NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[lucky88888]

Ouch, something strange happening on eMunie ship. Crew members are quitting, Dan again is crying like a girl in trollbox 

What's going on all of a sudden?!?  Ethereum pushed back the IPO too.   

Voodoo magic. BCNext cursed them all?

Didn't someone say something about their IPO that will get them in trouble with the authorities? Maybe it's happening?

I am no programmer, but i have a proposal to solve the mixing problem.

How about a pooled approach that is not traceable?

We have at specific times per day (or maybe once a day if traffic is low) a mixing event where everyone can send their coins to an automated mixing address that collects all coins. Once the specific time comes, the logic of the address creates packs of 10000 NXTs and sends them to specific addresses. For example, if you send 100.000 NXT to that address, your coins will be split into 10k pieces on 10 addresses. Those addresses are generated by the mixing algo and the private code is sent to original sender via encrypted address that is only readable if the private key of the original address is known.

Rules:
You can send whatever amount between 1000 and higher
The splitting follows those rules, Balance/10000 --> remainder/1000 --> remainder /100 --> rest is donation(? or maybe remainder/10?)
E.g. If you send 17.200 then you get 1 10k, 7 1k and 2 100 outputs.
The interval of the mixing is depending on the traffic. Only if enough people participate, the mixing will be anonymous.
The passwords are send per AM and are encrypted per the private key of the original account. (i guess that is possible)

What do you think?

This is exactly what i had thought, it's simple and it should work?
But my thought was instead of having a timer for returning funds, i was thinking of reaching certain pooling amount before returning which sometimes will cause a delay when not enough people is using it, but if your desperate for anonymity i think you will have the patient too.

My idea was to limit Capacity of Mixer Pool to 1,000 or 10,000 addresses depending on level of anonymity, all Mixer Amounts only accepts exact 1000nxt+1nxt fee, therefor in the Pool there will be 1,000 addresses of 1,000nxt and a random address will be chosen only after the pool reaches past it's capacity (1,000), and returns your 1,000nxt -1 nxt fee.

Works something like this;
OriginalAddressIn(A)-->MixerAddresses From Pool(A-Z)--->NewAddressOut(A-Z)
Would this NOT work???

regarding the mixing.

BCNext once said:

Nxt is being developed with payment privacy in mind.  I have not revealed details yet, but I can say that there is a special account in Nxt (recipient #0), later it will be used for advanced features (mixing, escrow, etc.)

- may be now is time for him to reveal details (to developers).

Maybe The ABOVE pooling mixer is what BCNext had in mind? Instead of all features clotting in one pool, create one pool for each function.

[bithic]

How will the ZeroCoin project benefit from being implemented on top of Nxt? Let's build a compelling case for them to join forces.

This is a good question. We should always be asking what we can offer the other party to help them get what they want.

I have heard that the ZeroCoin people were a little miffed that after they found a way to bring anonymity to Bitcoin, they realized that their solution would never see the light of day. The Bitcoin Devs are just too conservative with a $10 B market cap at stake...they can't afford any more screwups, so they are extra cautious.

So maybe we can tell ZeroCoin that we are happy to help them implement their solution into our blockchain, and they can also proceed with their Bitcoin fork that implements ZeroCoin.

This would show the practical versatility of their solution and give them academic bragging rights. At that point, Zerocoin would have been implemented in both a 100% PoW Bitcoin fork, and also implemented in the 100% PoS Nxt invention.

"Our truly anonymous ZeroCoin protocol has not only launched its own currency, it's also been successfully implemented into Nxt, the first 2nd generation cryptocurrency."

This would be huge news in the cryptocoin scene and would bring a lot of prestige to both Nxt and ZeroCoin.

We should also offer them a respectable bounty and let them choose to take it in Nxt or BTC or some combination of the two. If they want BTC, then we can hold a sale on the forums like they did to raise money for the cryptographic audit. I think it would be a mistake to try to shove NXT down their throats if they prefer bitcoins instead.

Totally agree with you, I've reached out to Matthew Green stating such.  I hope he gets back to me.

Beyond recognition/publicity, what are the application advantages?

Speed? TPS? Scalability? Energy efficiency? ... ? Any cool 2nd gen features they can leverage?

What do the devs think? Let's hammer out some details. Wish I knew enough to do this myself.

[pinarello]

off topic:

Interesting development at eMunie what I told for months now, and where the whole emunie community accused me and attacked me for is becoming true.

Emunie is now emunie ltd. (yes an compagny) and applied with UK law. A lot of the early community members have left emunie for that reason. So one of the consequences is

they can not run any exchange in the software, etc…

Pin

[bithic]

off topic:

Interesting development at eMunie what I told for months now, and where the whole emunie community accused me and attacked me for is becoming true.

Emunie is now emunie ltd. (yes an compagny) and applied with UK law. A lot of the early community members have left emunie for that reason. So one of the consequences is

they can not run any exchange in the software, etc…

Pin

Politely invite the ones who left to get involved with Nxt. 

[pinarello]

off topic:

Interesting development at eMunie what I told for months now, and where the whole emunie community accused me and attacked me for is becoming true.

Emunie is now emunie ltd. (yes an compagny) and applied with UK law. A lot of the early community members have left emunie for that reason. So one of the consequences is

they can not run any exchange in the software, etc…

Pin

Politely invite the ones who left to get involved with Nxt. 

would like to I know them from day 1, good guys.

unfortunatly Visin deleted my account

[lucky88888]

do you all like it? not even started ... plenty more to come I hope i don't kill the coin

I like it. No kidding. If that's really u, then u solve the main problem of Nxt - distribution.

Edit: I want to see 0.05...

that can be aranged no problem, do i get bountie for it?

ill bring it to kingdom come just cos i can

Big fat liar, i don't see how you guys all believed him. Let him prove it by taking a screenshot of his pending orders. Otherwise he could be the one that's buying up the cheap nxt for all i know.

At a time like this, there are several factors that could make nxt jump in price;

AEsystem is on testing near to completion
New more sexy client(s) coming
Acceptance of many exchanges, will lead to acceptance on bigger exchange.
Marketing going live (eg. nxt minute...)

and also some factors for competitions;
Emunie open beta1 (not really worried for now (everything is on testnet you don't keep any value) until they launch OB2 which is when you actually keep real Emus)

Ethereum supported by big funding whales? I saw their eth video, and it does not look anything like being funded by wealthy people, it looked like a shot in the garage.

[Zahlen]

To the kind, wonderful soul who owns 6483973064837388393:

THANK YOU!!!

hes going to have a heart attack when he sees that

Lol no. But I sat at my comp for like ~10 mins smiling like an idiot. Then I went out into the living room and jumped up and down like an idiot. That was ~4am in the morning. Then I couldn't sleep until ~1pm.

CfB, joefox, Anon136 (I think), thank you all very much for the donations. I'll be continuing to work on the wiki.

Give me more sleepless nights like this

And now that I have some real nxt to work with, I can try something I've had in mind for a week now...


EDIT: If NXT does reach 0.05 or lower, could someone help me buy some? I'm not registered on any exchange right now. I'd like to get up to 0.2 BTC worth (depending on price), can pay 5% more than what you paid for. I realize you could probably flip it back in a day or so and make a lot more, but you'd be helping a poor shibe who's actually doing something for Nxt if you sell it to me instead.

EDIT 2: Moon Maldives, here I come!

[mczarnek]

Why does EMunie becoming Emunie ltd  mean they can't run an exchanges within their software?

And what is AEsystem, seen a couple references to it but don't have a clue what it is?

[TwinWinNerD]

Why does EMunie becoming Emunie ltd  mean they can't run an exchanges within their software?

And what is AEsystem, seen a couple references to it but don't have a clue what it is?

AE = asset exchange = exchange

Because theyy have to comply with UK law. Their law has strict rules on assets, also you can't legally sell drugs and weapons in the UK, which noone can restrict you doing on a decentralized asset exchange...

[coolmist]

In tears laughing my ass off at emule, I have a 300k sell order racked at .00001, buying a new nissan 370z  . Keep on selling, the lucky guy that bought your 1 million will buy an island one day because of your stupidity.

ok im lost here...  not that Im all aware on trading in the first place though..  but if you have a sell order for 300K NXT set for .00001 isnt that bad for you for the price to fall?

Well, in the short term yes. However I think it will pass .00001 very shortly, despite Emu's "dumping."

[Zahlen]

I look forward to rich get richer because i think it may be a legit criticism. I would love for you [Salsacz] to make a strong argument to the contrary. here is my line of thinking.

If you think through the forging process logically suppose you have 2 actors forging, one with 2million nxt and one with 1million nxt. The net balance of payments will tend to flow from the account with 2million nxt into the account with 1 million nxt only if the account with 2million nxt engages in greater than twice as many transactions as the account with 1 million nxt. This indicates that its not necessarily about how much nxt you have, how many transactions you make plays a big part. ...

That assumes transaction fees remain at 1 nxt. If it were a non-negligible % of amount sent instead, assuming the 2 mil guy spends ~twice as much as the 1 mil guy, the gap will gradually close.

I'm seeing a lot of arguments about voting from different people assume this fixed tx fee too. Keep in mind that this likely won't remain the case.

[salsacz]

but how can my transactions help me with forging?

[BitcoinForumator]

Are you talking about price going to 0.00001 or 0.0001?

0.00001 seems mission impossible to me.

[TwinWinNerD]

In tears laughing my ass off at emule, I have a 300k sell order racked at .00001, buying a new nissan 370z  . Keep on selling, the lucky guy that bought your 1 million will buy an island one day because of your stupidity.

ok im lost here...  not that Im all aware on trading in the first place though..  but if you have a sell order for 300K NXT set for .00001 isnt that bad for you for the price to fall?

Well, in the short term yes. However I think it will pass .00001 very shortly, despite Emu's "dumping."

now we get it, you confuse 0.0001 with 0.00001. Dyslexia? hehe

[jl777]

We just need the 288 byte zeroknowledge proof mechanism

Yep. Searching various related articles too.

How will the ZeroCoin project benefit from being implemented on top of Nxt? Let's build a compelling case for them to join forces.

Biggest benefit i see for them is that they can skip the long difficult process of getting a secure blockchain with hundreds of servers
Also when TF is doing many TPS, so will zerocash

[TwinWinNerD]

Logic question:

What would happen if the Genesis Account started forging?

[tk808]

Logic question:

What would happen if the Genesis Account started forging?

Genesis is hungry for nxt

[Zahlen]

It's a good trick if applied in a right place. In Nxt we don't need it if a secret phrase entropy is high enough (~256 bits).

Yeah, but that's the problem! People constantly pick low-entropy passphrases, because they are used to regular passwords.

And then their account gets hacked with something that looks like offline bruteforcing.

So what if instead of doing

MessageDigest.getInstance("SHA-256").digest(secretPhrase.getBytes("UTF-8"))

we add something like PBKDF2 to improve security?

If we did something like this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4821453#msg4821453 then we could easily add Bitcoin-like wallet functionality.  Let the computer use a good random number generator to generate the private key.  Local machine could have its own "weak" password for the local wallet, and the blockchain address would not be able to be brute-forced.

I like nexern's proposal, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4774527#msg4774527
with the modifications I suggested: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4776220#msg4776220

I would do:

SUFFIX = Hash^n(PASSWORD) XOR SEED , where

SEED is a high-entropy random bitstring of equal length to SUFFIX
Hash() is a commonly implemented strong hash function that returns a bitstring of length equal to SUFFIX
Hash^n() is n iterations of Hash(), and
n is chosen as large as possible such that Hash^n() takes say <0.5 secs to run. This is done when SUFFIX is first generated.

Then n and SEED are stored (unencrypted) to file. SUFFIX is generated from file whenever user logs in with PASSWORD.

Even if the file is compromised, rainbow attacks on weaker passwords fail because different users will have different values of n; an attacker cannot feasibly prepare for all possible n.

(Extremely weak passwords will still get broken by brute force. The n iterations delay brute-forcing for weak, but not too weak pws)

Note: I'm not a crypto pro, I'm coming from just general math. Please review this idea first if you want to use it.

[TwinWinNerD]

I am no programmer, but i have a proposal to solve the mixing problem.

How about a pooled approach that is not traceable?

We have at specific times per day (or maybe once a day if traffic is low) a mixing event where everyone can send their coins to an automated mixing address that collects all coins. Once the specific time comes, the logic of the address creates packs of 10000 NXTs and sends them to specific addresses. For example, if you send 100.000 NXT to that address, your coins will be split into 10k pieces on 10 addresses. Those addresses are generated by the mixing algo and the private code is sent to original sender via encrypted address that is only readable if the private key of the original address is known.

Rules:
You can send whatever amount between 1000 and higher
The splitting follows those rules, Balance/10000 --> remainder/1000 --> remainder /100 --> rest is donation(? or maybe remainder/10?)
E.g. If you send 17.200 then you get 1 10k, 7 1k and 2 100 outputs.
The interval of the mixing is depending on the traffic. Only if enough people participate, the mixing will be anonymous.
The passwords are send per AM and are encrypted per the private key of the original account. (i guess that is possible)

What do you think?

This is exactly what i had thought, it's simple and it should work?
But my thought was instead of having a timer for returning funds, i was thinking of reaching certain pooling amount before returning which sometimes will cause a delay when not enough people is using it, but if your desperate for anonymity i think you will have the patient too.

My idea was to limit Capacity of Mixer Pool to 1,000 or 10,000 addresses depending on level of anonymity, all Mixer Amounts only accepts exact 1000nxt+1nxt fee, therefor in the Pool there will be 1,000 addresses of 1,000nxt and a random address will be chosen only after the pool reaches past it's capacity (1,000), and returns your 1,000nxt -1 nxt fee.

Works something like this;
OriginalAddressIn(A)-->MixerAddresses From Pool(A-Z)--->NewAddressOut(A-Z)
Would this NOT work???

Well atleast this approach can be implemented off-chain. Do you guys think there is enough intrest in this to give it a shot?

[MakeBelieve]

Are you talking about price going to 0.00001 or 0.0001?

0.00001 seems mission impossible to me.

Impossible? In what time frame I see that easily a target for NXT.