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Author Topic: 8th Alt coin thread. Or what to do now that asics are all over the place.  (Read 48967 times)
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August 05, 2018, 02:01:32 AM
 #801

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4218

looks like a new fork for monero

this is pretty good news.

the key is can they fork often enough to hold off the asics?
thank god.

I was watching the diff vs. price recently and it made my heart sink....

now i really gotta get off my ass and try to recompile xmr-stak with zero devfee again shortly... I hope to god the compiler behaves this time.

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August 05, 2018, 02:49:18 AM
 #802

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4218

looks like a new fork for monero

this is pretty good news.

the key is can they fork often enough to hold off the asics?

Awesome news. Would also be nice to know when they plan on implementing it. Hopefully not anytime soon so people can continue dumping GPUs at insanely low prices. Believe it or not local miners here are now selling 1080tis at the $350-$400 price range. Best part is some are bought early 2018.

At that price range, that is still a good buy right?
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August 05, 2018, 02:58:44 AM
 #803

Believe it or not local miners here are now selling 1080tis at the $350-$400 price range.


nutty........ regular reference/blower 1080's are fetching the same price right now here in the bay area....

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August 05, 2018, 12:55:34 PM
 #804

A glitch occurred  my thread forked last night.
I locked the new thread fork and moved it here Grin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4820493.msg43491047#msg43491047

that upcoming fork will hurt sales of the acorn 215+  as they have monero V1  or as some say monero7

so  the fpga acorn will have 1 less viable algo when and if it arrives.

I busted chops in that thread so much that I decide to no longer post in it.


this is my last post there

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4391318.msg43339004#msg43339004

I will leave this analogy

gpus = a bicycle

fpga = a motorcycle

yeah pedal bikes are slower  but they works and tossing them out  for motorcycles  and or bikes attached to motorcycles would be laugh at.

to end the widespread gpu mining for profit is stupid  at least 1 developer team sees this thank you monero developers.

If you read the above I am not against fpga's  I am against them destroying gpu mining.

at the moment ::

I mine with asics on :  LTC and BTC
I mine with GPUS on : BTG and ETH
I mine with CPUS on : Monero7  or v1
I mine with FPGAs on : nothing as acorn 215+'s are yet to ship

I sold 2 1080ti's for 900 today after shipping I will get about 850 for them.


I feel you phil.

But;  I also see it this way...


Let people drop off the GPU side; and we will see more instances like our Skien days....   Everyone was heavy on asics..... either asics or ETH for the most part.

I see the exact same happening in the future;  just;  a different piece of hardware and manufacturer now.... as well as different algo.

I still must admit:
Each device has it's place....  (good or bad)


But when you consider the ramifications of the devices when compared to each other;   yes;  asics secure BTC;  but,  they secure BTC...    Each different algo has seemed to bring along its own waves of differences in effects on all other devices and strategies.  Just because a powerful device worked for one scenario;  doesn't mean its a good idea for the current scenarios.


If these companies; designed the devices to only make a modest profit;  we would have a winning company/device to support in my eyes... the problem would be severely lessened.... to a point... a dull point.


I wont ever buy a brand new piece of shitmain gear.   Never.    They are a crooked company and don't deserve it in my mind.   I hope many people do the same.      They got excessively greedy;  look at the profit margins that can be deduced.    It's insanity.

I hope we find a way to change the meta of POW mining.....  level the playing field and try to keep this thing from getting out of control and 100% centralized; which is my ultimate worst fear.

 Powerful devices further the divide between the "decentralized and attainable by the layman";  and "big fish that can afford to dump on the latest and greatest to reap the second best rewards (first best being the manufacturer).   How can we change this?



If these companies; designed the devices to only make a modest profit;  we would have a winning company/device to support in my eyes... the problem would be severely lessened.... to a point... a dull point.

A "modest profit"?  What does that even mean?  Companies are in business to make money.  Investors will not invest in a company that plans to only make "modest profit."  That makes it difficult to get funding for R&D, paying for components, paying salaries, taxes, etc.


Quote
I wont ever buy a brand new piece of shitmain gear.   Never.    They are a crooked company and don't deserve it in my mind.   I hope many people do the same.      They got excessively greedy;  look at the profit margins that can be deduced.    It's insanity.

Prices are set to what the market will bear.  Apple was selling the iPhone X for $1000 and you know they had a significant profit margin on that.  They are now a $1 trillion company.  If you want to stay in business, you have to continue to make money.


Quote
I hope we find a way to change the meta of POW mining.....  level the playing field and try to keep this thing from getting out of control and 100% centralized; which is my ultimate worst fear.

Bitmain is not the only ASIC producer.  There are several competing companies... more than players in the GPU field.  What's the difference between 1 million GPUs versus 1 million ASICs when calculating "centralization?"  Nothing.


Quote
Powerful devices further the divide between the "decentralized and attainable by the layman";  and "big fish that can afford to dump on the latest and greatest to reap the second best rewards (first best being the manufacturer).   How can we change this?

As long as game-theory and rewards is a part of POW, then there will always be people who try to gain an advantage.  POS is out there, but that is more like a dividend from a stock... and boring to us miners.

My thread has been erased 30 plus pages are gone. Someone is angry at me.

I find it interesting and sad  but it really seems I struck a chord  and got some one very pissed off.

My thread has been erased 30 plus pages are gone. Someone is angry at me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3843565.800

this?

My thread has been erased 30 plus pages are gone. Someone is angry at me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3843565.800

this?

seems like a glitch   I will lock this and transfer it




I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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August 05, 2018, 01:12:16 PM
 #805

Fixed the error.

I want to talk to puwaha


"Bitmain is not the only ASIC producer.  There are several competing companies... more than players in the GPU field.  What's the difference between 1 million GPUs versus 1 million ASICs when calculating "centralization?"  Nothing."



I agree there is  more then 1 player in asics.

I could explain why bitmain  is the worst then followed by Innosilicon

But the thread is not about bashing them.



And I buy their gear along with asics ,cpus, gpus from anyone I think works for my mining model.

Where I really disagree with you  is :

What's the difference between 1 million GPUs versus 1 million ASICs when calculating "centralization?"  Nothing.

It is really wrong to think this for so many reasons.

Lets start here:

 hundreds of  millions of people world wide own a pc
they use the pc for many reasons.

Here is a high end gaming pc

https://www.amazon.com/HP-Desktop-Computer-i7-8700K-880-130/dp/B0768M95WY/ref=sr_1_3?

forget that I was getting this with 2 1080ti's  for 2300 in feb of 2018

but  there are about 1 million 1080ti's in gaming machines like this  and when the family sleeps  this mines and makes money

when the family is awake it works as  a pc and a gaming device

to not see that this is better then 1 million asics  is sad dude  so sad.

to think that 1 million of these  have zero difference then 1 million asics is sad so sad so very sad.

That said  it simply means  there is a place for active gpu mining  along with asics and fpga and cpus.

a bicycle  would work well below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3kL6nMap2s


I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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August 05, 2018, 02:16:54 PM
 #806

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4218

looks like a new fork for monero

this is pretty good news.

the key is can they fork often enough to hold off the asics?

I believe Monero forks every 6 months.

BTC: 1GENERALrtBAjEv2Ps5cmEW1FADnXh1bCZ
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August 05, 2018, 02:30:02 PM
 #807

according to my estimates continue to be (as 1,000 dollars) or more
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August 05, 2018, 02:31:58 PM
 #808

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4218

looks like a new fork for monero

this is pretty good news.

the key is can they fork often enough to hold off the asics?

I believe Monero forks every 6 months.

We need four or five forking coins for gpus

The rest can be FPGA and or asics.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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August 05, 2018, 09:11:58 PM
 #809

Fixed the error.

I want to talk to puwaha


"Bitmain is not the only ASIC producer.  There are several competing companies... more than players in the GPU field.  What's the difference between 1 million GPUs versus 1 million ASICs when calculating "centralization?"  Nothing."



I agree there is  more then 1 player in asics.

I could explain why bitmain  is the worst then followed by Innosilicon

But the thread is not about bashing them.

Agreed... Bitmain gets the worst bashing... some of it deserved, but most is not deserved.  It always happens when a company is on top and dominates an industry or sector.  Look at the hate that companies like Apple or Tesla get... despite the love they get from investors.  The individual throws shade when they don't feel they can participate in the amount of money that is being generated by these top companies.  I see the same thing happening here to Bitmain.


Quote
And I buy their gear along with asics ,cpus, gpus from anyone I think works for my mining model.

Where I really disagree with you  is :

What's the difference between 1 million GPUs versus 1 million ASICs when calculating "centralization?"  Nothing.

It is really wrong to think this for so many reasons.

Lets start here:

 hundreds of  millions of people world wide own a pc
they use the pc for many reasons.

Here is a high end gaming pc

https://www.amazon.com/HP-Desktop-Computer-i7-8700K-880-130/dp/B0768M95WY/ref=sr_1_3?

forget that I was getting this with 2 1080ti's  for 2300 in feb of 2018

but  there are about 1 million 1080ti's in gaming machines like this  and when the family sleeps  this mines and makes money

when the family is awake it works as  a pc and a gaming device

Your statement makes a lot of suppositions.  What is your best estimate of this even happening on a large scale?

Mom and dad know nothing about mining, it's too difficult for them to grasp.  Desktops are so passe in the typical family home, let alone a "gaming desktop."  Laptops, consoles, tablets, and phones are what the kids are using.  Only hard-core gaming enthusiasts would even be able to afford a 1080ti.  You think that mom and dad are going to buy their kids a $1500 computer to play games when a console costs $200-$500?


Quote
to not see that this is better then 1 million asics  is sad dude  so sad.

to think that 1 million of these  have zero difference then 1 million asics is sad so sad so very sad.

We live in the world of mining, using some consumer electronics (GPU rigs) to do so.  Then along comes specialized hardware that does it better and then we are resistant to that?  Why?  

If we want to be idealistic and say only GPUs can participate, then what happens?  People buy more GPUs.  So that hypothetical family who has the single 1080ti mining away at night starts getting fewer and fewer profit, and eventually... one of them figures out that it's not worth the electricity cost.  Mining is a race, and the game-theory/reward system will benefit someone who puts more effort into it.


Quote
That said  it simply means  there is a place for active gpu mining  along with asics and fpga and cpus.

I don't think there's no place for CPUs, GPUs, etc for casual mining.  But if you are mining to generate coins that you hope will be "worth" something... then everyone who is anti-ASIC is being disingenuous to themselves.  The whole point of mining is that you are rewarded for the effort.


Quote
a bicycle  would work well below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3kL6nMap2s

LOL... I've been in a few of those traffic jams in Beijing.
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August 05, 2018, 09:23:27 PM
 #810

Oh... and philipma1957...

Let me state my position on ASICs definitively...

ASICs are not the enemy of centralization.  They are just a more efficient tool.  Pools are the enemy of centralization.


If you want a truly decentralized ecosystem, you have to make it anti-pool... not anti-ASIC.
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August 05, 2018, 10:39:25 PM
 #811

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4218

looks like a new fork for monero

this is pretty good news.

the key is can they fork often enough to hold off the asics?

I believe Monero forks every 6 months.

We need four or five forking coins for gpus

The rest can be FPGA and or asics.

The way I see it there are only about 3 coins for GPUs which have enough miner revenue for everybody.

1) Ethereum
2) XMR
3) Ethereum Classic

ZEC is pretty much done with GPUs and other coins like BTG just don't have a large enough price to make a significant difference.

If only BTC forked to a different algo, then that would be interesting.

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August 05, 2018, 11:19:37 PM
 #812

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4218

looks like a new fork for monero

this is pretty good news.

the key is can they fork often enough to hold off the asics?

I believe Monero forks every 6 months.

We need four or five forking coins for gpus

The rest can be FPGA and or asics.

The way I see it there are only about 3 coins for GPUs which have enough miner revenue for everybody.

1) Ethereum
2) XMR
3) Ethereum Classic

ZEC is pretty much done with GPUs and other coins like BTG just don't have a large enough price to make a significant difference.

If only BTC forked to a different algo, then that would be interesting.

Btg could price pump since they are going to fork over and over again at least they claim they will fork again.

Zec is dead.


ETH
Xmr
Etc all could have life.

X16r
Bis are small.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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August 06, 2018, 01:29:19 AM
 #813

Oh... and philipma1957...

Let me state my position on ASICs definitively...

ASICs are not the enemy of centralization.  They are just a more efficient tool.  Pools are the enemy of centralization.


If you want a truly decentralized ecosystem, you have to make it anti-pool... not anti-ASIC.

I 2nd this comment.   Countless coins have had their profitability destroyed by pools like zpool.
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August 06, 2018, 01:49:09 AM
 #814

Not sure how I feel about eth / etc being for gpus. Bitmain has an “asic” in this algo. Not sure how it compares to gpu. But it’s surely more plug and play then building a gpu rig.

I could be wrong , and probably am but where there is one asic , there could always be a “new” version in he works.
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August 06, 2018, 02:01:01 AM
Merited by bittawm (1)
 #815

Oh... and philipma1957...

Let me state my position on ASICs definitively...

ASICs are not the enemy of centralization.  They are just a more efficient tool.  Pools are the enemy of centralization.


If you want a truly decentralized ecosystem, you have to make it anti-pool... not anti-ASIC.

I 2nd this comment.   Countless coins have had their profitability destroyed by pools like zpool.

Zpool , mining-pool hub, nice-hash drive all towards Btc.

If banned and rendered non existent you need an exchange to turn coin to btc.

If you want to be private most exchanges prevent this.

I can mine ETH on nicehash with a core wallet direct to btc and stay anonymous for years.

Same on Zpool.

Take the exchange pools out I have to hold the coin I mine . Many don’t want that risk.

Many won’t hold 1000 BTG.

But they will hold 5 BTC.

Asics builders kill coins because they can build more gear then any coin can support.

Gpu builders don’t kill coins because gpus are mixed use.

Anyone that fails to see dumping every bicycle in the world because motorbikes are faster fails to see the full picture.

But. What do I know not much as I see but a piece of the puzzle.

I am for some asics
I am for some FPGAs
I am for some Gpus
I am for some CPUs

To mine various coins and algos

Just as I am for

Bicycles
Motorbikes
Cars
Trucks
Buses

To take care of various transportation needs

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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August 06, 2018, 03:38:48 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1), bittawm (1)
 #816

Asics builders kill coins because they can build more gear then any coin can support.

Gpu builders don’t kill coins because gpus are mixed use.

I'll have to disagree with this.  It's just not that simple or black/white.  There are many factors that kill coins.  Most coins really serve no purpose other than to exist.  Miners dumping mined coins in exchange for BTC kill a coin's "value", which was probably propped  up by speculation to begin with.  Saying that an increased hashrate/difficulty brought on by ASICs is what kills coins is not looking at the full picture.

And what happens when a new generation of GPUs arrives?  Will people blame the new generation of GPUs for killing coins because they have better hashrates than the old GPUs... and now their old GPUs are worth less, and mine less?


Quote
Anyone that fails to see dumping every bicycle in the world because motorbikes are faster fails to see the full picture.

It's the price of progress.  Efficiency always wins in the end.  Trust me when I say that owning a car for many people in the future... say 10-20 years... will seem quaint and old fashioned.  Ride-sharing and self-driving cars will dominate the transportation market.  The economies of scale will kick in and paying for a ride will be much cheaper than owning, maintaining, and parking a car of your own.

None of that will prevent you from owning your own car, or a bicycle.  It just won't be the most cost efficient or time efficient way to travel.


Quote
But. What do I know not much as I see but a piece of the puzzle.

I am for some asics
I am for some FPGAs
I am for some Gpus
I am for some CPUs

To mine various coins and algos

Just as I am for

Bicycles
Motorbikes
Cars
Trucks
Buses

To take care of various transportation needs

There's room for all types... but that doesn't mean that some are not more efficient than the others.  Some have distinct advantages in some situations.  But as it relates to mining, ASICs are the most efficent at POW.

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August 06, 2018, 05:29:38 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #817

Oh... and philipma1957...

Let me state my position on ASICs definitively...

ASICs are not the enemy of centralization.  They are just a more efficient tool.  Pools are the enemy of centralization.


If you want a truly decentralized ecosystem, you have to make it anti-pool... not anti-ASIC.

I 2nd this comment.   Countless coins have had their profitability destroyed by pools like zpool.

Zpool , mining-pool hub, nice-hash drive all towards Btc.

If banned and rendered non existent you need an exchange to turn coin to btc.

If you want to be private most exchanges prevent this.

I can mine ETH on nicehash with a core wallet direct to btc and stay anonymous for years.

Same on Zpool.

Take the exchange pools out I have to hold the coin I mine . Many don’t want that risk.

Many won’t hold 1000 BTG.

But they will hold 5 BTC.

Asics builders kill coins because they can build more gear then any coin can support.

Gpu builders don’t kill coins because gpus are mixed use.

Anyone that fails to see dumping every bicycle in the world because motorbikes are faster fails to see the full picture.

But. What do I know not much as I see but a piece of the puzzle.

I am for some asics
I am for some FPGAs
I am for some Gpus
I am for some CPUs

To mine various coins and algos

Just as I am for

Bicycles
Motorbikes
Cars
Trucks
Buses

To take care of various transportation needs

I get that, but my problem with them isn't dumping the coins for btc.  One pool selling coins isn't going to drive the market down.  The real issue is when they have 10-15 coins per algo, mine on each coin when the difficulty is low, once the difficulty skyrockets they move on to the next coin.  They currently have 11 TH/S on blake2s right now, with 5 different coins.  They will put 100% hashrate on a tiny altcoin until the difficulty on another one goes down.  Talk about centralization.  They control way over 51% of the hashrate on many coins.
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August 06, 2018, 06:48:20 AM
 #818

Hmm so a rig stopped mining after being 8+ months stable.

Now all of a sudden it has completely lost the ability to detect a GPU via riser.

Plug directly >>> all GPU work
Plug via riser (any slot, any GPU, any riser) >>> no lights, no fan, no nothing. Yes I tried many many risers from spares etc.

I stripped the rig down to 1 GPU with the same results;
Directly >>> fine
Riser >>> nothing at all. Not even a LED!!!
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August 06, 2018, 07:08:30 AM
 #819

Hmm so a rig stopped mining after being 8+ months stable.

Now all of a sudden it has completely lost the ability to detect a GPU via riser.

Plug directly >>> all GPU work
Plug via riser (any slot, any GPU, any riser) >>> no lights, no fan, no nothing. Yes I tried many many risers from spares etc.

I stripped the rig down to 1 GPU with the same results;
Directly >>> fine
Riser >>> nothing at all. Not even a LED!!!
Long shot, but try to set PCIe to gen1 in BIOS if you haven't already. Maybe the slot is getting old and can't sustain the requirements of the higher settings?... It's worth a try. Especially if all GPUs are affected.

If only one gpu's showing that problem, try switching slots and see if the behaviour remains. Or try another mobo.

Good luck with the bitch that is rig troubleshooting...


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August 06, 2018, 07:39:03 AM
 #820

Hmm so a rig stopped mining after being 8+ months stable.

Now all of a sudden it has completely lost the ability to detect a GPU via riser.

Plug directly >>> all GPU work
Plug via riser (any slot, any GPU, any riser) >>> no lights, no fan, no nothing. Yes I tried many many risers from spares etc.

I stripped the rig down to 1 GPU with the same results;
Directly >>> fine
Riser >>> nothing at all. Not even a LED!!!

Try a new motherboard.

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