Economic Devastation

[sidhujag]

Gold, Oil, Land, Estate,Stocks,Bonds, Precious Metals, Precious Stones, Old Art, Infrastructure, Mining and Political influence.

The elite is a class, it doesnt matter who personally is in there, they are all doing the same thing.

Your point is not proven.

You are so full of it kiddo, you can tell you have limited knowledge yet try to preach like you are an expert. My point is proven with your response again. Good day

The first law of holes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes

"The first law of holes, or the law of holes, is an adage which states that if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging"

Just yesterday I had to apply this very law to myself. Right after the wired and gizmodo articles came out I was convinced for a moment. Then all the counter evidence started to show up the pgp inconstancies and a potential financial motive for deliberate and long term misdirection. The result was this wonderful post.

WE HAVE FOUND SATOSHI AND HE IS STILL WORKING WITH BITCOIN.

That is my take on this as well.

Edit: On further review and in light of the new evidence that the community has unearthed I retract the above statement =)

Not my finest hour but hey we are all human. Sometimes the best course of action is to look around, smile, and realize we have dug ourselves into a bit of a hole =)

I think it was obvious, to me atleast. I personally believe I know who he is/was and you won't be hearing from him again.

[1715107974]

1715107974

[1715107974]

1715107974

[CoinCube]

An interesting article from the New York Times that shows how modern banking treats its clients as sheep whose purpose is to be fleeced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/11/business/he-blew-the-whistle-at-jpmorgan-chase-then-came-the-blowback.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Mr. Burris, 44, worked as a broker at JPMorgan’s Sun City West, Ariz., branch office beginning in 2010, where he was a top producing broker and earned glowing performance reviews, at least in his first few years. Most of his clients were retirees who were unsophisticated about the financial markets.

So Mr. Burris avoided what he considered unsuitable, expensive and underperforming investment products, including some offered by JPMorgan, which drew criticism from his bosses. Troubled that he was being pressured to push JPMorgan’s products rather than act in his clients’ best interests, he went so far as to secretly record his colleagues. He complained repeatedly to his supervisors.

None of this exactly endeared Mr. Burris to his employer or co-workers. In late 2012, Mr. Burris was suspended and then fired. The firm gave him no explanation or chance to defend himself.

Who who in their right mind would trust these people?   
 

[sidhujag]

An interesting article from the New York Times that shows how modern banking treats its clients as sheep whose purpose is to be fleeced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/11/business/he-blew-the-whistle-at-jpmorgan-chase-then-came-the-blowback.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Mr. Burris, 44, worked as a broker at JPMorgan’s Sun City West, Ariz., branch office beginning in 2010, where he was a top producing broker and earned glowing performance reviews, at least in his first few years. Most of his clients were retirees who were unsophisticated about the financial markets.

So Mr. Burris avoided what he considered unsuitable, expensive and underperforming investment products, including some offered by JPMorgan, which drew criticism from his bosses. Troubled that he was being pressured to push JPMorgan’s products rather than act in his clients’ best interests, he went so far as to secretly record his colleagues. He complained repeatedly to his supervisors.

None of this exactly endeared Mr. Burris to his employer or co-workers. In late 2012, Mr. Burris was suspended and then fired. The firm gave him no explanation or chance to defend himself.

Who who in their right mind would trust these people?   
 

Thats normal for wallstreet

[tabnloz]

They dont care for privacy eh? Who are the elite you refer to btw?

The bankers and the richest persons on the planet. They already do what they do out in the open and have press conferences about their investments, for them its no point to hide it.

And where are the elite investing? Any links to where they put their money? I think you got this backwards.
The fact that you dont even know who the elite are proves my point.

Gold, Oil, Land, Estate,Stocks,Bonds, Precious Metals, Precious Stones, Old Art, Infrastructure, Mining and Political influence.

The elite is a class, it doesnt matter who personally is in there, they are all doing the same thing.


Your point is not proven.

You are so full of it kiddo, you can tell you have limited knowledge yet try to preach like you are an expert. My point is proven with your response again. Good day

The elite we all talk of made fortunes by "changing" industries, at the right time; oil, rail, shipping, mining, banking, and many others. They keep their wealth and influence in a variety of regular and irregular ways, the shittiest includes lobbying. The politicians tell the people what they want to hear (and often don't deliver) but they enact what the elite want without making noise about it. And anytime the wealth of the elite is threatened we hear about 'bailouts', which is the masses paying off the mistakes of the elite.

[suda123]

They dont care for privacy eh? Who are the elite you refer to btw?

The bankers and the richest persons on the planet. They already do what they do out in the open and have press conferences about their investments, for them its no point to hide it.

And where are the elite investing? Any links to where they put their money? I think you got this backwards.
The fact that you dont even know who the elite are proves my point.

Gold, Oil, Land, Estate,Stocks,Bonds, Precious Metals, Precious Stones, Old Art, Infrastructure, Mining and Political influence.

The elite is a class, it doesnt matter who personally is in there, they are all doing the same thing.


Your point is not proven.

You are so full of it kiddo, you can tell you have limited knowledge yet try to preach like you are an expert. My point is proven with your response again. Good day

The elite we all talk of made fortunes by "changing" industries, at the right time; oil, rail, shipping, mining, banking, and many others. They keep their wealth and influence in a variety of regular and irregular ways, the shittiest includes lobbying. The politicians tell the people what they want to hear (and often don't deliver) but they enact what the elite want without making noise about it. And anytime the wealth of the elite is threatened we hear about 'bailouts', which is the masses paying off the mistakes of the elite.

Im sure they have think tanks that plan this stuff ahead of time. Years ahead of time, the best representation is the stuff they put in movies, hidden messages in movies*

[sidhujag]

They dont care for privacy eh? Who are the elite you refer to btw?

The bankers and the richest persons on the planet. They already do what they do out in the open and have press conferences about their investments, for them its no point to hide it.

And where are the elite investing? Any links to where they put their money? I think you got this backwards.
The fact that you dont even know who the elite are proves my point.

Gold, Oil, Land, Estate,Stocks,Bonds, Precious Metals, Precious Stones, Old Art, Infrastructure, Mining and Political influence.

The elite is a class, it doesnt matter who personally is in there, they are all doing the same thing.


Your point is not proven.

You are so full of it kiddo, you can tell you have limited knowledge yet try to preach like you are an expert. My point is proven with your response again. Good day

The elite we all talk of made fortunes by "changing" industries, at the right time; oil, rail, shipping, mining, banking, and many others. They keep their wealth and influence in a variety of regular and irregular ways, the shittiest includes lobbying. The politicians tell the people what they want to hear (and often don't deliver) but they enact what the elite want without making noise about it. And anytime the wealth of the elite is threatened we hear about 'bailouts', which is the masses paying off the mistakes of the elite.

I know what the idea of elites is. Do you know exactly where they are investing? They have vested interest in keeping it private until they want others to buy in.. That is the point we are trying to make here,

[dloghwak]

An interesting article from the New York Times that shows how modern banking treats its clients as sheep whose purpose is to be fleeced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/11/business/he-blew-the-whistle-at-jpmorgan-chase-then-came-the-blowback.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Mr. Burris, 44, worked as a broker at JPMorgan’s Sun City West, Ariz., branch office beginning in 2010, where he was a top producing broker and earned glowing performance reviews, at least in his first few years. Most of his clients were retirees who were unsophisticated about the financial markets.

So Mr. Burris avoided what he considered unsuitable, expensive and underperforming investment products, including some offered by JPMorgan, which drew criticism from his bosses. Troubled that he was being pressured to push JPMorgan’s products rather than act in his clients’ best interests, he went so far as to secretly record his colleagues. He complained repeatedly to his supervisors.

None of this exactly endeared Mr. Burris to his employer or co-workers. In late 2012, Mr. Burris was suspended and then fired. The firm gave him no explanation or chance to defend himself.

Who who in their right mind would trust these people?   
 

Thats normal for wallstreet

That's normal for the world and capitalism. Individuals/Companys act in their own best interest, that's quite old news.

[macsga]

An interesting article from the New York Times that shows how modern banking treats its clients as sheep whose purpose is to be fleeced.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/11/business/he-blew-the-whistle-at-jpmorgan-chase-then-came-the-blowback.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Thats normal for wallstreet

That's normal for the world and capitalism. Individuals/Companys act in their own best interest, that's quite old news.

Isnt it sad that what should be called proper behaviour is now being punished?

[TPTB_need_war]

CoinCube, macsga, et al,

Calling (inviting) your attention to my new thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1284083.msg13235555#msg13235555

OROBTC and other technophobes, you are invited but doubting you will understand that thread. It is for laymen of cryptography, but more attuned to those who have a modicum of math and/or programming background. Although OROBTC you've said you use statistical software, so perhaps your STEM-like acumen is sufficient to benefit from the thread.

Macsga, I think I finally can conclude what went wrong with my health in terms of the tailspin in July/August (and why fasting although a stopgap measure was not really a good solution):

Health update is I am cruising along great. After 14+ hours of working my legs and head start getting inflammation, but sleep renews me each time. Very consistent now that I am taking the Turmeric root extract (curcuma longa) in coconut milk with black pepper. Also all my other anti-oxidant supplements. I will make a new updated list of the supplements I've been taking daily. Overall I am very cautiously hopeful and thankful for my progress. I was at the basketball court again a couple of days ago. I haven't exercised the past 3 days. Been really working nonstop other than sleeping. My recent production should be evidence enough that my health has stabilized considerably. In hindsight what destroyed my health from July through September was when my new gf arrived to live with me May 25, she cooked for me all the Omega 6 meats such as pork, chicken, and beef. At the time I was thinking that carbos were my enemy so I was eating massive amount of meat and no rice. Omega 6 is highly inflammatory and this about killed me. Now eating only tuna (which is Omega 3) which is less inflammatory, raw veggies (no night shades!), rice, and coconut milk/oil (which is non-inflammatory medium chain fatty acides that feed the brain energy directly through the liver via ketones instead of circulating into the glucose mechanism for energy. Coconut is a miracle food. Also I think rangedriver was correct when he pointed out that fasting is really bad in my case because I also read that to get inflammation under control requires stabilizing the glutathione/glutamate/glutamine balance where glutathione is produced in the liver and a deficiency is catastrophic and fasting depletes glutathione. So the 10 day water only fasting might have been good for putting a halt to that omega 6 overload that nearly destroyed me, but it was probably counterproductive from the standpoint of glutathione. I am now taking NAC, ALA, and EGCG to restore my glutathione related anti-oxidant imbalance.

[OROBTC]

...

Go get 'em, TPTB.

While my own sentiments were nicely mirrored there at your thread by YarkoL (funny!), I think that you (or anyone) who is way out there on the frontiers of exploring the limits of cryptography and programming is to be highly commended (though I will commend you from CoinCube's thread here and not clutter up your new one).


EDIT: I'm glad to have caught the beginning of one of your threads, and so do not have to go back into the past and try to catch up on something I only dimly understand.

[TPTB_need_war]

Cheers OROBTC. Here is tipping my hat to this thread one more time:

---8<---

Note I don't intend any overt ill will towards governments. Heck I am even making the first version of coin without any anonymity, so that isn't any overt move to prevent their ability to tax and track. It is just that decentralization will increasingly make governments paradigmatically irrelevant, because change moves much faster and more smoothly decentralized without a middle man in the way. Back in the dinosaur age of Industrialization, we needed governments to help us organize, protect, and regulate large fixed capital investments because production economies-of-scale did not allow individual production. The Knowledge Age has totally changed that.

---8<---

Since you have diverged my question into a political discussion I will give my views on this. AFA I'm concerned Mankind will never be free until all commodities are tied to an individuals(ALL) base global monetary unit (GC). GC=t+t*(valuation of profession). A huge portion of government would be removed with this although as you have said it will most certainly come with the loss of many liberties Which blows but is inevitable. At least with global authority much waste from redundancy will be rendered obsolete and a global monetary unit will of course be instituted. What that unit is "Based" on is what will define the future.

Commodities (as you refer to them meaning I assume raw materials, not the economic meaning of fungibility) are the old Industrial Age paradigm. I have explained extensively in the Economics Devastation thread that the Knowledge Age will be valued in speed and granularity of knowledge creation. Thinking in terms of models of usury, fixed capital investment and the cost of atoms, is ... sorry to say for dinosaurs.

I had this debate with the 150+ IQ genius Eric Raymond about his assertion that cost of atoms can never be free. It is in the Dark Enlightment thread.

That is old news for me. I have already decided I am correct on the economic theory and I have moved on to implementation.

[thaaanos]

Just to divert the topic a bit
It seems that the death of consumerism is near and that corporations are adjusting to a permanent deflationary environment.
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-could-grow-revenue-iphone-subscriptions-annual-upgrade-2015-12
Consumer products will be subscription based aka leased not owned. That is good news I think environmentally-wise as that will spell the end of planned obsolescence
I think corporations will lease subscriptions plans based on product iterations. That will effectively mean that consumers will formally reuse products through official channels and when products reach end of life they (hopefully) be return for final recycling and dissasembly.
I know some of you will think that its eerily too close to central planning, but I think it will be a good compromise. And the only way imho to make it work in a deflationary environment.
Why? because subscription based products effectively count as implicit pre-ordering therefore reducing the risks in the production pipe-lining and helps minimize (depreciating) inventory and stock.

[STT]

Leasing is more expensive then ownership, its a form of vendor financing that actually increases overall cost for users afaik.  Im not sure its more green or efficient, the company will always prefer people do this as its more profitable.
Apple can borrow for five years at one% interest, they dont mind you leaning on them as its perfectly fine for a company that size and only a question of credit worthiness I guess.    I always see cars pushed this way, I would say its more of a disposable attitude then owners handling all aspects of the car themselves so I'd expect similar with Apple.  Maybe they can recycle parts better, maybe Im wrong and its a 'better' model (some of which are rare metals)
Consumerism is already based around vendor financing if we consider China holds so much foreign debt which in turn enables USA and other countries to continue to buy their products at lower price then any more local production

[Yakamoto]

Just to divert the topic a bit
It seems that the death of consumerism is near and that corporations are adjusting to a permanent deflationary environment.
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-could-grow-revenue-iphone-subscriptions-annual-upgrade-2015-12
Consumer products will be subscription based aka leased not owned. That is good news I think environmentally-wise as that will spell the end of planned obsolescence
I think corporations will lease subscriptions plans based on product iterations. That will effectively mean that consumers will formally reuse products through official channels and when products reach end of life they (hopefully) be return for final recycling and dissasembly.
I know some of you will think that its eerily too close to central planning, but I think it will be a good compromise. And the only way imho to make it work in a deflationary environment.
Why? because subscription based products effectively count as implicit pre-ordering therefore reducing the risks in the production pipe-lining and helps minimize (depreciating) inventory and stock.

To be honest, in a way, it is beneficial for there t be a subscription/sharing economy instead of a consumerist economy. Things like Uber just solidify the idea that this is happening.

We do not need to purchase every single thing under the sun, nor do we need to produce so any products that will likely never be used, or used for a small period of time.

This is also very beneficial as we now have low-wage workers in many parts of the world, and, as seen in a different article I saw somewhere, $45,000 a year in annual income is becoming poor. The ability for these low-earners, as stupid as it may seem that they earn a low amount, to be able to rent out devices or other materials for a period of time relieves some stress as they will be able to return the items as soon as their subscription is over.

This is a fairly ingenuous idea, but it can bring its own issues. I wouldn't say I'm a socialist, but I think this offers a good compromise between capitalism and socialism, enough to appease both ends of the political spectrum.

[thaaanos]

Leasing is more expensive then ownership, its a form of vendor financing that actually increases overall cost for users afaik.  Im not sure its more green or efficient, the company will always prefer people do this as its more profitable.

This is a fairly ingenuous idea, but it can bring its own issues. I wouldn't say I'm a socialist, but I think this offers a good compromise between capitalism and socialism, enough to appease both ends of the political spectrum.

well competition will still be there so hopefully if model changes prices will reach ownership levels if they hope for adoption, but hopefully it will reign in the disposability of products.

Lets say customers with subscription plan A get the bring in their iPhone and get upgraded to the latest iteration, returned iPhones are refurbished and offered to customers with plan B whose phones go to those with plan C. Or you can opt to keep the device and descend subscription plan.
Products could be made to be easily replace user interfaces that are prone to wear or made more durable. And eventually devices could end up on Apples dissasembly line.
A charge for broken devices could keep the customers more mindfull of their devices, also if companies are forced to recycle-reuse a big chunk of their materials. Overall the environment would be happier

Software companies are propably already ready to jump, Adobe already did as well as Microsoft with office.

[RealBitcoin]

Leasing is more expensive then ownership....

This makes me wonder. What do we own nowadays really?


Let's take an average business for example a pizza service:  They took a business loan to start it up, they probably rent the building they operate in, the delivery cars are also leased, the tools and items are also either leased or bought in rates.


It seems to me banks own everything, and everybody else is just leasing/borrowing from them ,including medium & large businesses too ,even governments.

[suda123]

Leasing is more expensive then ownership....

This makes me wonder. What do we own nowadays really?


Let's take an average business for example a pizza service:  They took a business loan to start it up, they probably rent the building they operate in, the delivery cars are also leased, the tools and items are also either leased or bought in rates.


It seems to me banks own everything, and everybody else is just leasing/borrowing from them ,including medium & large businesses too ,even governments.

Now I see, so the interest rate increase and all those loan mongering whatever are just a way to own more shit right? before a collapse?

[sidhujag]

Leasing is more expensive then ownership....

This makes me wonder. What do we own nowadays really?


Let's take an average business for example a pizza service:  They took a business loan to start it up, they probably rent the building they operate in, the delivery cars are also leased, the tools and items are also either leased or bought in rates.


It seems to me banks own everything, and everybody else is just leasing/borrowing from them ,including medium & large businesses too ,even governments.

In a capitalist environmemt, a business would find a need and fill it for a "cut".. Thr startup costs are too high to own entire inventory and tools so as a business they have to decide what the right amount of leverage is required or desired based on the profit margins of their product. Once the business grows you start to take middle men out or leave it based on how agile you want your process to be. Leasing increases flexibility while decreasing some profits but may let you pivot quicker going fwd. the banks are there because they have capability to leverage the heck out of the central bank and provide desired liquidity to businesses.. The banks have the most lucrative form of business models since it is fairly low risk high reward but it is a boys club and thats probably why they enjoy these benefits

[RealBitcoin]

Now I see, so the interest rate increase and all those loan mongering whatever are just a way to own more shit right? before a collapse?

Yes.

They come out the winners no matter what happens. The bankers are always hedged.


If the economy goes on: They give out more loans (out of thin air) and get leveraged interest payments

If the economy collapses: They confiscate the assets from those that cant pay the debt, because they lost their jobs, and now the bank have real assets, which they can give in rent to the same person they stole from just so that he doesnt get in the street.


The same with bitcoin:  If bitcoin never goes mainstream (which I doubt) they will remain the elite

If bitcoin goes mainstream: They will quickly buy up bitcoin with their fictitious paper, and still remain the elite.



They will remain the elite.

[RealBitcoin]

In a capitalist environmemt, a business would find a need and fill it for a "cut".. Thr startup costs are too high to own entire inventory and tools so as a business they have to decide what the right amount of leverage is required or desired based on the profit margins of their product. Once the business grows you start to take middle men out or leave it based on how agile you want your process to be. Leasing increases flexibility while decreasing some profits but may let you pivot quicker going fwd. the banks are there because they have capability to leverage the heck out of the central bank and provide desired liquidity to businesses.. The banks have the most lucrative form of business models since it is fairly low risk high reward but it is a boys club and thats probably why they enjoy these benefits

This is not capitalism, because nobody , but the elite have capital.

This is debtism.  Global bank debt slaverism? Corporate oligopolism?