[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[coins101]

Are more MN neccesary? Maybe we could reduce 1000 to 500 if the price will be a problem to buy a MN or the network needs more MN to improve the network.
Reduce miners payment could be a good option 30/10/60 should be a incentive to increase the number of MN

You have to wean off coinbase rewards because they don't last forever. What they do is allow you time to establish.

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[coins101]

What happens if we cut it in half?

The collateral gets halved
The reward gets halved
Expenses remain the same

Wouldn't expenses double ? For a given holding, you've got to run twice the number of nodes for the same return.

 No, because in essence a pro linux sys admin with semi-ninja skills can run 2 or more MN's from the same server.
 Though the point still stands for the majority at this point.

Relying on ninja skills - that's a centralisation issue. There are only so many ninja's in the world, and you need 3000 or more.

Plus, you're looking to load transactions onto servers at a mass payment scale. you wouldn't want to share servers.

[coins101]

Wasn't the 500 coin masternodes just an example of how the network could scale to even higher potential? Please, the Bitcoin block size debate has been bad enough and surely something like a change in the collateral needed for a masternode would be an issue for the voting mechanism.

Yeah, I was just talking hypothetically. We don't need to do it at all, our current network scales to 1M+ and the Evolution scales to 200M+ out of the box. When we hit 50M or so, we can start debating. We'll be doing an Evolution v1 release, then v2, then v3. These scaling changes will be included in those later updates.

The sooner you start looking at transitioning to fees, the sooner you can start thinking about scaling to visa levels.

Fees doesn't have to just mean charging the consumer. Far from it. If you want merchant adoption, you have to look at merchant fees. They pass the fee onto the consumer anyway, so make it free for consumers, but charge businesses.

You have control over creating merchant nodes. Make those nodes NFC compatible and you have a reason to charge a decent fee.

[Fatov]

Are more MN neccesary? Maybe we could reduce 1000 to 500 if the price will be a problem to buy a MN or the network needs more MN to improve the network.
Reduce miners payment could be a good option 30/10/60 should be a incentive to increase the number of MN

You have to wean off coinbase rewards because they don't last forever. What they do is allow you time to establish.

+1 that.

The last change of reward was without the consensus of the community.
The time-forum is over for me, 

[toknormal]

I always thought the basis for progressive reductions in the masternode collateral would be the dollar value (or even BTC value) of Dash.

So, if successive advances down the road revalued the currency favourably, then, say a 10% reduction in collateral could be sustained. This would then be an iterative growth pattern because you'd scale up the capacity according to what the valuation could support (or suggested that demand might be for adoption). That would allow for a reduction of coin denominated collateral (and subsequent increase in masternode population) without implying a reduction in the dollar-denominated collateral threshold.

So you'd be putting one foot forward (capacity) then the other (valuation) in successive and alternating steps as the project grew.

[coins101]

I always thought the basis for progressive reductions in the masternode collateral would be the dollar value (or even BTC value) of Dash.

So, if successive advances down the road revalued the currency favourably, then, say a 10% reduction in collateral could be sustained. This would then be an iterative growth pattern because you'd scale up the capacity according to what the valuation could support (or suggested that demand might be for adoption). That would allow for a reduction of coin denominated collateral (and subsequent increase in masternode population) without implying a reduction in the dollar-denominated collateral threshold.

So you'd be putting one foot forward (capacity) then the other (valuation) in successive and alternating steps as the project grew.

You can't build a system based on price speculation. But sometimes you have no choice.

The issue is one of SLA. If you build a network that can handle 30% of the global payments, and then growth reaches a plateau, then you risk destablising the network as masses of people cash out their nodes. 

Fees. Fees. Fees.

[noobtrader]

Are more MN neccesary? Maybe we could reduce 1000 to 500 if the price will be a problem to buy a MN or the network needs more MN to improve the network.
Reduce miners payment could be a good option 30/10/60 should be a incentive to increase the number of MN

You have to wean off coinbase rewards because they don't last forever. What they do is allow you time to establish.

+1 that.

The last change of reward was without the consensus of the community.
The time-forum is over for me,  

i think we need MN service with paid fee to increase MN income, so even if mining reward stopped MN still be profitable. i hope MN api can do that

[smoothie]

link: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins

Darkcoin
derived from Quark
type of algorithm: blake, bmw, groestl, keccak, jh, stein
PoW and PoS
The following data and time stamps were collected from the Darkcoin blockchain 37).

Block 1: 2014-01-19 Time: 3:54:41
Block 1000 : 2014-01-19 Time: 4:33:39
Block 2000: 2014-01-19 Time: 06:25:47
Block 3000: 2014-01-19 Time: 09:10:16
Block 3250: 2014-01-19 Time: 11:22:11
Looking at this data, we see that Darkcoin was mined with 500 DRK generated per block from the get go. From block 1 to at least block 3250, according to their blockchain, they were still producing 500 coins each block. The transition from 500 to 277 coins per block occurs between 3250 and 3500 but this author did not see the necessity of getting the exact moment of halving. Simple math shows that 3250 blocks multiplied by 500 coins a block is 1,625,000 Darkcoins created between the times of 3:54 and 11:22 on January 19th, 2014. As of today there are around 4,300,000 DRK in existence, making this a pretty hefty instamine. The Darkcoin website expects around 22,000,000 DRK to be created. That means in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day. It's safe to say Darkcoin has left it's investors in the dark on this one.

[toknormal]

You can't build a system based on price speculation. But sometimes you have no choice.

The issue is one of SLA. If you build a network that can handle 30% of the global payments, and then growth reaches a plateau, then you risk destablising the network as masses of people cash out their nodes. 

Indeed. But the principle of a supporting a currency reserve market needs to be sustained in a way that the market will support.

An investor who puts their money into the Dash reserve market will simply work off an ROI equation that looks like this (in principle):

Gain=[Capital sum invested x Interest] - Number of masternodes required to deploy the full capital value.

What this means is that by lowering the collateral, you increase the cost of deploying a given amount of coins in the reserve market and securing a return on them. Right now I only need to deploy 1 masternode to get a return on 1000 Dash. WIth a 500 collateral I need to deploy 2. That's a PITA for an investor so it becomes less attractive. But if the dollar value doubles then it becomes more attractive again.

[toknormal]

LoL.

I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using when XMR hits 0.0001. We'll need a whole page to accommodate just one of his posts.

[tungfa]

Dash mentioned on The Daily Decrypt

(1:20 min)

https://youtu.be/rwWTWLX2K6k?t=1m8s

 

Please share:
https://twitter.com/AnonUpdatesNews/status/652283226833063936

[Lebubar]

You are boring Trolleros, please change the disk. Or (if possible) check your thread if anything new there..O nothing... Let's check coinmarketcap. O.o 38 cents 16th.. Well continue post here sorry.

[MasterMined710]

For anyone interested in AdamWhite's real motivation for scam-trolling the Dash thread every day for the last 8 months, you can check his deleted posts from the Monero Speculation thread:

"im in this coin for the long haul. I've exchanged all my alts for XMR."

https://bitcointa.lk/threads/ann-mro-monero-a-coin-with-strong-privacy-based-on-cryptonote-technology.304375/page-509#post-7491079

Yup, it's a Monero Troll.

(A big one too, something like ~500 "Scam!" accusations posts on his competitor, i.e. Dash, threads, that's commitment.)

EDIT: If you look, he's deleted all posts relating to his Monero investments on BCT.  Guess he didn't know they are saved out there on the internets....

Great find.
and don't forget....

Who is Adam Smith White and why is he so angry all the time?
Months ago he lost several thousand dollars when Darkcoin/DASH bought the name rights to dashcoin. He had all his eggs in one basket and went all in.

Remember this...

A little lunchtime tail.









[

[MasterMined710]

'Monero Guy'

This is their legacy.
I found the "Scumbag Steve"-hat to be a perfect match

Fitting

[MasterMined710]

The cool thing is Evan never gets his feathers ruffled (well, unless he's excited about code, LOL) and is always nice and polite.

Agreed. In that vein, it might be useful to address the five latest troll-claims prominently in the OP and patiently point newbies there every time the trolls attack.
There is some reason the trolls keep pounding away here even though most of us have them on Ignore. People suggest they are targeting newbies, and that certainly might be the case although it seems that most of the newbie post action here is from troll puppet hit and run accounts. Maybe the real newbies lurk and read for a long time before wading in, in which case the trolls might actually have an audience to justify their amazing time investment.

A partly-baked draft of the kind of "permanent" rebuttal I mean - I'm sure the team can do it better:

1. See Evan's approach of pointing out what happened re the instamine (over and over and over) - it is what it is, and newbies can accept it or walk away - there is no coercion to use the coin (unlike fiat).

2. The MNs give an incentive to hold more - that is very different from "an unfair advantage to large holders". Anyone at all can join the MN (partial) owner club, whether or not they have 1000 or more coins. The concept is analogous to the now-archaic practice of banks paying interest for the use of your money - the network pays MN owners for their investment. Demonizing this practice is quite a stretch!

3. The claim that MNs are not decentralized is a semantic trick, and the implied "be afraid, be very afraid" element is a psychological trick. Consider - the American acronym-agencies allegedly spy on anything and everything. There is no particular reason to think they pay more attention to Amazon AWS than to anything else. That said, increased diversity is of course wise. As for semantic trickery, there is but one planet Earth (centralized), one Internet (centralized), one group of Dash users (centralized), blah blah. Centralization is in the eye of the beholder, but Dash grows more decentralized every day.

4. This is another "be afraid" ploy, but it is worth thinking about. The claim is that if you hold a MN (or a portion of one?) you might be harassed by future AML laws in some jurisdiction or other. True - you might - there is no way to know what witch-hunts may appear in the future. Now what - what follows from that? It is dangerous to get out of bed in the morning. It is also dangerous to remain in bed. In any case, the troll-claim here (mixing is bad) is contradictory to troll-claim 5 (not mixing is bad).

5. The "mixing is slow" claim is a useful improvement tip. It is semantically loaded though - "slow" compared to what? Regardless, it is used to assert the consequent that mixing is not the default (true, I think) and that therefore fungibility is an issue (true, I think). I seem to remember seeing suggestions for this issue such as "keep mixing running in background", but I haven't paid close enough attention to the details. I'm sure the team is working on it though.
 

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Instamine and other complaints:

1. The "Instamine": Please see "The Birth of Darkcoin"(now Dash), and this interview on dashdot for more information and points of view people have about the "instamine".  The first 24 hours of what was then called Xcoin had mistakes caused by an excited developer who wanted to get going, who was working a full time job and getting little sleep. Once the dust settled, everyone on board the project voted to continue despite the error.

2. Masternode owners have "unfair advantage":  The MNs are rewarded for holding coins and running a node that services the network.  Anyone with 1000 coins can run a Masternode and take part in the proceeds.  Anyone who doesn't have the full amount of investment needed can join one of many jointly owned Masternodes via a service or trusted group of friends.  Either way, this system benefits all Dash users as well as investors in that it encourages the holding of coins (reduces volatility), secures the network and offers invaluable services.

3. "Masternodes are centralized":  Masternodes are owned and run by hundreds of people and the ownership of Masternodes and Masternode network is growing daily, as can be seen by people announcing their first, second, third, etc... Masternode in the forums as well as the Masternode count climbing on the network.  Although Masternode owners are entitled to their privacy, we have been able to tell where these people are using service providers.  And although at first, many choose to use a familiar and established companies, namely Amazon, the first 6 months or so, the extravagant cost of that particular company and others like it as well as word of mouth have diversified the locations of Masternodes and their service providers; not just in the USA, but all over the world.  Currently, Dash has 60% the number of full, dedicated nodes that Bitcoin has with only about 1% of it's market cap.  In comparison, Dash is far more secure.

4. "Mixing makes you look like a criminal":  This is another "be afraid" ploy, but it is worth thinking about. The claim is that if you hold a MN (or a portion of one?) you might be harassed by future AML laws in some jurisdiction or other. True - you might - there is no way to know what witch-hunts may appear in the future. Now what - what follows from that? It is dangerous to get out of bed in the morning. It is also dangerous to remain in bed. In any case, the claim here (mixing is bad) is contradictory to claim 5 (not mixing is bad).
[/list]

Thanks for posting. I almost missed it with all the trolls posting instamine spam.

[hogwild]

...
In this video Evan  explains decentralized oracles, is a must watch to understand subquorums.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGh43BQrxK0

Quick and possibly daft question on the method for selecting the 10 masternodes. The 10 nodes to handle a transaction are selected by the 10 nearest transaction IDs for the 1000 Dash transaction needed to set up the masternode (I think). Is that vulnerable to the malleability issues Bitcoin is seeing at the mo? ie. could transaction IDs be modified to direct to a small number of malicious masternodes?

Unless I'm mistaken, it's based off the block hash, not the transaction IDs.

All security is inherited from the mining network, which basically is deterministically setting up the quorum system, in a way that is provable. For example when you use DAPI, it will do something like create a transaction from Xaddr1 to Xaddr2 for 10 DASH. You then get back your command, a result status and all of the signatures from the quorum participants. You as the end user will know what quorum is activated for that node already, so you can tell if they're lying.

In terms of scalability, if we have 3300 masternodes and a quorum size of 10, that means we can handle 330 requests at once. If the average time per request is about 100 ms, that means we can do 3300 requests per second. The estimate is based on the fact that the network is also doing maintenance at all times (propagating blocks, shard updates, syncing clients, etc), so I'm guessing ~50% of a fully utilized network will go to other activities. Therefore we end up with 1650 requests per second.

Also we're going to aim for your average every day user, so we're talking just a few requests per month. So how many users can we support if they use 15 requests per month? 86400*1650*30/15 = 285,120,000. Ok, 285 million, that's pretty good.

What about reducing the collateral to 500 DASH? Now we have 6600 masternodes and can handle 570 million users. Isn't the masternode count going up anyway? Yep. That number should hit about 700M about when we launch. This is why it says 500-1500 tx per second, I guess that should say "requests per second" because it's not really accurate. Also the 700M should be a range also, that's the high end, the low end is 285M for current Dash requirements.

I've done a lot of guesswork to figure out these numbers, we'll see how close I am when we start seeing some serious adoption. Either way the system is built to scale with adoption in a way nothing else can, it should be pretty cool. I figure if we start to see a good deal of adoption and usage, we'll always either ask for more storage, processing power or reduce the collateral to split the network before it becomes an issue . They'll be good problems to have and we'll have lots of solutions available.

It would be interesting to see the performance impact of running a higher transaction load.  I'm all new to this so I might have it wrong (starting both nodes, btc, Dash, in August).  I also run a bitcoin node and it is about 2x more network bandwidth (86 GiB for bitcoin for August vs 46 GiB dash), 15x more network connections (300+ for bitcoin vs 20 for Dash) and 4X more disk space (48 GB for bitcoin vs 14 GB for dash).  It looks like when problems happen on the bitcoin network (different attacks) my CPU and memory shoot way up but otherwise it seems similar to Dash.  While the rawmempoolinfo seems to be much higher on bitcoin (1000s vs singles in dash) I don't yet have a good enough understanding how that factors in to performance or if it matters. 

If Dash started to get to the same usage as bitcoin I would guess that specs for many of the MNs would need to increase (not sure if Raspberry Pi which some MN are running could handle it).  Would a VPS charge more?  Increased transactions would probably lead to less decentralization as only those who could afford the costs could pay for it (that is if they are holding the MN remuneration for speculation).  Similar to the problem that is seen in the decline of the current bitcoin nodes, though of course there isn't any compensation for running one. 

[eB101]

So many great things going on here, and being worked on. Could Dash be a contender of the fastest or most scalable crypto? (measured in possible TPS)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1203228.0
It would be cool to hear the Dash experts there.

[iCEBREAKER]

I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using

smoothie's font size isn't your problem.

This is your problem:

in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day.

It's safe to say Darkcoin has left its investors in the dark on this one.

#r3kt

[Probleminfected]

I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using

smoothie's font size isn't your problem.

This is your problem:

in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day.

It's safe to say Darkcoin has left its investors in the dark on this one.

#r3kt

Some of us nobodies were there, you jealous?

[valentino008]

I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using

smoothie's font size isn't your problem.

This is your problem:

in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day.

It's safe to say Darkcoin has left its investors in the dark on this one.

#r3kt

The explanation 1 more time: http://dashdot.io/alpha/?page_id=118