NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[CIYAM]

1) a single account has 91% of all NXT in its balance
2) a single account balance + all the effectiveBalances leased to that single account where the sum is 91% of all NXT

The suggestion I was making (and it is only a suggestion) would be that both the single account and one owning "leased addresses" are limited to a max. amount of forging power (say 1% for convenience).

So any additional forging power by the way of extra NXT or extra leased accounts would be "useless" and therefore most likely to be allocated elsewhere (*manually* with my suggestion rather than somehow *automatically* via the *penalty* concept).

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[CIYAM]

If so, I might have a solution, just a matter of cost. Is is fair to assume that we can estimate a block generation time being limited by 200 times the worst ping times of nodes?

That would require some "study" of *actual* network latency (versus a few ad hoc examples) to determine for sure - but I think you can see we are going to struggle to get anything close to *instant* confirmations "in the real world".

[NxtMinnow]

Good morning from the West Coast NXT community,

First, great work on the tri-fold marketing brochure with special thanks to rickyjames, bitcoinpaul, w4llace, LiQio, EvilDave and especially mvag to create this great looking marketing material.

With regards to Auroracoin, the fact remains it is STILL a Proof of Work Clone and still suffers from the same geometrically increasing energy rate required to secure the network. The NXT Asset Exchange development has critical momentum; it is imperative this momentum is maintained.

The NXT cryptocurrency ecosystem is LIGHT YEARS ahead of ethereum.  I read through the ethereum forum last night and reviewed all of their problems attempting to implement their first basic clients, problems and delays and bad publicity at attempting to issue a $30 million "ether" IPO, and potentially running afoul of US SEC securities laws related to IPO issuance.

When I explain cryptocurrencies to my friends, one of the first questions is: will cryptocurrencies replace dollars, euros, etc?  My answer to them is always a resounding NO; all assets including cryptocurrencies, fiat, precious metals, land, etc will all continue to exist and be traded in parallel with the new cryptocurrencies through the NXT Asset Exchange.

HOWEVER, NXT is not just a cryptocurrency asset; but rather a powerful tool to enable transactions between all classes of assets and all groups of people.

So many people globally are locked out of the ability to conduct basic economic transactions, let alone complex transactions due to the expense resulting from the greed of the global banking cartel. The NXT ecosystem has the ability to free these underbanked and underserved people to finally join the world economic system free from the constraints of fractional reserve banking, capital controls, central banker greed, and computing arms races.

NXT is reaching critical mass.  It is true we need to organize, coordinate, keep calm and code on.  It is my vision that with the full implementation of the NXT Asset Exchange System, eventually all other energy unsustainable cryptocurrencies (All BTC and LTC clones) will be built on top of the NXT ecosystem as Proof of Work/Proof of Stake Coins.  The Proof of Stake NXT ecosystem provides the leanest, cheapest method to conduct secure cryptographic transactions and DATA GOES WHERE IT IS CHEAPEST!

[bitcoinpaul]

If Joe has no friends, it is not possible

1) If Joe wanted to steal a coke he could simple walk out of the store without paying.

Don't get confused. The soda-can situation is only an example for the underlying problem.

[bitcoinpaul]

HOWEVER, NXT is not just a cryptocurrency asset; but rather a powerful tool to enable transactions between all classes of assets and all groups of people.

So many people globally are locked out of the ability to conduct basic economic transactions, let alone complex transactions due to the expense resulting from the greed of the global banking cartel. The NXT ecosystem has the ability to free these underbanked and underserved people to finally join the world economic system free from the constraints of fractional reserve banking, capital controls, central banker greed, and computing arms races.

+100

[Uniqueorn]

Good morning from the West Coast NXT community,

First, great work on the tri-fold marketing brochure with special thanks to rickyjames, bitcoinpaul, w4llace, LiQio, EvilDave and especially mvag to create this great looking marketing material.

With regards to Auroracoin, the fact remains it is STILL a Proof of Work Clone and still suffers from the same geometrically increasing energy rate required to secure the network. The NXT Asset Exchange development has critical momentum; it is imperative this momentum is maintained.

The NXT cryptocurrency ecosystem is LIGHT YEARS ahead of ethereum.  I read through the ethereum forum last night and reviewed all of their problems attempting to implement their first basic clients, problems and delays and bad publicity at attempting to issue a $30 million "ether" IPO, and potentially running afoul of US SEC securities laws related to IPO issuance.

When I explain cryptocurrencies to my friends, one of the first questions is: will cryptocurrencies replace dollars, euros, etc?  My answer to them is always a resounding NO; all assets including cryptocurrencies, fiat, precious metals, land, etc will all continue to exist and be traded in parallel with the new cryptocurrencies through the NXT Asset Exchange.

HOWEVER, NXT is not just a cryptocurrency asset; but rather a powerful tool to enable transactions between all classes of assets and all groups of people.

So many people globally are locked out of the ability to conduct basic economic transactions, let alone complex transactions due to the expense resulting from the greed of the global banking cartel. The NXT ecosystem has the ability to free these underbanked and underserved people to finally join the world economic system free from the constraints of fractional reserve banking, capital controls, central banker greed, and computing arms races.

NXT is reaching critical mass.  It is true we need to organize, coordinate, keep calm and code on.  It is my vision that with the full implementation of the NXT Asset Exchange System, eventually all other energy unsustainable cryptocurrencies (All BTC and LTC clones) will be built on top of the NXT ecosystem as Proof of Work/Proof of Stake Coins.  The Proof of Stake NXT ecosystem provides the leanest, cheapest method to conduct secure cryptographic transactions and DATA GOES WHERE IT IS CHEAPEST!

Exactly!
I have even more "sensitive" info about Ethereum and I can confirm they are stumbling, but we must not underestimate them. They got powerful investors behind them.
Their biggest problems is legal issues though

[opticalcarrier]

1) a single account has 91% of all NXT in its balance
2) a single account balance + all the effectiveBalances leased to that single account where the sum is 91% of all NXT

The suggestion I was making (and it is only a suggestion) would be that both the single account and one owning "leased addresses" are limited to a max. amount of forging power (say 1% for convenience).

So any additional forging power by the way of extra NXT or extra leased accounts would be "useless" and therefore most likely to be allocated elsewhere (*manually* with my suggestion rather than somehow *automatically* via the *penalty* concept).

I made an identical suggestion a few days ago, but no one seemed to see it.  I forgot what values I suggested, I think it was 5M or 10M or something like that.  Assuming no penalty exists as our current situation, is there any difference between the 2 scenarios I presented?  They are the same, right?  no?

IMO this forging thing is the most important thing we have to consider for the future.  How to encourage forging, and prevent centralization in a trustless manner.  BTC cannot solve this - pools must choose to do the right thing.  But if we limit the amount of forging power then IMO we run the risk of making it even easier to mount 90% attack, if very little NXT is actively forging.

Hard stuff..  Do we make forging profitable as a means to protect the network?  Or can we depend on the circumstances that BCNexts' plan targets?

Hard stuff

[Come-from-Beyond]

Not sure why 60 seconds should be the fastest practical time. Simple transactions as buying a can of soda do not require 1440 blocks. As long as the "supermarket" caches its precious not-confirmed transactions until they are, nobody's in trouble.

@CfB
Could you elaborate?

Imagine that we have 10 min between blocks. We could move to 5 min and get 2x faster transactions without losing reliability (this doesn't work in Bitcoin). But we have 1 min between blocks and this is already very close to the limit where we have a high rate of forks. We can move to 10 sec and get 6x faster transactions but reliability will be 6x lower (network needs 1 minute to converge). If at some point in the future we get a "better" Internet, then we can move to 10 sec without losing reliability (doesn't work for PoW coins as I said).

Right now we could try to find the optimal time between blocks, but unfortunatelly this will be an optimum only for the current topology. 5 minutes later - and we will get another topology with another optimal interval.

[CIYAM]

If Joe has no friends, it is not possible

1) If Joe wanted to steal a coke he could simple walk out of the store without paying.

Don't get confused. The soda-can situation is only an example for the underlying problem.

It is though a very *correct* way of looking at it - as a retailer you always have to "take a risk" about your shop security vs. convenience and "atmosphere" (no-one would be very comfortable with a shop that demanded to "strip search you" before leaving).

Remember even *cash* can be fake (something I know well about here as I have unfortunately ended up receiving a couple of fake notes over the years despite the fact I do normally check them).

[CIYAM]

[Nxt] Instant transactions with guaranteed confirmation
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0

A merchant (or a vending machine) can accept payments from special accounts without waiting for confirmations.

Note the "special" here - I am guessing this is probably something like the "green addresses" of Mt. Gox.

Basically you are once again trading "decentralisation" for "convenience" (I don't doubt the appeal though).

[BrianNowhere]

Revealed yet?

No, but 2nd part of the plan contains a hint. Read about transparency.

Can we get rid of the hints, please?
If it is not possible, then BCNext should take his coins, convert it to FIAT and pay for a project manager to manage Nxt till there are no more "unknown issues" and the community can take over.

+1440

Enough with the wax on, wax off bullshit.

[starik69]

Very strange. On 0.8.xe versions after several hours my node always forks. That was not the case on 0.7.x. I usually forged >1 block a day but on 0.8 i got nothing 
Downgrading.

Well, 0.7.6 working without any trouble >24 hours. Forging is ok.
Can not understand what was wrong with 0.8.x

[bitcoinpaul]

Just a reminder: BCNext don't want NXT to be a currency. Coins on top of Nxt should be. Does this change anything?

[CIYAM]

"Special" as in tagged with Account Control.  CfB has stated that AC will be functional by April, and I have assumed this is part of it.

I have not heard anything about this but basically I think such "special" addresses would have to be under the control of a 3rd party (that the vendor will have to decide to "trust" not to attempt anything nefarious).

[jl777]

If so, I might have a solution, just a matter of cost. Is is fair to assume that we can estimate a block generation time being limited by 200 times the worst ping times of nodes?

That would require some "study" of *actual* network latency (versus a few ad hoc examples) to determine for sure - but I think you can see we are going to struggle to get anything close to *instant* confirmations "in the real world".

I never expected it to be easy or inexpensive. Doing the "impossible" is usually difficult or expensive or both.

You said yourself that unless I was talking about an in-country solution I am just fantasizing. So, I went with that assumption, that networks incountry are fast pretty much worldwide. That makes sense.

This directly leads to a connected hub and spoke topology. Each country has its own hub and spoke topology and we connect all the country's hubs with a fast backbone.

If we can reduce the problem to creating a hub to hub fast backbone, I am sure out networking experts here can chime in with solutions, especially if we have some budget for it. I think it is more productive to identify the actual bottlenecks we are faced with, rather than glossing it over as fantasy due to network latency. Going from that dismissal to "we need a way to connect hubs across all the countries" seems like we have reduced the problem from the "impossible" category to "very difficult and probably expensive". Of course I was hoping we would get TF in April that will magically do the impossible without expensive and complicated solution.

In any case, we are actively talking about client side signing and submitting to public servers, so we are already headed to this sort of topology.

James

[wesleyh]

Not sure why 60 seconds should be the fastest practical time. Simple transactions as buying a can of soda do not require 1440 blocks. As long as the "supermarket" caches its precious not-confirmed transactions until they are, nobody's in trouble.

@CfB
Could you elaborate?

Imagine that we have 10 min between blocks. We could move to 5 min and get 2x faster transactions without losing reliability (this doesn't work in Bitcoin). But we have 1 min between blocks and this is already very close to the limit where we have a high rate of forks. We can move to 10 sec and get 6x faster transactions but reliability will be 6x lower (network needs 1 minute to converge). If at some point in the future we get a "better" Internet, then we can move to 10 sec without losing reliability (doesn't work for PoW coins as I said).

Right now we could try to find the optimal time between blocks, but unfortunatelly this will be an optimum only for the current topology. 5 minutes later - and we will get another topology with another optimal interval.

So 1000 tps is not possible? Even if 1000 tps is possible, they wouldn't be confirmed, you would need to wait at least 1 minute to get the first confirmation?

[bitcoinpaul]

I think CfB mentioned regional block chains or something similar some day. Can't recall it correctly now.

[landomata]

If Joe has no friends, it is not possible

1) If Joe wanted to steal a coke he could simple walk out of the store without paying.

Don't get confused. The soda-can situation is only an example for the underlying problem.

My point is human nature will not change....two facts...1) Humans are not perfect 2) "Evil" will always exist.

So even though we might think that whatever system we come up with is perfect against human nature we are surely deluding ourselves.

[CIYAM]

This directly leads to a connected hub and spoke topology. Each country has its own hub and spoke topology and we connect all the country's hubs with a fast backbone.

Sure - I know where you are headed with the idea - but *still* we can end up with "forks in different countries" as I don't believe you can be sure to achieve what I have put in bold.

[ChuckOne]

Not sure why 60 seconds should be the fastest practical time. Simple transactions as buying a can of soda do not require 1440 blocks. As long as the "supermarket" caches its precious not-confirmed transactions until they are, nobody's in trouble.

@CfB
Could you elaborate?

Imagine that we have 10 min between blocks. We could move to 5 min and get 2x faster transactions without losing reliability (this doesn't work in Bitcoin). But we have 1 min between blocks and this is already very close to the limit where we have a high rate of forks. We can move to 10 sec and get 6x faster transactions but reliability will be 6x lower (network needs 1 minute to converge). If at some point in the future we get a "better" Internet, then we can move to 10 sec without losing reliability (doesn't work for PoW coins as I said).

Right now we could try to find the optimal time between blocks, but unfortunatelly this will be an optimum only for the current topology. 5 minutes later - and we will get another topology with another optimal interval.

Alright.

So, as I understand it the 1000 TPS is just like the bandwidth of my Ethernet cable. And the 60 seconds for a block addresses the network latency.