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[luv2drnkbr]

Micon, do you know if you guys have any plans in the (admittedly far off) future of changing the software over to cryptographically provably fair shuffling algs?

[Zaih]

Micon, do you know if you guys have any plans in the (admittedly far off) future of changing the software over to cryptographically provably fair shuffling algs?

Sort of silly to do that unless you can also find a way to make it so its provably fair in terms of super users etc..

[Micon]

Micon, do you know if you guys have any plans in the (admittedly far off) future of changing the software over to cryptographically provably fair shuffling algs?

this is a very good question.

ST6 has discussed making a provably fair shuffling algorithm.  It is very hard to do from what I understand.  We are going to have many more options available to us after we complete server-side improvements. 

Should be a fun 2013 @ SwC

[puffpuffpass]

LOL is puffpuff really BFL Josh???  Oh man that would be funny.  Hey Josh, yeah, they have some down time, but you know what they also have, a product that has been delivered to their customers.

You really think he would waste time here? lol

[superfire]

Micon, do you know if you guys have any plans in the (admittedly far off) future of changing the software over to cryptographically provably fair shuffling algs?

this is a very good question.

ST6 has discussed making a provably fair shuffling algorithm.  It is very hard to do from what I understand.  We are going to have many more options available to us after we complete server-side improvements. 

Should be a fun 2013 @ SwC

SWC is currently not running on a provably fair shuffling algorithm?
this clearly explains why some users tend to hit their 1-2 outers on the turn/river more often than not.

wp gg

[deadserious]

SWC is currently not running on a provably fair shuffling algorithm?
this clearly explains why some users tend to hit their 1-2 outers on the turn/river more often than not.

The shuffling algorithm is public and generally accepted to be the most fair way to pseudorandomly shuffle a virtual deck of cards.  It's the same algorithm used by all trusted poker sites.

"Provably fair" is a term being used to mean that the entire shuffle can be reproduced with a seed that can be publicly known or reproduced and independently verified.  The seed of each shuffle is currently neither reproducible or public. 

[cAPSLOCK]

To be honest... The firm appearance of rigtards is another rite of passage for seals. 

Congrats freemoney, mic on and st6.  Seals is realer than ever.

[Micon]

To be honest... The firm appearance of rigtards is another rite of passage for seals. 

Congrats freemoney, mic on and st6.  Seals is realer than ever.

While this makes me chuckle, I think it's important to address any issue that any player or group of players have.  Yes, someone will always be screaming that it's rigged based on 1 card.  But if someone has a legitimate question I'm 100% available micon@sealswithclubs.eu with any topic.

The shuffling algorithm is public and generally accepted to be the most fair way to pseudorandomly shuffle a virtual deck of cards.  It's the same algorithm used by all trusted poker sites.

"Provably fair" is a term being used to mean that the entire shuffle can be reproduced with a seed that can be publicly known or reproduced and independently verified.  The seed of each shuffle is currently neither reproducible or public. 

This is more accurate.  It won't be long until someone does an independant study.  They will find over a large dataset that cards are dealt fairly and "randomly enough" [as not to get into a deep debate about the fact that there are no random numbers]

[Wingman4l7]

To be honest... The firm appearance of rigtards is another rite of passage for seals.

Cannot agree with this enough -- this just helps to confirm that Seals is coming into the big-time.  The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

The shuffling algorithm is public and generally accepted to be the most fair way to pseudorandomly shuffle a virtual deck of cards.  It's the same algorithm used by all trusted poker sites.

"Provably fair" is a term being used to mean that the entire shuffle can be reproduced with a seed that can be publicly known or reproduced and independently verified.  The seed of each shuffle is currently neither reproducible or public.

SealsWithClubs would probably do themselves a service to publicly post the link to Poker Maven's description of its RNG / hand-shuffling algorithm on their site's FAQ page: http://www.briggsoft.com/docs/pmavens/Utilities.htm#shuffle  I must have linked to that half a dozen times already.

Micon, do you know if you guys have any plans in the (admittedly far off) future of changing the software over to cryptographically provably fair shuffling algs?

I don't know if this could be done -- they use Poker Mavens on the server side, which is closed-source.  Maybe SwC could somehow have the server write the seeds used for a hand to the hand history, after it is played?  That seems like it's asking for trouble though, if someone managed to get into their server and intercept the hand seed output before a hand has finished.

[Nite69]

 Maybe SwC could somehow have the server write the seeds used for a hand to the hand history, after it is played?  That seems like it's asking for trouble though, if someone managed to get into their server and intercept the hand seed output before a hand has finished.

AFAIK, the problem is that if someone folds a hand, the cards should never be shown to any 3rd person.. If the seed is revealed, all players hands are shown. Is it so?

[Nite69]

[as not to get into a deep debate about the fact that there are no random numbers]

Getting a bit deeper; there are truly random numbers: http://www.random.org/

But they practically do not differ from pseudo-random, unless you believe in some true random magic.. whoops, maybe some poker players do.. but what's the difference to pseudorandom magic ;-) And the seed next deck gets is quite much truely random. It depends on every players thinking delays etc.

[Micon]

To be honest... The firm appearance of rigtards is another rite of passage for seals.

Cannot agree with this enough -- this just helps to confirm that Seals is coming into the big-time.  The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

The shuffling algorithm is public and generally accepted to be the most fair way to pseudorandomly shuffle a virtual deck of cards.  It's the same algorithm used by all trusted poker sites.

"Provably fair" is a term being used to mean that the entire shuffle can be reproduced with a seed that can be publicly known or reproduced and independently verified.  The seed of each shuffle is currently neither reproducible or public.

SealsWithClubs would probably do themselves a service to publicly post the link to Poker Maven's description of its RNG / hand-shuffling algorithm on their site's FAQ page: http://www.briggsoft.com/docs/pmavens/Utilities.htm#shuffle  I must have linked to that half a dozen times already.

Micon, do you know if you guys have any plans in the (admittedly far off) future of changing the software over to cryptographically provably fair shuffling algs?

I don't know if this could be done -- they use Poker Mavens on the server side, which is closed-source.  Maybe SwC could somehow have the server write the seeds used for a hand to the hand history, after it is played?  That seems like it's asking for trouble though, if someone managed to get into their server and intercept the hand seed output before a hand has finished.

I appreciate all of these thoughts and understand many of our players are thinking deeply about our system.

While I cannot say too much at this stage, I feel it is important to note that SwC is already *heavily* modified from plain downloadable Mavens software.   We are continuously making server-side improvements and working closely with all software providers.

IMO exciting things will continuously happen to SwC in 2013, stay tuned.

[milly6]

SWC is currently not running on a provably fair shuffling algorithm?
this clearly explains why some users tend to hit their 1-2 outers on the turn/river more often than not.

The shuffling algorithm is public and generally accepted to be the most fair way to pseudorandomly shuffle a virtual deck of cards.  It's the same algorithm used by all trusted poker sites.

"Provably fair" is a term being used to mean that the entire shuffle can be reproduced with a seed that can be publicly known or reproduced and independently verified.  The seed of each shuffle is currently neither reproducible or public. 

Furthurmore I do not trust most "trusted" online poker sites. Just sayin.

[Micon]

[as not to get into a deep debate about the fact that there are no random numbers]

Getting a bit deeper; there are truly random numbers: http://www.random.org/

But they practically do not differ from pseudo-random, unless you believe in some true random magic.. whoops, maybe some poker players do.. but what's the difference to pseudorandom magic ;-) And the seed next deck gets is quite much truely random. It depends on every players thinking delays etc.

1) I would say as a whole poker players do not believe in magic, religion, or unscientific ideas of any sort.  Certainly there are exceptions but by nature we are skeptical, not accepting.

2) getting ever deeper still, IMO still still pseudo-random, just different seed.   

"The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs"

the best pseudo-random number generator that sits best in my stupid human brain is this Intel chip: 

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator

I like thermal noise mixed with 8th decimal background radiation readings.  I like how it feels in my belly.  That doesn't make it any less pseudo-random IMO.

no numbers are random.  if you could get the same measurements... throw it threw the same algorithm... or realize background radiation trends at the site... if you could calculate the entire world's flow of particles couldn't you determine all of these "random" numbers?

[cAPSLOCK]

Facts:

1. Pseudo random numbers will produce hole cards, flops turns and rivers which over a reasonable sample size will show the expected distribution.  I would bet 10BTC against the idea that analysis of enough data from hands at seals would show abnormal distribution.  If someone is interested in this I will detail ,y terms.

2. SWC stands to make shittons of money even charging as reasonable a rake as they do.  It is in their best interest to provide the fairest environment possible to their regulars and recreational players.  Nothing is really more important than trust for them.  The client etc all come in second at best.

3.  There are surely many many thousands of dollars (possible understatement) being held in wallets by seals.  If they wanted an unethical payday they would disappear with that money.  They have not done this.

As a player at seals for well over a year, I can vouch for the quality of the people running it.  They have earned my trust.  And as I said... To my analysis the distribution of cards is absolutely normal.

[Micon]

Facts:

1. Pseudo random numbers will produce hole cards, flops turns and rivers which over a reasonable sample size will show the expected distribution.  I would bet 10BTC against the idea that analysis of enough data from hands at seals would show abnormal distribution.  If someone is interested in this I will detail ,y terms.

2. SWC stands to make shittons of money even charging as reasonable a rake as they do.  It is in their best interest to provide the fairest environment possible to their regulars and recreational players.  Nothing is really more important than trust for them.  The client etc all come in second at best.

3.  There are surely many many thousands of dollars (possible understatement) being held in wallets by seals.  If they wanted an unethical payday they would disappear with that money.  They have not done this.

As a player at seals for well over a year, I can vouch for the quality of the people running it.  They have earned my trust.  And as I said... To my analysis the distribution of cards is absolutely normal.

I appreciate those words.

I have personally been in the online poker industry in some capacity for over a decade.  I have seen some of the most egregious thefts (UB / AP) and some of the most colossal implosions (FTP) and we see what those sites have become and in what regard the public holds their past principals...

Our plan is quite simple:  Do everything right.

Including, but not limited to:

-- Always keeping player BTC segregated (Always have, always will. obvious & a no-brainer.  100% always able to pay all players immediately)
-- Keeping rake extremely low (as we scale I wonder how low we can go...)
-- Ever vigilant customer support (I think our record stands for itself on this matter - this is impossible to fake - you msg us with an issue we will respond ASAP.  micon@sealswithclubs.eu for any issue, I will personally help you)
-- Strong affiliate program to build from within (I personally believe players currently playing on SwC are the only ones qualified to become an affiliate - it damages the brand to have someone that doesn't know BTC backwards and forwards try to get a guy to sign up.  With all the current slow-pay going on in the poker world, my first question as a player in 2013 is "what are the payout terms"  and the 2nd is always "what is their history of meeting said terms?" A guy needs to be a bitcoin poker player to properly explain how they currently buy & sell their coins, as that front is ever-changing as well)
-- Build the sickest gaming platform you have ever seen with every option on every game all at an extremely low rake (we are working on it.  I want 14-game with a round of OFC as much as the next degenerate.  Shit I just want to blast BTC OFC during WSOP.  But that won't likely happen in 2013, but IMO is a likely reality in 2014.  Hang with us, we can feel that love coming off our ever-growing player pool.  We are hard at work in the background on all fronts.  I am personally fired up to see what happens during the rest of 2013)

[WearsMyLiberty]

I appreciate those words.

I have personally been in the online poker industry in some capacity for over a decade.  I have seen some of the most egregious thefts (UB / AP) and some of the most colossal implosions (FTP) and we see what those sites have become and in what regard the public holds their past principals...

Our plan is quite simple:  Do everything right.

Including, but not limited to:

-- Always keeping player BTC segregated (Always have, always will. obvious & a no-brainer.  100% always able to pay all players immediately)
-- Keeping rake extremely low (as we scale I wonder how low we can go...)
-- Ever vigilant customer support (I think our record stands for itself on this matter - this is impossible to fake - you msg us with an issue we will respond ASAP.  micon@sealswithclubs.eu for any issue, I will personally help you)
-- Strong affiliate program to build from within (I personally believe players currently playing on SwC are the only ones qualified to become an affiliate - it damages the brand to have someone that doesn't know BTC backwards and forwards try to get a guy to sign up.  With all the current slow-pay going on in the poker world, my first question as a player in 2013 is "what are the payout terms"  and the 2nd is always "what is their history of meeting said terms?" A guy needs to be a bitcoin poker player to properly explain how they currently buy & sell their coins, as that front is ever-changing as well)
-- Build the sickest gaming platform you have ever seen with every option on every game all at an extremely low rake (we are working on it.  I want 14-game with a round of OFC as much as the next degenerate.  Shit I just want to blast BTC OFC during WSOP.  But that won't likely happen in 2013, but IMO is a likely reality in 2014.  Hang with us, we can feel that love coming off our ever-growing player pool.  We are hard at work in the background on all fronts.  I am personally fired up to see what happens during the rest of 2013)

I've played on a bunch of sites since I started playing online in '05.  I was screwed multiple times by UB, and had most of my roll locked up because of Full Tilt.

I've been playing on Seals for a little over a month and I have to agree with everything Micon said.  From what I've seen Seals is doing it right. 

The improvements I'm looking forward to are some more features added to the software and an increase in the number of players.  But even in my short time here I've seen improvements in both of those areas and I am confident that they will continue.

I haven't seriously played online since Black Friday because it's too difficult to move money on and off and I don't trust leaving a large amount on their site.  Like Micon said, I think that's the number one question by potential players.  I see people complain about their withdrawal taking hours from Seals... while players on other sites are waiting weeks and months for a check that might not even be good by the time it arrives.  That's why I'm so confident that Seals will continue to grow as more people find out about it.  People are interested when you tell them that they can go from cash to the site in about an hour, and from the site to their bank in a couple days.

Right now Seals is the only site that I would play on.  I'm excited about the future and will do what I can to help it grow.

[Micon]

I appreciate those words.

I have personally been in the online poker industry in some capacity for over a decade.  I have seen some of the most egregious thefts (UB / AP) and some of the most colossal implosions (FTP) and we see what those sites have become and in what regard the public holds their past principals...

Our plan is quite simple:  Do everything right.

Including, but not limited to:

-- Always keeping player BTC segregated (Always have, always will. obvious & a no-brainer.  100% always able to pay all players immediately)
-- Keeping rake extremely low (as we scale I wonder how low we can go...)
-- Ever vigilant customer support (I think our record stands for itself on this matter - this is impossible to fake - you msg us with an issue we will respond ASAP.  micon@sealswithclubs.eu for any issue, I will personally help you)
-- Strong affiliate program to build from within (I personally believe players currently playing on SwC are the only ones qualified to become an affiliate - it damages the brand to have someone that doesn't know BTC backwards and forwards try to get a guy to sign up.  With all the current slow-pay going on in the poker world, my first question as a player in 2013 is "what are the payout terms"  and the 2nd is always "what is their history of meeting said terms?" A guy needs to be a bitcoin poker player to properly explain how they currently buy & sell their coins, as that front is ever-changing as well)
-- Build the sickest gaming platform you have ever seen with every option on every game all at an extremely low rake (we are working on it.  I want 14-game with a round of OFC as much as the next degenerate.  Shit I just want to blast BTC OFC during WSOP.  But that won't likely happen in 2013, but IMO is a likely reality in 2014.  Hang with us, we can feel that love coming off our ever-growing player pool.  We are hard at work in the background on all fronts.  I am personally fired up to see what happens during the rest of 2013)

I've played on a bunch of sites since I started playing online in '05.  I was screwed multiple times by UB, and had most of my roll locked up because of Full Tilt.

I've been playing on Seals for a little over a month and I have to agree with everything Micon said.  From what I've seen Seals is doing it right. 

The improvements I'm looking forward to are some more features added to the software and an increase in the number of players.  But even in my short time here I've seen improvements in both of those areas and I am confident that they will continue.

I haven't seriously played online since Black Friday because it's too difficult to move money on and off and I don't trust leaving a large amount on their site.  Like Micon said, I think that's the number one question by potential players.  I see people complain about their withdrawal taking hours from Seals... while players on other sites are waiting weeks and months for a check that might not even be good by the time it arrives.  That's why I'm so confident that Seals will continue to grow as more people find out about it.  People are interested when you tell them that they can go from cash to the site in about an hour, and from the site to their bank in a couple days.

Right now Seals is the only site that I would play on.  I'm excited about the future and will do what I can to help it grow.

Thanks for the kind words about SwC.  When I look into the future I see:

-- Even faster cashouts [yes, we can get faster as we build infrastructure]
-- More games [we have plans]
-- More players [we have plans]
-- More compatibility [play anywhere on any device]

This team is aggressive.  We are proud of what has already been done but extremely hungry for the future.

[Nite69]

no numbers are random.  if you could get the same measurements... throw it threw the same algorithm... or realize background radiation trends at the site... if you could calculate the entire world's flow of particles couldn't you determine all of these "random" numbers?

Ok, this is getting philoshopical.. that's one way of thinking, you might be right. However, there are other opinions also. We can argue if quantum events are truely random or not.. it is even possible to claim that actually all possible every quantum based event happens in some universe (multiversum theory). Well, is it random any longer then?

Quite funny to think that according to multiversum theory, every tournament goes on with every possible tables and hand I could imagine. I just happen to see and experience that particular serie of cards. Actually, If you 'believe' in this theory, you might oppose pseudo-randomness..

But truly vs pseudorandomness is something we cannot prove, so let's just leave it ;-) Actually, my opinion is that we really do not know. There are randomness or not, but we really do not know how it is. Pseudo-random is anyway good for me. And actually, player delays makes pseudo random very truely random (I assume every shuffle is made with a new seed which is generated at the shuffle time, which is dependant on player delays on that table *and* the others).

btw, It's very clear that random.org etc are out of question for a poker site. Getting the numbers outside would be way too risky.

[Nite69]

Facts:

1. Pseudo random numbers will produce hole cards, flops turns and rivers which over a reasonable sample size will show the expected distribution.  I would bet 10BTC against the idea that analysis of enough data from hands at seals would show abnormal distribution.  If someone is interested in this I will detail ,y terms.

2. SWC stands to make shittons of money even charging as reasonable a rake as they do.  It is in their best interest to provide the fairest environment possible to their regulars and recreational players.  Nothing is really more important than trust for them.  The client etc all come in second at best.

3.  There are surely many many thousands of dollars (possible understatement) being held in wallets by seals.  If they wanted an unethical payday they would disappear with that money.  They have not done this.

As a player at seals for well over a year, I can vouch for the quality of the people running it.  They have earned my trust.  And as I said... To my analysis the distribution of cards is absolutely normal.

I fully agree.

Actually, one thing that worries me, (after what happened to Slush and bitcoin-central), is that even very reliable site could get hacked. Of course, I trust your capabilities and I assume you have done very good job minimising the risk and possible losses. Actualy, I feel quite safe regarding seals. Slush and BC minimized ther losses and I believe you do as good job as they did.

However, I would feel safest, if I could send the BTC to the site before starting to play and then send my wallet back after I stop. I think it is almost impossibe to make it completely work like that, transactions should be immediate to make it happen.

I assume you make manual transactions as a final step to prevent cheaters from withdrawaling the chips and possibly preventing some unwanted accidents. That's good. But how about adding some kind of credit to the system? Let's say, a player has a roll of 2k. He has 2k on the site and makes a 'conditional withdrawal' for that. That request is manually accepted just like normal withdrawal. However, after that, a player has a 'credit' for 2k, so before session, he can send the 2k back to the site, then play and afterwards make *immediate* withdrawal for max 2k. That would make possible to keep roll on player's own wallet instead of the site.

Actually, initial 'credit' could be the deposit amount.

i can imagine one way of abusing it; if player loses all his roll and after that gets the same amount of chips by cheating. Then he could withdrawal the cheated chips without manual intervention.

When I was thinking about how slush and BC was hacked, another idea came to my mind; some kind of emergency transaction, which, when triggered, would send the hot wallet to an offline wallet. So when the site is rebooted unintentionally, or something otherwise weird happens (you know better what could be suspicious), the online wallet would be immediately emptied to an offline wallet, leaving the thief empty handed. Of course, the best would be to have no online wallet (I think it would be possible, if very carefully designed).

Btw, do you have a 'dead mans switch', which would send all player's money to their withdrawal addresses if FBI knocks on your door ;-) ?