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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 875470 times)
testerx
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December 12, 2013, 07:54:56 PM
 #3961

Also to put it into perspective 400 GH/s devliered 1 Nov would have net ~10.8 BTC for the month of November and another ~6.8 BTC for the month of December.  Had they actually shipped earlier it would have been an additional 0.5 BTC per day before 1 Nov.

Yes, but this is the world of bitcoin hardware where nobody has ever delivered on time ever (though KnC did come impressively close I will admit) where if you think about all the possible lost BTC you could have theoretically mined you surely go insane.  I'd be worth millions by now if BFL had delivered in 2012 like they had claimed but they didn't, and I'm not a millionaire but that's just how it goes.

Don't buy mining hardware assuming you'll be able to get whatever you paid in BTC back, I don't think any hardware has managed this except batch 1 and 2 avalons. 

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December 12, 2013, 07:58:25 PM
 #3962

Also to put it into perspective 400 GH/s devliered 1 Nov would have net ~10.8 BTC for the month of November and another ~6.8 BTC for the month of December.  Had they actually shipped earlier it would have been an additional 0.5 BTC per day before 1 Nov.

Yes, but this is the world of bitcoin hardware where nobody has ever delivered on time ever (though KnC did come impressively close I will admit) where if you think about all the possible lost BTC you could have theoretically mined you surely go insane.  I'd be worth millions by now if BFL had delivered in 2012 like they had claimed but they didn't, and I'm not a millionaire but that's just how it goes.

Don't buy mining hardware assuming you'll be able to get whatever you paid in BTC back, I don't think any hardware has managed this except batch 1 and 2 avalons. 

Not even batch 2 Avalons! My batch 2 Avalon has only made 70 coins and it isn't likely to make more than 1 or 2 more through the rest of its life.
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December 12, 2013, 08:10:11 PM
 #3963

I feel like the moral of the story is that no one should buy mining hardware until we hit mining hardware equilibrium where it is readily available for anyone who may want it.

I'm batch two with no MPP...

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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December 12, 2013, 08:23:18 PM
 #3964

I feel like the moral of the story is that no one should buy mining hardware until we hit mining hardware equilibrium where it is readily available for anyone who may want it.

I'm batch two with no MPP...

No, it's the opposite. Once we hit equilibrium, pretty much NO ONE will make money and those who do are the ones who have free electricity and cheap time.
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December 12, 2013, 08:36:39 PM
 #3965

So , If I'm getting it right , the most profitable way to mine is to sell your pickaxe!
Of , great !

For a limited time only I will share the secrets of my pickaxe revenue boosting system.  We all know that mining gold is getting harder and a pickaxe in January is probably only worth $3 per gigarock.  Honestly it is probably worth less than that but gold miners have gold fever and you can find enough people willing to pay $3 per gigarock in January.  Still is it your fault that you can't delivery until January and thus are limited to only $3 per GH/s (probably 1000% gross markup)?  Now some honest suckers might say "sorry you are going to have to live with "only" $10M in gross revenue for a couple months work".  You know what I say .... that is stupid honest sucker talk.  Don't listen to it for a second.  I am going to show you how you can double the $10M into $20M without delivering more or earlier.  Just free bonus money.

See the first thing you do is promise to deliver the pickaxes in October and mark them up from $3 per gigarock to a much more profitable $14 per gigarock.  Now you might be confused because you already know your pickaxes won't be ready until January so how can you promise October delivery?  It is what we in the creative pickaxing business call "telling your customers what they want to hear to get the moneyz", I have heard that honest suckers might call it lying, or fraud but I wouldn't know. Now this plan isn't for everyone, if you are looking for an honest profit where both you and your customers benefit then you should probably stop reading because this plan isn't for you.  Also if you are in that category want to buy some cheap pickaxes?  

Ok are all the honest suckers gone now?  Good now lets get down to business.  So instead of selling pickaxes in January for $3 per gigarock the revenue boosting secret is to pretend you will have them in Oct and offer them for $14 per gigarock.  We will "limit" this to half a million pickaxes.  We want to make it seem limited.  Nobody want to pay a premium and be at the end of the line.  Now if you get lucky some large group like IcePicking ("always bet on Ice") will do a lot of the work for you and buy about half of those early pickaxes.  Now just sell the other half retail.  Now some of those customers might be cautious so if sales are slow then give away some of the pickaxes for free as "protection".  Hang on trust me it will be worth it, these "free" pickaxes aren't going to make us a fortune at the expense of the customers who trust us.   See if the customers don't trust us they won't buy regardless but if they trust us but are worried about difficulty then the free pickaxes will seal the deal. So reserve 800K pickaxes for the PPP (Pickaxe Protection Plan).

Now you should know that after all this plays out as you know it will, your rep is ruined, so lets double down.   Your customers might not know you can't deliver on time but you do so don't hold anything back. You might as well offer "Dec" pickaxes you can't deliver either!  I mean if you are going to defraud one batch of customers why not defraud two for twice the profit and twice the fun?  So sell off the rest of your January pickaxes as "December" pickaxes and offer a deal of only $8 per gigarock (for a $3 per gigarock pickaxe).  See it is a "deal" it isn't as horribly bad as the first batch?  

Now stop a second and just think about the beauty of it.  We only have one box of January pickaxes.  That is it, yet with some creative pickaxing we have now sold two batches at different price points.   Some customers probably agonized over which was the better deal and they are all coming out of the same box!  ROFL! I mean all we have are January pickaxes, some just have an Oct sticker and some have a Dec sticker.  Smiley   See who says you can have fun making millions?

So lets punch this into the ole pickaxe calculator. The honest promise and delivery in January at a reasonable price nets us $10 million in revenue, but with some creative pickaxing we can still ship the same number of pickaxes at the same time but DOUBLE OUR REVENUE! Don't believe me?  Here is the creative math.  Honest (sucker) January delivery: 3.3 million pickaxes @ $3 per gigarock = ~$10M.  Creative Pickaxe Super Sales System:  0.5 million (promised for Oct) * $14 + 0.8 million * $0 (protection plan promised when we feel like it) + 2 million * $8 ("cheaper" batch 2 promised for Dec) = ~$20 million.

Both methods sell out our 3.3 million pickaxes.
Both methods don't ship until January (or maybe a few days prior).
The creative one makes twice as much money.

Now do you see the magic of creative pickaxing?   Well the bad news is if you want to get technical there is no such thing as something for nothing; this is just a wealth transfer from your customers to you under false pretenses (lawyers might call that fraud).  They never had a chance at getting units before January so $10M extra for "early" delivery is just a $10M reduction in net profit.  With mining margins as tight as they are that will be enough to push them into the red.  See they are paying $20M for pickaxes which really are only worth $10M because ... and this is the funny part ... they actually believed you when you said Oct and Dec delivery.   What a bunch of suckers.  

Of course the only downside is you have to deal with "whiners" who get mad when their Oct & Dec pickaxes doesn't arrive until January. You can't really blame them I mean the high priced pickaxes only make economical sense for the easier Oct rocks.  $14 axe in Oct = profit.  $3 axe in Janaury = profit.  $14 axe in January = profit (well profit for us and massive losses for them).  That is why the Pickaxes were only worth $3 per gigarock in January, but if we had sold them as January pickaxes we would have only made $3 per gigarock and that just isn't fair.  It isn't fair other companies were faster and thus were able to charge more.  I mean $10M with 1000% gross markup how many yachts can you buy with that.  The funniest part is many of your victims did the math and made all the right calculations.  They never would have paid $14 per gigarock for a January pickaxes because they KNEW it would be a loss.   Still with the ole switcheroo you can trick them to.  They have now absolutely no hope of even breaking even.  If you start to feel bad about all the loses your customers are taking and the fact that it was completely avoidable by being honest (and accepting a fair price for a fair product), just buy another sports car, or snort some more premium blow off an expensive hooker. Nobody said creative pickaxing was going to be easy, but a "bonus" $10M should help your guilty conscience.

Thanks for your taking your time to explain this.
It was a nice read like most of your posts , although the conclusion is that I bet on the wrong horse (this time at least).

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December 12, 2013, 08:38:51 PM
 #3966

what a pleasure to see someone receiving what a company promised to deliver in time they promised to deliver...   happy christmas !  thank you hashfast(slow...) ... thank you knc !

And you're supposed to be a knc shill?

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December 12, 2013, 08:39:12 PM
 #3967

So , If I'm getting it right , the most profitable way to mine is to sell your pickaxe!
Of , great !

For a limited time only I will share the secrets of my pickaxe revenue boosting system.  We all know that mining gold is getting harder and a pickaxe in January is probably only worth $3 per gigarock.  Honestly it is probably worth less than that but gold miners have gold fever and you can find enough people willing to pay $3 per gigarock in January.  Still is it your fault that you can't delivery until January and thus are limited to only $3 per GH/s (probably 1000% gross markup)?  Now some honest suckers might say "sorry you are going to have to live with "only" $10M in gross revenue for a couple months work".  You know what I say .... that is stupid honest sucker talk.  Don't listen to it for a second.  I am going to show you how you can double the $10M into $20M without delivering more or earlier.  Just free bonus money.

See the first thing you do is promise to deliver the pickaxes in October and mark them up from $3 per gigarock to a much more profitable $14 per gigarock.  Now you might be confused because you already know your pickaxes won't be ready until January so how can you promise October delivery?  It is what we in the creative pickaxing business call "telling your customers what they want to hear to get the moneyz", I have heard that honest suckers might call it lying, or fraud but I wouldn't know. Now this plan isn't for everyone, if you are looking for an honest profit where both you and your customers benefit then you should probably stop reading because this plan isn't for you.  Also if you are in that category want to buy some cheap pickaxes?  

Ok are all the honest suckers gone now?  Good now lets get down to business.  So instead of selling pickaxes in January for $3 per gigarock the revenue boosting secret is to pretend you will have them in Oct and offer them for $14 per gigarock.  We will "limit" this to half a million pickaxes.  We want to make it seem limited.  Nobody want to pay a premium and be at the end of the line.  Now if you get lucky some large group like IcePicking ("always bet on Ice") will do a lot of the work for you and buy about half of those early pickaxes.  Now just sell the other half retail.  Now some of those customers might be cautious so if sales are slow then give away some of the pickaxes for free as "protection".  Hang on trust me it will be worth it, these "free" pickaxes aren't going to make us a fortune at the expense of the customers who trust us.   See if the customers don't trust us they won't buy regardless but if they trust us but are worried about difficulty then the free pickaxes will seal the deal. So reserve 800K pickaxes for the PPP (Pickaxe Protection Plan).

Now you should know that after all this plays out as you know it will, your rep is ruined, so lets double down.   Your customers might not know you can't deliver on time but you do so don't hold anything back. You might as well offer "Dec" pickaxes you can't deliver either!  I mean if you are going to defraud one batch of customers why not defraud two for twice the profit and twice the fun?  So sell off the rest of your January pickaxes as "December" pickaxes and offer a deal of only $8 per gigarock (for a $3 per gigarock pickaxe).  See it is a "deal" it isn't as horribly bad as the first batch?  

Now stop a second and just think about the beauty of it.  We only have one box of January pickaxes.  That is it, yet with some creative pickaxing we have now sold two batches at different price points.   Some customers probably agonized over which was the better deal and they are all coming out of the same box!  ROFL! I mean all we have are January pickaxes, some just have an Oct sticker and some have a Dec sticker.  Smiley   See who says you can have fun making millions?

So lets punch this into the ole pickaxe calculator. The honest promise and delivery in January at a reasonable price nets us $10 million in revenue, but with some creative pickaxing we can still ship the same number of pickaxes at the same time but DOUBLE OUR REVENUE! Don't believe me?  Here is the creative math.  Honest (sucker) January delivery: 3.3 million pickaxes @ $3 per gigarock = ~$10M.  Creative Pickaxe Super Sales System:  0.5 million (promised for Oct) * $14 + 0.8 million * $0 (protection plan promised when we feel like it) + 2 million * $8 ("cheaper" batch 2 promised for Dec) = ~$20 million.

Both methods sell out our 3.3 million pickaxes.
Both methods don't ship until January (or maybe a few days prior).
The creative one makes twice as much money.

Now do you see the magic of creative pickaxing?   Well the bad news is if you want to get technical there is no such thing as something for nothing; this is just a wealth transfer from your customers to you under false pretenses (lawyers might call that fraud).  They never had a chance at getting units before January so $10M extra for "early" delivery is just a $10M reduction in net profit.  With mining margins as tight as they are that will be enough to push them into the red.  See they are paying $20M for pickaxes which really are only worth $10M because ... and this is the funny part ... they actually believed you when you said Oct and Dec delivery.   What a bunch of suckers.  

Of course the only downside is you have to deal with "whiners" who get mad when their Oct & Dec pickaxes doesn't arrive until January. You can't really blame them I mean the high priced pickaxes only make economical sense for the easier Oct rocks.  $14 axe in Oct = profit.  $3 axe in Janaury = profit.  $14 axe in January = profit (well profit for us and massive losses for them).  That is why the Pickaxes were only worth $3 per gigarock in January, but if we had sold them as January pickaxes we would have only made $3 per gigarock and that just isn't fair.  It isn't fair other companies were faster and thus were able to charge more.  I mean $10M with 1000% gross markup how many yachts can you buy with that.  The funniest part is many of your victims did the math and made all the right calculations.  They never would have paid $14 per gigarock for a January pickaxes because they KNEW it would be a loss.   Still with the ole switcheroo you can trick them to.  They have now absolutely no hope of even breaking even.  If you start to feel bad about all the loses your customers are taking and the fact that it was completely avoidable by being honest (and accepting a fair price for a fair product), just buy another sports car, or snort some more premium blow off an expensive hooker. Nobody said creative pickaxing was going to be easy, but a "bonus" $10M should help your guilty conscience.


I envy the way you summarised 200+ pages in 1 great post!

The fun part of bitcoin is ... it´s not about bitcoin!
“The best way to predict the future is to invent it.” – Alan Curtis Kay, 1971
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December 12, 2013, 09:01:25 PM
 #3968

I feel like the moral of the story is that no one should buy mining hardware until we hit mining hardware equilibrium where it is readily available for anyone who may want it.

I'm batch two with no MPP...

No, it's the opposite. Once we hit equilibrium, pretty much NO ONE will make money and those who do are the ones who have free electricity and cheap time.

If we'd approach an equilibrium, there should be opportunity to make a small profit for those who do it most efficiently. Cheap electricity will be a key factor, but not the only one. The problem however, is that we will likely overshoot any equilibrium, because people dont seem to mind pre ordering 6+ months ahead while underestimating how much is being ordered  and without minding paying (a lot) more for hardware than the bitcoins that hardware can generate cost on the exchanges.

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December 12, 2013, 09:07:55 PM
 #3969

I feel like the moral of the story is that no one should buy mining hardware until we hit mining hardware equilibrium where it is readily available for anyone who may want it.

I'm batch two with no MPP...

No, it's the opposite. Once we hit equilibrium, pretty much NO ONE will make money and those who do are the ones who have free electricity and cheap time.

If we'd approach an equilibrium, there should be opportunity to make a small profit for those who do it most efficiently. Cheap electricity will be a key factor, but not the only one. The problem however, is that we will likely overshoot any equilibrium, because people dont seem to mind pre ordering 6+ months ahead while underestimating how much is being ordered  and without minding paying (a lot) more for hardware than the bitcoins that hardware can generate cost on the exchanges.



Yes, exactly. Plus there are enough people out there who can't do math and want to jump on the bitcoin bandwagon who will continue to pay too much for miners keeping the price high.
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December 12, 2013, 09:39:43 PM
 #3970

Quote
GN chip bringup: Running two of the four die in the chip. Clocking it at 700mhz and .84v core voltage, it's doing 248Gh/s on only 2 dies!

yes, thats what i want to hear!
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December 12, 2013, 09:52:13 PM
 #3971

are my icedrill shares worth anything yet  Undecided

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December 12, 2013, 09:59:48 PM
 #3972

Each die has 96 cores, and each clock performs two hashes. Therefore with 2 dies running at 700Mhz should be achieving hashrates of 96*2*2*700=268.8GH/s. This means that either some of the cores are not working properly at all, or they are making errors. At the same error rate, and nominal clock of 550Mhz a hash rate of 194.9GH/s will be achieved, which is lower than the advertised 422.4GH/s. They will need to increase the frequency thus reducing the efficiency of the ASIC.
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December 12, 2013, 10:03:49 PM
 #3973

Not even batch 2 Avalons! My batch 2 Avalon has only made 70 coins and it isn't likely to make more than 1 or 2 more through the rest of its life.

It's all about the timing... Batch2 Wave1 was more expensive than Batch2 Wave2, and if you got it late you might have lost out some revenue but a Batch2 Wave1 unit should have brought in to date BTC 105 and the Batch2 Wave2 should have raked in BTC 93. How *late* did you get your unit to only have BTC 70?
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December 12, 2013, 10:38:09 PM
 #3974

what a pleasure to see someone receiving what a company promised to deliver in time they promised to deliver...   happy christmas !  thank you hashfast(slow...) ... thank you knc !

And you're supposed to be a knc shill?

no no Smiley= meme pas ...
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December 12, 2013, 10:57:56 PM
 #3975

Each die has 96 cores, and each clock performs two hashes. Therefore with 2 dies running at 700Mhz should be achieving hashrates of 96*2*2*700=268.8GH/s. This means that either some of the cores are not working properly at all, or they are making errors. At the same error rate, and nominal clock of 550Mhz a hash rate of 194.9GH/s will be achieved, which is lower than the advertised 422.4GH/s. They will need to increase the frequency thus reducing the efficiency of the ASIC.

Well no ASIC has 100% core yield.  It just doesn't happen.  The 550 Mhz is only "nominal" in the sense of it is the starting point.  They are still running under 0.85v which is the nominal voltage for 28nm TSMC HP process so if they can get 700 Mhz out if then there is no real reason to go slower.   Ultimately they will have to find a sweet spot between power, error rate, and raw clock and have the chips target that.  The problem w/ HF was never the hardware, they seem to have some talented engineers.  The problem was the sleazy and dishonest way they went about selling off stock they knew they couldn't deliver upon.
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December 12, 2013, 11:10:42 PM
 #3976

HashFast ‏@HashFast 8 min

Golden Nonce board bringup: board on the test bench. http://t.co/RvlUJCHiKG
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December 12, 2013, 11:24:46 PM
 #3977

HashFast ‏@HashFast 8 min

Golden Nonce board bringup: board on the test bench. http://t.co/RvlUJCHiKG
On top of the fans in this image:



are those cobwebs or is that smoke?
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December 12, 2013, 11:28:07 PM
 #3978

The problem w/ HF was never the hardware, they seem to have some talented engineers.  The problem was the sleazy and dishonest way they went about selling off stock they knew they couldn't deliver upon.

^ this

I'm happy to see this product come together and I have no doubt it will be high quality so congrats to HF for that. At the same time FU HF for playing dirty marketing games with what could have been your most loyal customer-base. One BFL is more than enough.
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December 12, 2013, 11:28:26 PM
 #3979

HashFast ‏@HashFast 8 min

Golden Nonce board bringup: board on the test bench. http://t.co/RvlUJCHiKG
On top of the fans in this image:


are those cobwebs or is that smoke?
Looks like tape.
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December 12, 2013, 11:31:31 PM
 #3980

Also to put it into perspective 400 GH/s devliered 1 Nov would have net ~10.8 BTC for the month of November and another ~6.8 BTC for the month of December.  Had they actually shipped earlier it would have been an additional 0.5 BTC per day before 1 Nov.

Yes, but this is the world of bitcoin hardware where nobody has ever delivered on time ever (though KnC did come impressively close I will admit) where if you think about all the possible lost BTC you could have theoretically mined you surely go insane...

This is not entirely true.  The most recent two ASIC companies to develop their own chips, KNC and Bitfury were no more than a few days late with shipping the bulk of their orders.  That's a pretty good trend!  And that has now become the new standard to bear... Not the old BFL/Avalon past history repeating itself.

Can we stop making sweeping generalizations and put this tired old cliche to bed now?
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