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Author Topic: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s  (Read 865466 times)
cedivad
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July 22, 2014, 07:04:31 PM
 #10201

If they really invest $10M, and if they really can't take value out of the company before paying us, what could go wrong? How could they screw us? Wouldn't they have every interest not to?

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Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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July 22, 2014, 07:38:53 PM
 #10202

@Minor Miner:
I don't have any magic insight here.  Having worked for a large company, I have experienced bankruptcies of small companies and creditors seem to only get pennies on the dollars after the dust settles.  If you are right about their being a lot of assets that can get liquidated at good prices and distributed to the creditors for a significant percentage of what creditors are owed, then I agree this would be a very simple solution with little risk.  I just don't have faith that that will happen.  There is typically a big difference in the value of inventory versus what the inventory can be sold quickly for.

Listening on the call happening now.  Amazed that only one person is asking questions.

“July 22 at 10AM PST/1PM EST, so that you can ask any questions or register any complaints directly with the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Strategy Officer of Liquidbits.
(Conference #: (712) 432-1500, Participant Access Code: 700281#).”

Isn't it as simple as Liquid Bits is the only offer on the table other than chapter 7 liquidation, where you would probably get pennies on the dollar.  The lb proposal has the potential to get back a double digit percentage of your cash outlay.  Seems like a reasonable risk to a terrible alternative.  My bigger concern is that the longer this takes to get to conclusion the less that HF chips will be worth.
Had previously scheduled meetings and LB's did not answer even my simplest question here.   I guess because it is true their post here is deceptive and does not match what they filed in court.
Interesting, you have a brand new account and think it is a GREAT deal and that in liquidation we could only get "pennies on the dollar".   Why don't you share the math behind that statement.   LB refused to detail out their valuation of the the inventory, so where are you getting this BS from?
There are 29,000 chips plus A LOT MORE ASSETS.
There is likely $10,000,000 owed to creditors (many claims are likely overstated) and the $2,000,000 is already IN THE CREDITORS' CLAIMS. 
Just selling the inventory to bidders will net $7 to 9 Million.    That is 60 to 80 cents on the dollar (because lawyers etc. need to be paid).
Then every shareholder likely owes all the money they took from the company BACK to the estate.   This is substantially more than $2,000,000 which gets you to all of us being repaid fully.
This is before we sell the IP etc.

That sounds a LOT better, than maybe, perhaps, possibly getting somewhere between 0 cents and 100 cents from a company that is unknown to you and still lists their primary place of business as a residential condo worth $275,000 in a building that does not allow you to run a business out of it.

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July 22, 2014, 07:40:30 PM
 #10203


[/quote]


There really isn't any justification for the creditors to finance LB for the next 2 years for less than we could recover selling everything today.
[/quote]

But who is willing to purchase the entire inventory of chips TODAY from estate?  LB appears to be the only dog in this fight as HF and LB both claim that the inventory has been shopped around to multiple buyers with no interest.  Debtor in possession financing also appears to be a no go in order for HF to build them out themselves.   Time is of the essence on this matter.

LB is also willing to waive their $5.3 million claim on the estate, so they are essentially trading their equity stake in estate for usable inventory(with additional investment).  By my calculations they are getting these chips for market value of ~ $200 chip ($5.3 million/27k chips +/-).  I agree that a 2yr. time frame for full payback is too extended, but they do make concessions for this contingency including full payment of equity units prior to LB(newco) ever taking a dividend or disbursement and having the promissory note secured against assets of the "newco".  LB can't be expected to take all the upfront risks on this proposal and since they are taking risk capital to build out these miners, they are entitled to un-guaranteed longer term gains.  Time is of the essence on this matter.

What exactly is the sticking point for the creditor's committee on this proposed sale?  it sounds like it is time duration on note/equity units? Please enlighten us...  have not seen any update on committee website either?
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July 22, 2014, 07:41:44 PM
 #10204

It really doesn't matter if they are investing $10M or $100M.  The most the creditors every see is $6M, in 2 years.  In exchange we give them $9M of inventory and IP rights.

Do you have a buyer at $9mm for the inventory and IP?

How did you come to believe that the inventory and IP is worth $9mm?

Isn't $6mm better than nothing?
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July 22, 2014, 07:54:43 PM
 #10205

It really doesn't matter if they are investing $10M or $100M.  The most the creditors every see is $6M, in 2 years.  In exchange we give them $9M of inventory and IP rights.

Do you have a buyer at $9mm for the inventory and IP?

How did you come to believe that the inventory and IP is worth $9mm?

Isn't $6mm better than nothing?

Agreed, Im not sure how $9mm was decided for the inventory but if its true then I think we are best off to just liquidate all inventory and distribute the money.

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July 22, 2014, 07:56:45 PM
 #10206

It really doesn't matter if they are investing $10M or $100M.  The most the creditors every see is $6M, in 2 years.  In exchange we give them $9M of inventory and IP rights.
The problem is that you don't know if the assets are really worth $9M, do you? I have to prefer $6M "guaranteed" (if they spent $10M into the mine they would probably be "guaranteed") rather than 3-9M maybe.

If it was $6M today, I would agree.  But it's a promise of $6M in a couple years, and possibly nothing if something goes wrong in that time frame.

LOL it's yet another preorder that will probably never arrive!

LTCgear.com Review http://ltcgear.co.ukhttp://ltcgear.com/?apage=120 - 160mh/s for $850 use coupon code "anniversary1yr" - Active Multi Algorithm cloud mining in Scrypt, X11 and Scrypt-N - ROI in 5 Weeks
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July 22, 2014, 08:08:31 PM
 #10207

There are sell-side brokers that would research the most Likely buyers and facilitate exploratory acquisition meeting etc, providing the sellers are in agreement to go down this road with another adviser, if they have already tried to find a buyer themselves and have failed this sounds like it would be a good option to create a few competitive bids for the inventory of chips & IP etc. A good example of such a Broker is www.bcmscorp.com it would have to be a fast track campaign though!

LTCgear.com Review http://ltcgear.co.ukhttp://ltcgear.com/?apage=120 - 160mh/s for $850 use coupon code "anniversary1yr" - Active Multi Algorithm cloud mining in Scrypt, X11 and Scrypt-N - ROI in 5 Weeks
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July 22, 2014, 08:13:19 PM
 #10208

And basically if the sale is approved the $6M would be holded into bitcoin and distributed at whatever value it is two years from now?

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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July 22, 2014, 08:18:23 PM
 #10209

And basically if the sale is approved the $6M would be holded into bitcoin and distributed at whatever value it is two years from now?

It's all "Jam tomorrow" (British saying) and nothing today, far too risky if you ask me, it is just like an Earn-out with far to many things that could go wrong and we would not have any control over what happens, at least now we have some say in what the out come will be! I vote liquidate or find another buyer that is willing to pay Now not in 2 years time! Etc.

LTCgear.com Review http://ltcgear.co.ukhttp://ltcgear.com/?apage=120 - 160mh/s for $850 use coupon code "anniversary1yr" - Active Multi Algorithm cloud mining in Scrypt, X11 and Scrypt-N - ROI in 5 Weeks
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July 22, 2014, 08:20:14 PM
 #10210

Yes, let's suppose that LB puts the $6M in an account for our benefit, two years goes by and the value is $20M (as per their simulations (haha)). Who guarantees us that they don't get hacked and they don't loose the private key? Meh...

And evaluating the chips without the details of the new board design that should halve the costs is more voodoo than what I'm used to. (And I got used to a lot of hashfast-related voodoo!)

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
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July 22, 2014, 08:20:56 PM
 #10211

It really doesn't matter if they are investing $10M or $100M.  The most the creditors every see is $6M, in 2 years.  In exchange we give them $9M of inventory and IP rights.
Do you have a buyer at $9mm for the inventory and IP?
How did you come to believe that the inventory and IP is worth $9mm?
Isn't $6mm better than nothing?

There is sworn testimony that is the value.  I do not see any better indication than that currently.   Perhaps you could list it all and everyone could decide for themselves The value. 


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July 22, 2014, 08:27:20 PM
 #10212

It really doesn't matter if they are investing $10M or $100M.  The most the creditors every see is $6M, in 2 years.  In exchange we give them $9M of inventory and IP rights.

Do you have a buyer at $9mm for the inventory and IP?

How did you come to believe that the inventory and IP is worth $9mm?

Isn't $6mm better than nothing?

Are you an investor in Liquidbits?

Do you often ask a series of stupid questions that are factually inaccurate, and have already been addressed in the thread?
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July 22, 2014, 08:43:49 PM
 #10213

Do you often ask a series of stupid questions that are factually inaccurate, and have already been addressed in the thread?

I'm simply trying to understand where this $9mm figure came from and if there is a buyer offering it today.

From my calculations, I can buy in stock equipment from Bitmain at $1/Gh + power supply. This equipment can be air cooled and doesn't require any fancy water cooled solution to work.

I can buy AM chips at $0.35/Gh which would be equivalent to purchasing HF chips except for the fact that the boards for HF chips are more complicated than for Bitmain or AM chips. I'll be overly fair and say the HF chips are worth the same.

27,000 chips * 500Gh per chip * .35 == $4,725,000 USD

This price is only relevant if you actually have a buyer who has 20mW of data center space and enough capital to build boards, coolers, PDUs, PSUs, cabling, etc.

Seems to me that there aren't very many people who have all of these pieces ready to go. It takes months of work and planning to build even a 350Th/s mine.

So it seems you are valuing the IP at $4,275,000. Again, who is going to purchase the IP at this price? Do you have a buyer?

If that is a dumb question, I'll happily leave the thread.
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July 22, 2014, 08:51:01 PM
 #10214

Do you often ask a series of stupid questions that are factually inaccurate, and have already been addressed in the thread?

I'm simply trying to understand where this $9mm figure came from and if there is a buyer offering it today.

From my calculations, I can buy in stock equipment from Bitmain at $1/Gh + power supply. This equipment can be air cooled and doesn't require any fancy water cooled solution to work.

I can buy AM chips at $0.35/Gh which would be equivalent to purchasing HF chips except for the fact that the boards for HF chips are more complicated than for Bitmain or AM chips. I'll be overly fair and say the HF chips are worth the same.

27,000 chips * 500Gh per chip * .35 == $4,725,000 USD

This price is only relevant if you actually have a buyer who has 20mW of data center space and enough capital to build boards, coolers, PDUs, PSUs, cabling, etc.

Seems to me that there aren't very many people who have all of these pieces ready to go. It takes months of work and planning to build even a 350Th/s mine.

So it seems you are valuing the IP at $4,275,000. Again, who is going to purchase the IP at this price? Do you have a buyer?

If that is a dumb question, I'll happily leave the thread.

You are an investor in Liquidbits, so you know very well that you are only addressing a portion of the assets that will be sold.

I am constrained by confidentiality agreements so I am unable to make it clear to people how stunningly disingenuous you are being.
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July 22, 2014, 08:57:16 PM
 #10215

Do you often ask a series of stupid questions that are factually inaccurate, and have already been addressed in the thread?

I'm simply trying to understand where this $9mm figure came from and if there is a buyer offering it today.

From my calculations, I can buy in stock equipment from Bitmain at $1/Gh + power supply. This equipment can be air cooled and doesn't require any fancy water cooled solution to work.

I can buy AM chips at $0.35/Gh which would be equivalent to purchasing HF chips except for the fact that the boards for HF chips are more complicated than for Bitmain or AM chips. I'll be overly fair and say the HF chips are worth the same.

27,000 chips * 500Gh per chip * .35 == $4,725,000 USD

This price is only relevant if you actually have a buyer who has 20mW of data center space and enough capital to build boards, coolers, PDUs, PSUs, cabling, etc.

Seems to me that there aren't very many people who have all of these pieces ready to go. It takes months of work and planning to build even a 350Th/s mine.

So it seems you are valuing the IP at $4,275,000. Again, who is going to purchase the IP at this price? Do you have a buyer?

If that is a dumb question, I'll happily leave the thread.

Who says it is advanteous  to sell sell to one buyer instead of many?    The IP also has value and there are recoveries.    So by your own math,  liquidation gives creditors 70 to 80 cents on the dollar up front vs. 0 to 100 in two years. 
Liquidbits,  if they actually were capitalized properly could simply offer 6 million to buy out all the other creditors Now and then they can do what they want.  That is not that much if they actually had the money.



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July 22, 2014, 09:17:31 PM
 #10216

You are an investor in Liquidbits, so you know very well that you are only addressing a portion of the assets that will be sold.

I am constrained by confidentiality agreements so I am unable to make it clear to people how stunningly disingenuous you are being.

Spot on! BFL's spirit will never die!

iCEBREAKER is a troll! He and cypherdoc helped HashFast scam 50 Million $ from its customers !
H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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July 22, 2014, 10:03:26 PM
 #10217

Do you often ask a series of stupid questions that are factually inaccurate, and have already been addressed in the thread?

I'm simply trying to understand where this $9mm figure came from and if there is a buyer offering it today.

From my calculations, I can buy in stock equipment from Bitmain at $1/Gh + power supply. This equipment can be air cooled and doesn't require any fancy water cooled solution to work.

I can buy AM chips at $0.35/Gh which would be equivalent to purchasing HF chips except for the fact that the boards for HF chips are more complicated than for Bitmain or AM chips. I'll be overly fair and say the HF chips are worth the same.

27,000 chips * 500Gh per chip * .35 == $4,725,000 USD

This price is only relevant if you actually have a buyer who has 20mW of data center space and enough capital to build boards, coolers, PDUs, PSUs, cabling, etc.

Seems to me that there aren't very many people who have all of these pieces ready to go. It takes months of work and planning to build even a 350Th/s mine.

So it seems you are valuing the IP at $4,275,000. Again, who is going to purchase the IP at this price? Do you have a buyer?

If that is a dumb question, I'll happily leave the thread.

Using your own math above liquidation is the best option.
You put 500gh per chip but it is 750 so your calculation should 6.4 million just from chips.   Your numbers.  
Plus 2 million for the IP.   Then there are the recoveries from the shareholders still to be factored in.   Without recoveries with your numbers liquidation gives us a far better deal.  Around 80 cents on the dollar with upside being the recoveries.  


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nwfella
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July 22, 2014, 10:06:14 PM
 #10218

Hell at this point I'll take whatever I can get back on my wasted babyjet+ satoshi's.

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HardwareReviewer
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July 22, 2014, 10:20:19 PM
 #10219

Do you often ask a series of stupid questions that are factually inaccurate, and have already been addressed in the thread?

I'm simply trying to understand where this $9mm figure came from and if there is a buyer offering it today.

From my calculations, I can buy in stock equipment from Bitmain at $1/Gh + power supply. This equipment can be air cooled and doesn't require any fancy water cooled solution to work.

I can buy AM chips at $0.35/Gh which would be equivalent to purchasing HF chips except for the fact that the boards for HF chips are more complicated than for Bitmain or AM chips. I'll be overly fair and say the HF chips are worth the same.

27,000 chips * 500Gh per chip * .35 == $4,725,000 USD

This price is only relevant if you actually have a buyer who has 20mW of data center space and enough capital to build boards, coolers, PDUs, PSUs, cabling, etc.

Seems to me that there aren't very many people who have all of these pieces ready to go. It takes months of work and planning to build even a 350Th/s mine.

So it seems you are valuing the IP at $4,275,000. Again, who is going to purchase the IP at this price? Do you have a buyer?

If that is a dumb question, I'll happily leave the thread.

You are an investor in Liquidbits, so you know very well that you are only addressing a portion of the assets that will be sold.

I am constrained by confidentiality agreements so I am unable to make it clear to people how stunningly disingenuous you are being.

HashFast part II: the ugliness continues...

Prepare to enter a world of stress
Ilan1
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July 22, 2014, 10:40:11 PM
 #10220

Hell at this point I'll take whatever I can get back on my wasted babyjet+ satoshi's.

+1 let's just get back whatever we can now and put and end to this nightmare of a Hashfast scam saga!
I just want to get something back and put the whole thing behind me!! I must say it had been a very expensive life lesson, I will never jump so quickly into buying product again before carrying out proper Due Dilligence and seeing proof of others receiving theirs!

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