[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Simcom]

I spent a fair amount of time thinking about the discussion with dime, humanitee, luigi1111, camosoul and others yesterday about the anonymity of Darksend.  I suspected that the logic behind darksend as currently implemented was not sound, and I thought it would be best to determine how exactly darksend was working, and do an in-depth analysis of a mixing cycle and the transactions that follow mixing.

...

Best,
Sim

Wow! This is great. About 400+ pages ago I talked about having a different kind of pool for change outputs only. Put in all of your change outputs and you'll get new fresh clean inputs of 10DRK. The client could automatically do this after each darksend, which would also get you new inputs for the next round.

I'm currently embedded in patching stratum and p2pool to support the masternode payments, which is why I haven't been around. It takes a lot of work to make something so different from anything else out there, dare I say, revolutionary?

I like the idea of an automatic restructuring of  the change eduffield suggests here.  I think it would be a nice easy simple clean way of dealing with change addresses.  When mixed with other change addresses, to rebuild 10 coin blocks, nobody'd know where the change came from or went to.

I'm sorry, Simcom, but I don't see where Evan cancelled or re-scheduled or did anything to the plans of RC3 from this?

Anyway, I also wanted to say I think adding a blockchain node is an amazing idea!  People could run them right from their wallet, and it'd be a way for everyone to participate in "Proof of Service" without feeling the need to hold large amounts of coin.  I would guess that because more people would be able to provide this service, the payments wouldn't be that great, but it may well be worth it just to provide some storage space.  We still have to be sure it's worth while for people to mine though!  Mining makes the world go around (or in this case, makes the coin function!)  There is only so much coin produced.  The price of coin will really have to increase to make all this functional.... Not easy!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6465870#msg6465870

[TanteStefana]

what's the TL;DR for the issues being discussed?

To have good anonymity, the amount disappearing from the sender's address must have a low probability of being close to the intended payment. This is accomplished by low granularity. E.g. to spend anywhere from 100 to 1000 DRK, you must input 1000 DRK. This is obviously inconvenient because what if I want to send 115 DRK but only own 180 DRK?

Providing more granularity either in the protocol itself or by manually doing multiple Darksends (e.g. 100 + 10 + 10) causes plausible deniability to plummet. Sure it may still be hard for a human to piece together a set of possible histories, but a computer could analyze millions of permutations per second and possibly give confident inferences of the sender-receiver mappings.

I agree that this is a valid concern. Don't overestimate the degree of anonymity just because it quickly gets messy in your human head -- blockchain analysis by computers have produced impressive results for connecting BTC holdings to identities despite the complexity provided by a large user base.

Temporal spreading of sends is a possible solution, though very inconvenient for users.

If every input comes with a different address (which it already does), how would anyone know that the 6-10 coin deposits you put into a pool of other 10 coin inputs are yours?  Even if there is an output of 550 coins in the group, how would anyone know which 6 accounts made up the input? and from which wallet?  As I understand it, only the wallet knows which addresses belong to it?  No?

[TanteStefana]

@Simcom Every time you believe that you may have find a flaw with DarkSend but yet you don't seem to totally understand or know about the way it works. Take your time to read the thread, some of your questions and concerns have already been answered long ago.

LOL seriously?  The last issue I raised (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6459044#msg6459044) was so serious that Evan decided to devote an entire release (RC3) to fix it.  I am just trying to help. :/

He is constantly refining things in upcoming releases, he didn't say he would be devoting an entire release to this.  He just said he'd add it to the next release.  He has no set schedule, just a loose plan.  If he needs 50 RC releases to get it right, he'll use them.  I certainly didn't get the impression that the issue was so serious he had to do a new release.  He has a lot of refinement to achieve before full release.

Anyway, it is indeed nice to know Evan is always keeping an eye on the thread, even if he isn't always commenting.  He seems to pop up when good points are made, which is really awesome.

[mannie]

I know a few people are worried about the drop in price but I'm not sweating it. I think it bears repeating that fundamentals will always win out.

There are macroeconomic risks, like with anything else, but let's look at the fundamentals: we have committed developers that have proven their abilities, we're early in the crypto game with most of the public yet to jump in with their wealth, we have a gap in the market for an anonymous decentralized digital currency and we're achingly close to releasing the final DarkSend product.

Just like a producer which has oil in the ground, there are fundamentals that haven't changed, despite the slight changes in psychology, sentiment and the short attention span of some traders. Scam coins will flare up and fade away but something like this has fundamentals in its favour.

Just my 2c. Good luck to us all.

[GhostPlayer]

This wouldn't be accurate either. The correct phrase should be: I used some of the code from sph_miner with some of the code from cpuminer and some improvements of my own... As for getting the speeds people are getting with their 280x, thay are overclocking really high. My hardware does not support that, so i cannot test with the same settings as them. The best i can do is 2.5Gh/s with 1100/1500 OC.

So basically, you got code from free software, tweaked it around, and want to sell it ?

 .!.

I'm happy with my 5x 280x Vapor-X doing 2.2mh/ each, totalling 650w (at the wall). You still havent answered, how much does your rig consume?

This is mining p2pool with I=18... on MPOS I use I=19 and get 2.2 - 2.3 MH/s

-k darkcoin -o http://q30.qhor.net:7903 -u Xdeq6pcN3cPsZtta6jsA286N4jbuwVn51D+0.00254200 -p x --auto-fan --gpu-fan 40-85 --temp-cutoff 92 --temp-overheat 88 --temp-target 64 -I 18 -g 1 -w 128 --lookup-gap 2 --thread-concurrency 8192 --gpu-powertune 20 --gpu-engine 1100 --gpu-memclock 1500

Try lowering the intensity - the reject rate is hurting your profits.

I have! This one is actually cause by ping being too high. Just comparing stats. I have a 15ms node nearby and my reject rate with these settings is aroun 1.5%. If I go lower, hashrate drops and rejects are the same. But I'm liking this pool.

If you check the pool miners though, everyone seems to have crazy high reject rates, the earnings do add up nicely, Its the best one, no hidden stats etc. I cant understand why everyone has such high %, but like I said, my earning are higher than MPOS so I 'm not complaining. On my near by nodes, rejects are lower, but so is hashrate for some reason, payouts are great too (the same) - BUT - the metrics there not all there like pool luck and average payouts etc..

http://q30.qhor.net - mind you, I'm still in ramp-up here.

[chaeplin]

what's the TL;DR for the issues being discussed?

To have good anonymity, the amount disappearing from the sender's address must have a low probability of being close to the intended payment. This is accomplished by low granularity. E.g. to spend anywhere from 100 to 1000 DRK, you must input 1000 DRK. This is obviously inconvenient because what if I want to send 115 DRK but only own 180 DRK?

Providing more granularity either in the protocol itself or by manually doing multiple Darksends (e.g. 100 + 10 + 10) causes plausible deniability to plummet. Sure it may still be hard for a human to piece together a set of possible histories, but a computer could analyze millions of permutations per second and possibly give confident inferences of the sender-receiver mappings.

I agree that this is a valid concern. Don't overestimate the degree of anonymity just because it quickly gets messy in your human head -- blockchain analysis by computers have produced impressive results for connecting BTC holdings to identities despite the complexity provided by a large user base.

Temporal spreading of sends is a possible solution, though very inconvenient for users.

If every input comes with a different address (which it already does), how would anyone know that the 6-10 coin deposits you put into a pool of other 10 coin inputs are yours?  Even if there is an output of 550 coins in the group, how would anyone know which 6 accounts made up the input? and from which wallet?  As I understand it, only the wallet knows which addresses belong to it?  No?

+1 I'd completely forgotten about input address. Only the wallet knows.

[TanteStefana]

I know a few people are worried about the drop in price but I'm not sweating it. I think it bares repeating that fundamentals will always win out.

There are macroeconomic risks, like with anything else, but let's look at the fundamentals: we have committed developers that have proven their abilities, we're early in the crypto game with most of the public yet to jump in with their wealth, we have a gap in the market for an anonymous decentralized digital currency and we're achingly close to releasing the final DarkSend product.

Just like a producer which has oil in the ground, there are fundamentals that haven't changed, despite the slight changes in psychology, sentiment and the short attention span of some traders. Scam coins will flare up and fade away but something like this has fundamentals in its favour.

Just my 2c. Good luck to us all.

I totally agree, and what I've noticed about our developer is that he's not afraid of changing code.  A lot of people who have devoted time into an implementation of a section of code, will avoid changing it like the plague.  Evan seems to love rewriting it to make it better, even if that section ends up being 8X longer, and he'll do it yet again, making it 2 X smaller and totally change the function around, if it made the product work better.

In other words, I've noticed he doesn't fear work or change, but seems to thrives on making things better.  Just my observations.  It is scary though, that we mostly only have him, and InternetApe at his side.  Would love to someday see 3 good passionate programmers working together.  Maybe when the coin matures it will attract some talent

[GhostPlayer]

 Coinmine down again!
 When they were up, minimum withdrawal was 10 DRK's... wtf?

 (teaching new miners about the game...)

[dotnetmin]

 Coinmine down again!
 When they were up, minimum withdrawal was 10 DRK's... wtf?

 (teaching new miners about the game...)

I have seen that 10DRK thing also 2 weeks ago, but it was only on automatic payout.
I was able to cash out any time i had a cinfirmed balance on the same transaction fee than the automatic transaction fee

[TanteStefana]

I'm still having trouble starting a MasterNode with a local wallet and a VM server.  Can anyone please help me?  I did do a ./darkcoind getaccountaddress 0 and got a different address from what I was using before.  I sent the coin to that address, tried again to start my local wallet up with ./darkcoind -masternodeaddr="server's ip address" , then went to my server address and tried to start the MasterNode, and got "not capable masternode" again.  I wanted to check my "address 0" to make sure that it was correct, so I did ./darkcoind getaccountaddress 0 again, and got a completely new address (I think it just generates new addresses??)  So if it just keeps generating new addresses, I honestly don't think that's the problem

Please, can anyone suggest what I might be forgetting or where to look for issues?  Thanks so much!!

[Simcom]

@Simcom Every time you believe that you may have find a flaw with DarkSend but yet you don't seem to totally understand or know about the way it works. Take your time to read the thread, some of your questions and concerns have already been answered long ago.

LOL seriously?  The last issue I raised (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6459044#msg6459044) was so serious that Evan decided to devote an entire release (RC3) to fix it.  I am just trying to help. :/

He is constantly refining things in upcoming releases, he didn't say he would be devoting an entire release to this.  He just said he'd add it to the next release.  He has no set schedule, just a loose plan.  If he needs 50 RC releases to get it right, he'll use them.  I certainly didn't get the impression that the issue was so serious he had to do a new release.  He has a lot of refinement to achieve before full release.

Anyway, it is indeed nice to know Evan is always keeping an eye on the thread, even if he isn't always commenting.  He seems to pop up when good points are made, which is really awesome.

He posted a nice schedule of his plans, he is adding denominated change addresses in RC3 and raising the max amount to 1000Drk:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6488297#msg6488297

As I detailed in the original post, darksend was/is still completely broken in its current implementation, providing exactly zero anonymity - this will be fixed by multiple denominated change addresses in RC3.

[GhostPlayer]

I'm still having trouble starting a MasterNode with a local wallet and a VM server.  Can anyone please help me?  I did do a ./darkcoind getaccountaddress 0 and got a different address from what I was using before.  I sent the coin to that address, tried again to start my local wallet up with ./darkcoind -masternodeaddr="server's ip address" , then went to my server address and tried to start the MasterNode, and got "not capable masternode" again.  I wanted to check my "address 0" to make sure that it was correct, so I did ./darkcoind getaccountaddress 0 again, and got a completely new address (I think it just generates new addresses??)  So if it just keeps generating new addresses, I honestly don't think that's the problem

Please, can anyone suggest what I might be forgetting or where to look for issues?  Thanks so much!!

IRC dude!

 Did you delete testnet3 ? Got laods of coins if you need... suspect you too since we've been mining the Sh*t out of testnet with our MASSIVE +/- 250kh/s combined haha...

Weird though... just checked myself...

{
        "account" : "0",
        "address" : "msVwP4pBRsEB3o8MH3gTMDyd6VpgNuKTaD",
        "category" : "receive",
        "amount" : 1000.00000000,
        "confirmations" : 1201,
        "blockhash" : "000000017a8ae205d2daf1ec2f05a30537647f03e076dc851b3d8ea0293488b7",
        "blockindex" : 2,
        "blocktime" : 1398982734,
        "txid" : "5780f438d47e75e23dadbe9c34e06d18ed70373cc7d96aaee12038211d50e52f",
        "time" : 1398982689,
        "timereceived" : 1398982689
    },




ubuntu@ip-172-31-23-208:~$ darkcoind getaccountaddress 0
n3EaPbDD1Rxb3Z2VWiso3fw4nDrNRqZBaW
ubuntu@ip-172-31-23-208:~$ darkcoind getaccountaddress 0
n3EaPbDD1Rxb3Z2VWiso3fw4nDrNRqZBaW
ubuntu@ip-172-31-23-208:~$ darkcoind getaccountaddress 0
n3EaPbDD1Rxb3Z2VWiso3fw4nDrNRqZBaW
ubuntu@ip-172-31-23-208:~$ darkcoind getaccountaddress 0
n3EaPbDD1Rxb3Z2VWiso3fw4nDrNRqZBaW
ubuntu@ip-172-31-23-208:~$

Dont masternode addresses start with "m" ?? My 1k transaction was to an "m" address, not an "n".

[dotnetmin]

I know a few people are worried about the drop in price but I'm not sweating it. I think it bares repeating that fundamentals will always win out.

There are macroeconomic risks, like with anything else, but let's look at the fundamentals: we have committed developers that have proven their abilities, we're early in the crypto game with most of the public yet to jump in with their wealth, we have a gap in the market for an anonymous decentralized digital currency and we're achingly close to releasing the final DarkSend product.

Just like a producer which has oil in the ground, there are fundamentals that haven't changed, despite the slight changes in psychology, sentiment and the short attention span of some traders. Scam coins will flare up and fade away but something like this has fundamentals in its favour.

Just my 2c. Good luck to us all.

I can´t see public jump in with their wealth. The only thing i am seeing over the lst six month is that i lost 5000€ in playing crypto game and mining.
Mine any coin for me is minimum 50% loss against buying it than mine it.
Also it looks like there are soo much scammers out. Last thing i made a loss was AC.
I made my loss not with extreamly speculating, it was manly in a now worthless GPU mining rig and bagholding coins.

BTC made a loss from 1200$ to now 400$. All coins depend on BTC and can´t go its own way. Show me any investor that is willing to go in now.
Crypto is getting only lottery game, sorry for me it looks like its time to give up and finally cut my loss.

[gotqn]

Sure.  I have Asus 280x cards -

2.341 avg Mhash (running stable since last reboot(60 hours))
2.1% reject rate

I am just wondering how often you need to restart your mining rig? I have not restart from 2014 February 6th when I started to mine and I am using Ubuntu.

There are not tools like "msi afterburner" for linux and I want to check  is it deserve to not use them in sake of stability.


Also, there are many tutorials and videos how to start mining with Ubuntu (http://askubuntu.com/q/434591/95857).

[eizh]

If every input comes with a different address (which it already does), how would anyone know that the 6-10 coin deposits you put into a pool of other 10 coin inputs are yours?  Even if there is an output of 550 coins in the group, how would anyone know which 6 accounts made up the input? and from which wallet?  As I understand it, only the wallet knows which addresses belong to it?  No?

If you mean the sourcing into the pool, that doesn't always happen from multiple addresses. If you mean the returned change (the pool input change, not the DarkSend change), those can eventually be linked by a sizable spend. Neither is consistently reliable for obfuscating the identity.

[TanteStefana]

I'm still having trouble starting a MasterNode with a local wallet and a VM server.  Can anyone please help me?  I did do a ./darkcoind getaccountaddress 0 and got a different address from what I was using before.  I sent the coin to that address, tried again to start my local wallet up with ./darkcoind -masternodeaddr="server's ip address" , then went to my server address and tried to start the MasterNode, and got "not capable masternode" again.  I wanted to check my "address 0" to make sure that it was correct, so I did ./darkcoind getaccountaddress 0 again, and got a completely new address (I think it just generates new addresses??)  So if it just keeps generating new addresses, I honestly don't think that's the problem

Please, can anyone suggest what I might be forgetting or where to look for issues?  Thanks so much!!

IRC dude!

 Did you delete testnet3 ? Got laods of coins if you need... suspect you too since we've been mining the Sh*t out of testnet with out MASSIVE +/- 250kh/s combined haha...

I thought people were saying they could do this on main-net???  If only testnet, then no wonder, LOL.

I just asked over there if we're still testing, are we?

[Simcom]

what's the TL;DR for the issues being discussed?

To have good anonymity, the amount disappearing from the sender's address must have a low probability of being close to the intended payment. This is accomplished by low granularity. E.g. to spend anywhere from 100 to 1000 DRK, you must input 1000 DRK. This is obviously inconvenient because what if I want to send 115 DRK but only own 180 DRK?

Providing more granularity either in the protocol itself or by manually doing multiple Darksends (e.g. 100 + 10 + 10) causes plausible deniability to plummet. Sure it may still be hard for a human to piece together a set of possible histories, but a computer could analyze millions of permutations per second and possibly give confident inferences of the sender-receiver mappings.

I agree that this is a valid concern. Don't overestimate the degree of anonymity just because it quickly gets messy in your human head -- blockchain analysis by computers have produced impressive results for connecting BTC holdings to identities despite the complexity provided by a large user base.

Temporal spreading of sends is a possible solution, though very inconvenient for users.

If every input comes with a different address (which it already does), how would anyone know that the 6-10 coin deposits you put into a pool of other 10 coin inputs are yours?  Even if there is an output of 550 coins in the group, how would anyone know which 6 accounts made up the input? and from which wallet?  As I understand it, only the wallet knows which addresses belong to it?  No?

+1 I'd completely forgotten about input address. Only the wallet knows.

Not true, all inputs are shown on the blockchain. eg. If you input 2 x 10 inputs into the 10 coin pool, both inputs are shown to come from your address, (unless your wallet contains multiple addresses with coin balances).

[Simcom]

@Simcom Every time you believe that you may have find a flaw with DarkSend but yet you don't seem to totally understand or know about the way it works. Take your time to read the thread, some of your questions and concerns have already been answered long ago.

LOL seriously?  The last issue I raised (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6459044#msg6459044) was so serious that Evan decided to devote an entire release (RC3) to fix it.  I am just trying to help. :/

And you have a very alarmist way of presenting things.  Just saying.

+1

I don't mean to be alarmist, just trying to present the facts as they are. I'm pointing out problems where they exist so that the coin can improve and my investment will gain value.  A goal I'm sure we all share.

[aleix]

Some good advice from the great investor and philanthropist Warren Buffett (to properly play the alt game):
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett)

• You are neither right nor wrong because the crowd disagrees with you. You are right because your data and reasoning are right.
• Wide diversification is only required when investors do not understand what they are doing.
• Never invest in a business you cannot understand.
• Unless you can watch your stock alts holding decline by 50% without becoming panic-stricken, you should not be in the stock market alt -market.
• Why not invest your assets in the companies you really like? As Mae West said, "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful".
• Risk can be greatly reduced by concentrating on only a few holdings.
• Stop trying to predict the direction of the stock alt market, the economy, interest rates, or elections.
• Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy only when others are fearful.
• It is optimism that is the enemy of the rational buyer.
• As far as you are concerned, the stock alt market does not exist. Ignore it.
• The ability to say "no" is a tremendous advantage for an investor.
• Much success can be attributed to inactivity. Most investors cannot resist the temptation to constantly buy and sell.
• Lethargy, bordering on sloth should remain the cornerstone of an investment style.
• An investor should act as though he had a lifetime decision card with just twenty punches on it.
• Wild swings in share prices have more to do with the "lemming- like" behaviour of institutional investors than with the aggregate returns of the company they own.
• As a group, lemmings have a rotten image, but no individual lemming has ever received bad press.
• Do not take yearly results too seriously. Instead, focus on four or five-year averages.
• It is more important to say "no" to an opportunity, than to say "yes".
• Always invest for the long term.
• Does the business have favourable long term prospects?
• It is not necessary to do extraordinary things to get extraordinary results.
• Remember that the stock alt market is manic-depressive.
• An investor should ordinarily hold a small piece of an outstanding business with the same tenacity that an owner would exhibit if he owned all of that business.

[Simcom]

Sure.  I have Asus 280x cards -

2.341 avg Mhash (running stable since last reboot(60 hours))
2.1% reject rate

I am just wondering how often you need to restart your mining rig? I have not restart from 2014 February 6th when I started to mine and I am using Ubuntu.

There are not tools like "msi afterburner" for linux and I want to check  is it deserve to not use them in sake of stability.


Also, there are many tutorials and videos how to start mining with Ubuntu (http://askubuntu.com/q/434591/95857).

I have 4 rigs, two of them are finicky and crash for unknown reasons about once a week.  The other two are rock solid for months.  I would like to run linux on my miners but it is incompatible with my motherboard (trust me I tried everything) - all the reviews on newegg talk about how it's impossible to get linux installed on this certain motherboard.  It sucks - I had to break down and buy 4 copies of win7.