[Closed]R17x: Black Arrow Prospero X-3 <DZMC Exclusive> $130 / 40GHS

[slayernine]

I'm hoping that we just mine and see what we can get.  I'm not opposed to listing miners on ebay and selling one at a time, sounds like a reasonable plan while we mine.

[martin1024]

Black Arrow in bitcoin/altcoin media, and not really in good words...

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/black-arrow-new-bitcoin-mining-manufacturer-dark-problems/2014/07/15

[howardb]

This is what i'm talking about on communication cockups bob!! When every mining day counts and you've vanished on us again, with no idea how/when you are taking instruction on what people want to do! Frankly it's the reason your getting such a bad reputation.

[bobsag3]

Well based on the number of PMs and posts saying how no one wants to pay anything else in extra, then I guess we are going with the default of staying with the X3s.

[shelldrake]

I'm content to run with the default setup. 

[Airwhale]

I think you all are crazy,  for what it is worth.

You are giving up about twice the hashpower for only slight heatsink costs.  Have you guys done the math?  What projections have this course of action making more money (or,  more likely, losing less money) than converting to chips?  I suppose if Marto takes over a month in completing the boards?

[glongsword]

I think you all are crazy,  for what it is worth.

You are giving up about twice the hashpower for only slight heatsink costs.  Have you guys done the math?  What projections have this course of action making more money (or,  more likely, losing less money) than converting to chips?  I suppose if Marto takes over a month in completing the boards?

Hi I Haven't been following this, how do we vote?

[bobsag3]

I think you all are crazy,  for what it is worth.

You are giving up about twice the hashpower for only slight heatsink costs.  Have you guys done the math?  What projections have this course of action making more money (or,  more likely, losing less money) than converting to chips?  I suppose if Marto takes over a month in completing the boards?

Hi I Haven't been following this, how do we vote?

Enough of the major remaining shareholders vote no to paying more, so unless I can somehow swing paying for heatsinks with chips, its a no go. IM already going out on a limb and providing a serious $ amount in PSUs at no charge, so we are at our limits.

[philipma1957]

I think you all are crazy,  for what it is worth.

You are giving up about twice the hashpower for only slight heatsink costs.  Have you guys done the math?  What projections have this course of action making more money (or,  more likely, losing less money) than converting to chips?  I suppose if Marto takes over a month in completing the boards?

it is not about giving a 3 or 4  thousand to double the hash.  The time it takes is the issue.  there are 765 shares   about 100k in usd.

so for the sake of argument we all kick in 10 bucks and it is all the money needed.  the hash jumps from  38 th to 60th . 

if the gear uses 1 watt a hash and we wait 25 extra days we don't gain a thing.

bob gave us two choices  both = you lose fiat on round 17.  So why hand out more money and wait more time.

If we were told no delay the gear will be here in two days I think many would jump on it.

And even though the antminer s-3 is a bit worse then advertised  it can do 450 gh at 340 watts.   mine come on fri.   900 gh at 680 watts = .75 gh a watt

thousands will be mining by monday.  why should we pay more money for gear that does not compete with that and it will be delayed if we pay.

I am not giving more money for this r17  not for a longer wait time for power hungry gear.

[danleuthner]

I think you all are crazy,  for what it is worth.

You are giving up about twice the hashpower for only slight heatsink costs.  Have you guys done the math?  What projections have this course of action making more money (or,  more likely, losing less money) than converting to chips?  I suppose if Marto takes over a month in completing the boards?

I am not giving more money for this r17  not for a longer wait time for power hungry gear.

when are the x-3 coming, that is not even a done deal... we might get the hashing faster by taking the chips... and then having the boards made...

[philipma1957]

I think you all are crazy,  for what it is worth.

You are giving up about twice the hashpower for only slight heatsink costs.  Have you guys done the math?  What projections have this course of action making more money (or,  more likely, losing less money) than converting to chips?  I suppose if Marto takes over a month in completing the boards?

I am not giving more money for this r17  not for a longer wait time for power hungry gear.

when are the x-3 coming, that is not even a done deal... we might get the hashing faster by taking the chips... and then having the boards made...

yep  just like I said we have two poor choices.  both will result in losing money.  (unless coins jump)

I can live with a loss.   adding to a loss is a no go for me.


third choice is sue black arrow   which is also a  pretty shitty choice.

[Rea]

I think bobsag3 or thomas_was saying that we would get more hashrate from getting the chips instead of the machines. Even if extra fees are taken out per payout i would think it would even out.

[vulgartrendkill]

I think bobsag3 or thomas_was saying that we would get more hashrate from getting the chips instead of the machines. Even if extra fees are taken out per payout i would think it would even out.

I think that since I'm already seriously out of pocket, adding to that by getting chips to marto for assembly (and paying more money!)  Is madness. 

Theres a saying that in terms of bitcoin mining I try to stick by- Never throw good money after bad money.

[howardb]

I don't know why it had to be an all or nothing solution, surely we could have split based on who wanted boards and who wanted to stay with R17 (subject to only splitting whole X3's), all it needed was a vote! or was that just too much effort? This group has been characterised by a complete lack of democracy and transparency.

[philipma1957]

I think bobsag3 or thomas_was saying that we would get more hashrate from getting the chips instead of the machines. Even if extra fees are taken out per payout i would think it would even out.

I think that since I'm already seriously out of pocket, adding to that by getting chips to marto for assembly (and paying more money!)  Is madness.  

Theres a saying that in terms of bitcoin mining I try to stick by- Never throw good money after bad money.

I would send my 10 chips and pay more money if the hash was 2x and I got the gear no later then aug 1.  plus the power was .8 watts


As far as I can tell none of the above is offered.

 I have 2 s-3's coming on fri .. I have coupons for 2 more.

They will do  1800 gh at 1360 watts.

Sending money to turn my 5x shares from 250gh-300gh? to  500- 1000gh?    


 okay  lets say I agree.

 1)what money do you want?

2)  the exact figures?

3)100 more usd?  150 more usd?

4) tell me the exact amount need for 5 shares  and for that matter the exact amount needed for 765 shares.

5)tell me the exact amount of hash for the 5/765 shares.

6)tell me the fees to mine.

7)tell me the day we start to hash.

8)tell me the power this gear uses.

I can't see sending more cash in without clear answers to all of the above.  and an escrow bond for part of the money we send in.

and even if you give a clear answer to every question above.

the math may show that the plan still gives a loss.  

this (mining) has become a very hard business   margins are tiny.

on paper both plans lose money today.

 the mine with what is due us will lose money.
 the improve the gear and mine later will lose money.

the simple reason is neither plan gives us gear as good as the s-3.  

but with all that  I will go along with the groups wishes whatever they are:

 as long as my 8 points above are done.

  I think they are fair points.



I just read howardB's post  above and he has good points.

[bobsag3]

I don't know why it had to be an all or nothing solution, surely we could have split based on who wanted boards and who wanted to stay with R17 (subject to only splitting whole X3's), all it needed was a vote! or was that just too much effort? This group has been characterised by a complete lack of democracy and transparency.

Either I get yelled at for not asking enough options, or for taking too long to make the decisions. You cant have both in this world, if I waited to take a vote from every person and split it accordingly, we would be looking at mid-August then.

[philipma1957]

I don't know why it had to be an all or nothing solution, surely we could have split based on who wanted boards and who wanted to stay with R17 (subject to only splitting whole X3's), all it needed was a vote! or was that just too much effort? This group has been characterised by a complete lack of democracy and transparency.

Either I get yelled at for not asking enough options, or for taking too long to make the decisions. You cant have both in this world, if I waited to take a vote from every person and split it accordingly, we would be looking at mid-August then.

so mid august is 2 jumps.  well we are looking at a 7% on the 26th   of july and  for aug 15th a ? jump say 10 percent.  so  a diff of 22000 vs the current 17336  is pretty certain.  and do nothing low number is 38th for the 765 shares.

that comes to about 6 btc a week.    say aug 14 to aug 21 then a diff jump say 10 percent more to 25000 we then earn 5.28 btc for a week maybe another 5.28 btc then another jump.

we are up to sept 4 or 5 and we earned back 16.5btc  on the 38th not counting power  a th is 1000 watts 38 = 38k watts an hour 21 days or 1532 usd   if a recall you pay 8 cents a kwatt.

so the 16.5btc earned drops by  2.5 minimum for the power  total of 14btc to be split over 765 shares or  .0183 btc a share by sept 6th or so.  if all goes right 5x shares is .091 by sept   that is 54 bucks

 so My shares are 630 usd  so if we can mine 10 weeks and jumps are low I am ⅓ back at best.   if I allow the ba gear and don't upgrade.

 If I up grade what is my cost for 5 shares?  100, 50, 150?   anything more the 50 bucks or 10 bucks a share would be nuts.   since at best I go from maybe .2 btc return to .4 btc returned . 

The number above are rough but close and if anything high on the btc returned.

now if I was told with an escrow backed guaranty the new gear gets  .7 watts not 1 watt or .9 watts.  I will toss money at it.  and not much money 10 maybe 11 dollars a share.  which has to be escrow backed.

just does not pay off to get gear at 1 watt or .9 watts.

[howardb]

I don't know why it had to be an all or nothing solution, surely we could have split based on who wanted boards and who wanted to stay with R17 (subject to only splitting whole X3's), all it needed was a vote! or was that just too much effort? This group has been characterised by a complete lack of democracy and transparency.

Either I get yelled at for not asking enough options, or for taking too long to make the decisions. You cant have both in this world, if I waited to take a vote from every person and split it accordingly, we would be looking at mid-August then.

Only because you are so friggen disorganised, trying to run a business via forums is just plain stupid! Over on Kncminer we have a vote website and email list, any issue it goes up and is voted on in twenty four hours or so! Here we spend days/weeks/months trying to work out what you are doing and how we have our say with OUR money, and then get promptly ignored because your opinion seems to be the 'swing vote' on everything! Nobody EVER asked you to take decisions for us.

[howardb]

I don't know why it had to be an all or nothing solution, surely we could have split based on who wanted boards and who wanted to stay with R17 (subject to only splitting whole X3's), all it needed was a vote! or was that just too much effort? This group has been characterised by a complete lack of democracy and transparency.

Either I get yelled at for not asking enough options, or for taking too long to make the decisions. You cant have both in this world, if I waited to take a vote from every person and split it accordingly, we would be looking at mid-August then.

so mid august is 2 jumps.  well we are looking at a 7% on the 26th   of july and  for aug 15th a ? jump say 10 percent.  so  a diff of 22000 vs the current 17336  is pretty certain.  and do nothing low number is 38th for the 765 shares.

that comes to about 6 btc a week.    say aug 14 to aug 21 then a diff jump say 10 percent more to 25000 we then earn 5.28 btc for a week maybe another 5.28 btc then another jump.

we are up to sept 4 or 5 and we earned back 16.5btc  on the 38th not counting power  a th is 1000 watts 38 = 38k watts an hour 21 days or 1532 usd   if a recall you pay 8 cents a kwatt.

so the 16.5btc earned drops by  2.5 minimum for the power  total of 14btc to be split over 765 shares or  .0183 btc a share by sept 6th or so.  if all goes right 5x shares is .091 by sept   that is 54 bucks

 so My shares are 630 usd  so if we can mine 10 weeks and jumps are low I am ⅓ back at best.   if I allow the ba gear and don't upgrade.

 If I up grade what is my cost for 5 shares?  100, 50, 150?   anything more the 50 bucks or 10 bucks a share would be nuts.   since at best I go from maybe .2 btc return to .4 btc returned . 

The number above are rough but close and if anything high on the btc returned.

now if I was told with an escrow backed guaranty the new gear gets  .7 watts not 1 watt or .9 watts.  I will toss money at it.  and not much money 10 maybe 11 dollars a share.  which has to be escrow backed.

just does not pay off to get gear at 1 watt or .9 watts.

You know those boards can be du-tuned down to 0.5 watt/GH?

[philipma1957]

I don't know why it had to be an all or nothing solution, surely we could have split based on who wanted boards and who wanted to stay with R17 (subject to only splitting whole X3's), all it needed was a vote! or was that just too much effort? This group has been characterised by a complete lack of democracy and transparency.

Either I get yelled at for not asking enough options, or for taking too long to make the decisions. You cant have both in this world, if I waited to take a vote from every person and split it accordingly, we would be looking at mid-August then.

so mid august is 2 jumps.  well we are looking at a 7% on the 26th   of july and  for aug 15th a ? jump say 10 percent.  so  a diff of 22000 vs the current 17336  is pretty certain.  and do nothing low number is 38th for the 765 shares.

that comes to about 6 btc a week.    say aug 14 to aug 21 then a diff jump say 10 percent more to 25000 we then earn 5.28 btc for a week maybe another 5.28 btc then another jump.

we are up to sept 4 or 5 and we earned back 16.5btc  on the 38th not counting power  a th is 1000 watts 38 = 38k watts an hour 21 days or 1532 usd   if a recall you pay 8 cents a kwatt.

so the 16.5btc earned drops by  2.5 minimum for the power  total of 14btc to be split over 765 shares or  .0183 btc a share by sept 6th or so.  if all goes right 5x shares is .091 by sept   that is 54 bucks

 so My shares are 630 usd  so if we can mine 10 weeks and jumps are low I am ⅓ back at best.   if I allow the ba gear and don't upgrade.

 If I up grade what is my cost for 5 shares?  100, 50, 150?   anything more the 50 bucks or 10 bucks a share would be nuts.   since at best I go from maybe .2 btc return to .4 btc returned .  

The number above are rough but close and if anything high on the btc returned.

now if I was told with an escrow backed guaranty the new gear gets  .7 watts not 1 watt or .9 watts.  I will toss money at it.  and not much money 10 maybe 11 dollars a share.  which has to be escrow backed.

just does not pay off to get gear at 1 watt or .9 watts.

You know those boards can be du-tuned down to 0.5 watt/GH?

yes I do.  so if we upgrade and mine at about 1 watt then switch to .5 watts we last longer.

But A)  I have 5 shares 10 chips.

B)  what is the per share upgrade price ?  10 usd a share ? 12 usd a share? 8 usd a share?  

c) what assurances do I get that this 10 usd a share does not go poof?  so far none?

 if it is 10 bucks a share  it is 10 x 765 = 7650   let bob escrow it.

 I rather pay 11 a share with escrow bond then 10 with no bond.

 D) string the ifs:
 1) pay 11 a share  not 10  bonded
 2) the gear gets built and hashes by aug 15
3) it does as advertised at 0.9-1.0 a gh
4) we down clock to .5-.6 later
5) we still lose money unless coins go up.

If it is ten bucks a share more (plus some of the chips) for this to be done it is only  7650. for about 100,000 on the hook


lets say it all happens and we end up with  100gh a share not 50 gh.  and the share costs us 130 +10 = 140

lets say it runs on the 15 of aug.    at 10% diff run to oct 13 we get back 60 bucks out of 140

  run to dec  5 we get back 90 bucks out of 140 . down clock on the 5th of dec  it earns about 20 more.

so we get back 110 .  if all of the above happens with a great upgrade.

hey as long as most understand this is going to lose money either way .

 I would go for the upgrade  at 10 a share but buy a escrow bond at 10%.

 So if the upgrade fails I don't lose the 10 a share extra.

(assuming you want the 10 bucks a share to do this upgrade)  Someone would buy the bond. plenty of betters out there.