[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Solarminer]

New masternode incidents feature

We just released the new masternode incidents feature. It is a history of the critical downtimes of your masternodes including the date and duration. This is very helpful in a variety of situations including quality assurance of external masternode hosting services.

Dashwhale budget proposal

We just submitted the proposal to cover basic Dashwhale operations. We want to keep this site and it's features open for everybody, avoiding a regular subscription model. You'll find detailed information and discussion on the proposal page:

https://www.dashwhale.org/p/dashwhale-basic

I am happy to take further questions.

Best,
Rango

Manual voting: mnbudget vote-many 4f8b12279629b8126ba7b1a378cd3ef6e3bb88d7fb04cb6db424edf4c95f6780 yes / no

A lot of innovation with this site, highly recommend it.  Saved me a few dash when my server went down and got a notification before my nodes dropped off.  Rango is really quick to respond to questions or support.  It has a lot of features that make voting and monitoring nodes really easy.  Plus it has comments for proposals.

We can vote to determine if this gets funded or not which is exactly what this budget system is intended to be used for.

I would also suggest that the fee to create proposals go to the website(like dashwhale) that submits the proposal.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

I will add my two cents on the DashWhale proposal. I think that it is a service that is optional, so the people who choose to use that site and enjoy it's benefits should pay for that experience.

Asking for DGBB money just seems wrong when a majority of Dash community members are not using it. Proposals should be used to directly benefit Dash. There is not a lot of money right now, and we need to get the most bang for our buck out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love DashWhale, but it is just one website, not THE website, and as such should generate it's own funding.

[Lukas_Jackson]

...
And that's with the network as it is today, it can scale much higher. Visa does about 2000 transactions a second and can handle a claimed maximum of about 20000, doesn't match with my experiences waiting in ques during Christmas shopping but it looks like those kind of figures are well within reach.

I'm wondering what the details are.

Assuming every tx has a size of 5kb

1000 * 5kb = 5MB

How can it be achieved without increasing the blocksize?
Eager to test it.

[cryptonewb]

Hi

I'm new here, this is my first post!

I was interested in cryptocurrencies, but when I looked into it back in 2012, I came across some article that explained it on a semi-technical level.
I realized that bitcoin was too transparent. I didn't want others to see my transactions, so I dismissed it. I saw in 2013 on the news that if I got in, I could have made a lot of money. But I figured I was a bit late to the party so I still didn't invest.

When I met an old friend a few weeks ago, he told me he did buy BTC in 2012. Then I told him about my concerns (the fact that BTC isn't private). Then he told me maybe I would like DASH. So I checked the dash technology and I liked what I saw. Darksend can make my transactions private!
There was more: InstantX has very fast transactions, compared to bitcoin.

I now bought 20 DASH. I want to start small, but maybe I'll buy a full masternode in the future. I was just checking this thread and saw something about evolution in another topic:

http://s017.radikal.ru/i427/1510/fd/b6b84adb0d32.jpg

May I ask if there is already more information about this?

I specifically want to know when will it go live?
Also, I wonder how you can have so much transactions per second? (the slide shows 500-1500) I read that bitcoin is limited to 7 transactions per second.
My last question for now is that I don't really understand how InstantX works. I mean... with bitcoin you have your transactions included in a block. I liked that part of the bitcoin technology when I checked it in 2012. Once a ransaction is included, it is considered "safe". How does InstantX work?

Anyway, I hope to get in early now, because I feel that DASH could maybe become big, certainly if "Evolution" becomes the new reality.

[alex-ru]

I will add my two cents on the DashWhale proposal. I think that it is a service that is optional, so the people who choose to use that site and enjoy it's benefits should pay for that experience.

Asking for DGBB money just seems wrong when a majority of Dash community members are not using it. Proposals should be used to directly benefit Dash. There is not a lot of money right now, and we need to get the most bang for our buck out of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love DashWhale, but it is just one website, not THE website, and as such should generate it's own funding.

I Agree. Also:

1. Supporting only this one site violates the principles of competition and helps to centralize such services in one hand...
2. Violates basic principle of Voting "Masternodes have to vote for benefit for the whole system, not for benefits only for Masternodes operators".

But I like site Dashwale - hope it can offer good commercial services for Masternode OPs and earn fees with it.

[LiteMine]

It mustn't be too hard to include voting in the GUI client, or even to have a client only for masternode owners. Dashwhale looks great and I'm sure it is very convenient for those that use it, but I think for something as important as decentralised governance of an anonymous cryptocurrency, a trustless solution would be ideal.

Yes, but the work has already been done. Dashwhale pushes out notifications, encrypts your genkey for voting safety, has a new incident log for each user, and keeps churning out the innovation.

Well, I've heard Visa are already processing millions of transactions a day... why should we bother continuing with this project..?

Just because a centralized MN services solution has been created doesn't mean that we shouldn't push towards integrating the features of dashwhale into the core client at protocol level..

Walter

Sure, but the devs are busy (obviously) and in the meantime this is an available tool to the less-than-ultra-tech-savvy club of MN owners, which apparently includes toknormal and myself. If you think MN's should only be run by geeks, then not a lot of real investment is going to happen here.

Services like Dashwhale and Node40 demystify and simplify the process of MN ownership/voting and throwing out some Visa quote like I'm an idiot doesn't really move the conversation forward.

I'm only saying: "Give them a chance, they're an excellent service to help bring in new MN owners and to help existing owners to have a voice in the voting process".

EDIT: If Dashwhale is so centralized, then what is lost/exposed by their site getting hacked or going down? Nothing. No information stored on MN owners, no funds to lose, etc. So what is so centralized about it and how does that risk offset the benefits I just described? I'm always learning and willing to hear a real argument.

[qwizzie]

Hi

I'm new here, this is my first post!

I was interested in cryptocurrencies, but when I looked into it back in 2012, I came across some article that explained it on a semi-technical level.
I realized that bitcoin was too transparent. I didn't want others to see my transactions, so I dismissed it. I saw in 2013 on the news that if I got in, I could have made a lot of money. But I figured I was a bit late to the party so I still didn't invest.

When I met an old friend a few weeks ago, he told me he did buy BTC in 2012. Then I told him about my concerns (the fact that BTC isn't private). Then he told me maybe I would like DASH. So I checked the dash technology and I liked what I saw. Darksend can make my transactions private!
There was more: InstantX has very fast transactions, compared to bitcoin.

I now bought 20 DASH. I want to start small, but maybe I'll buy a full masternode in the future. I was just checking this thread and saw something about evolution in another topic:

(credits oaxaca / tungfa)

May I ask if there is already more information about this?

I specifically want to know when will it go live?
Also, I wonder how you can have so much transactions per second? (the slide shows 500-1500) I read that bitcoin is limited to 7 transactions per second.
My last question for now is that I don't really understand how InstantX works. I mean... with bitcoin you have your transactions included in a block. I liked that part of the bitcoin technology when I checked it in 2012. Once a ransaction is included, it is considered "safe". How does InstantX work?

Anyway, I hope to get in early now, because I feel that DASH could maybe become big, certainly if "Evolution" becomes the new reality.

Hi cryptonewb, welcome to our forum.

There is no ETA known yet and the details are also unknown.

The latest was from Evan and can be read here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg12638189#msg12638189  

I either read or heard somewhere that v13 (codename Evolution) is planned to be released in 3 versions (v1, v2, v3) and that only the last version will have the full scalability implemented.
Evan has mentioned he will bring out video's to prepare us for Evolution (i remember hearing him say that 10 video's will come out to deal with it all in detail)

Also what stan.distortion already mentioned in the previous page, its a good idea to watch the introduction video's on page 1
 
edit : i replaced your picture with a higher resolution, i hope you don't mind...
 

[Lukas_Jackson]

...
And that's with the network as it is today, it can scale much higher. Visa does about 2000 transactions a second and can handle a claimed maximum of about 20000, doesn't match with my experiences waiting in ques during Christmas shopping but it looks like those kind of figures are well within reach.

I'm wondering what the details are.

Assuming every tx has a size of 5kb

1000 * 5kb = 5MB

How can it be achieved without increasing the blocksize?
Eager to test it.

1 mo, Evan posted with some rough scalability examples but it'll take a while to find, it's a few pages back. We've not really heard many details and we're still waiting for the vid from the presentation but as far as I know its all down to quorum technology Again, not sure but I think InstantX is a component of the same and darksend combines with it, 10 masternodes are selected to lock the transaction and they can handle it in about 0.1 seconds, multiply that by the number of masternodes in the network/10 and that's a hell of a lot of transactions.

EDIT:

...
In terms of scalability, if we have 3300 masternodes and a quorum size of 10, that means we can handle 330 requests at once. If the average time per request is about 100 ms, that means we can do 3300 requests per second. The estimate is based on the fact that the network is also doing maintenance at all times (propagating blocks, shard updates, syncing clients, etc), so I'm guessing ~50% of a fully utilized network will go to other activities. Therefore we end up with 1650 requests per second.

I read that btw  . And I remember when Evan talked about quorums few weeks ago at dashtalk.
What is interesting that those tx have to be in a block later, so...I'm eager to test it 

[busterzzz]

If you host a Masternode on vultr and your server is located in Los Angeles

Kris Slevens
2015-10-10 19:44:36

Sorry for any inconvenience.

We're investigating a network issue upstream out of our control in Los Angeles and making adjustments to get things back online as soon as possible, thanks for your patience.

Thanks,
Kris
Vultr.com

[smoothie]

Someone has the right idea (DrDeepWeb):

https://dashtalk.org/threads/dash-team-at-bitcoin-wednesday-amsterdam-presentation.6287/page-11#post-70235

fible1 said: ↑


Pablo.
I know why the community is worried about this question being answered. A lot of us have a lot invested in this thing. We all have a lot to loose. Im just trying to get you all to think about this in a different way. I dont want to push evan under a bus but i dont think the current approach of staying silent will help us at all? We need to speak about this as a community like were doing and figure out a way to get past this thing. Sweeping in under the rug is not the answer. there is a better way !

[Walter_S]

It mustn't be too hard to include voting in the GUI client, or even to have a client only for masternode owners. Dashwhale looks great and I'm sure it is very convenient for those that use it, but I think for something as important as decentralised governance of an anonymous cryptocurrency, a trustless solution would be ideal.

Yes, but the work has already been done. Dashwhale pushes out notifications, encrypts your genkey for voting safety, has a new incident log for each user, and keeps churning out the innovation.

Well, I've heard Visa are already processing millions of transactions a day... why should we bother continuing with this project..?

Just because a centralized MN services solution has been created doesn't mean that we shouldn't push towards integrating the features of dashwhale into the core client at protocol level..

Walter

Sure, but the devs are busy (obviously) and in the meantime this is an available tool to the less-than-ultra-tech-savvy club of MN owners, which apparently includes toknormal and myself. If you think MN's should only be run by geeks, then not a lot of real investment is going to happen here.

Services like Dashwhale and Node40 demystify and simplify the process of MN ownership/voting and throwing out some Visa quote like I'm an idiot doesn't really move the conversation forward.

I'm only saying: "Give them a chance, they're an excellent service to help bring in new MN owners and to help existing owners to have a voice in the voting process".

I politely disagree. I don't suggest for one minute that you're an idiot.. Please don't think that my intention is to insult your intelligence   My point is that we shouldn't give up on creating a number of decentralized services within the Dash ecosystem just because we already have 'excellent' centralized services that are available. Dashwhale is great (I'm a happy member), however, any service like this ultimately goes against what we're trying to achieve...

I suppose it's a complex argument but what happens when dashwhale becomes 'the google' for masternode services? It becomes indispensable to us MN owners... Do we - as masternode owners - continue to cede to potential demands in the future for more blockchain funds to ensure these 'vital' services continue to be run? regardless of the marginal cost of producing the service the 'owner' of dashwhale could legitimately demand dash funding in excess of their needs in order to profit - is this acceptable? My post is not to judge either way... It is merely to discuss the complexities of the subject.

Maybe decentralization only matters at the 'top tier' as Evan would say...? the rest of the sub-ecosystem can be as centralized as many real world services with a true market dynamic in place with profit the primary motive?

Discuss.

Walter

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

It mustn't be too hard to include voting in the GUI client, or even to have a client only for masternode owners. Dashwhale looks great and I'm sure it is very convenient for those that use it, but I think for something as important as decentralised governance of an anonymous cryptocurrency, a trustless solution would be ideal.

Yes, but the work has already been done. Dashwhale pushes out notifications, encrypts your genkey for voting safety, has a new incident log for each user, and keeps churning out the innovation.

Well, I've heard Visa are already processing millions of transactions a day... why should we bother continuing with this project..?

Just because a centralized MN services solution has been created doesn't mean that we shouldn't push towards integrating the features of dashwhale into the core client at protocol level..

Walter

Sure, but the devs are busy (obviously) and in the meantime this is an available tool to the less-than-ultra-tech-savvy club of MN owners, which apparently includes toknormal and myself. If you think MN's should only be run by geeks, then not a lot of real investment is going to happen here.

Services like Dashwhale and Node40 demystify and simplify the process of MN ownership/voting and throwing out some Visa quote like I'm an idiot doesn't really move the conversation forward.

I'm only saying: "Give them a chance, they're an excellent service to help bring in new MN owners and to help existing owners to have a voice in the voting process".

I politely disagree. I don't suggest for one minute that you're an idiot.. Please don't think that my intention is to insult your intelligence   My point is that we shouldn't give up on creating a number of decentralized services within the Dash ecosystem just because we already have 'excellent' centralized services that are available. Dashwhale is great (I'm a happy member), however, any service like this ultimately goes against what we're trying to achieve...

I suppose it's a complex argument but what happens when dashwhale becomes 'the google' for masternode services? It becomes indispensable to us MN owners... Do we - as masternode owners - continue to cede to potential demands in the future for more blockchain funds to ensure these 'vital' services continue to be run? regardless of the marginal cost of producing the service the 'owner' of dashwhale could legitimately demand dash funding in excess of their needs in order to profit - is this acceptable? My post is not to judge either way... It is merely to discuss the complexities of the subject.

Maybe decentralization only matters at the 'top tier' as Evan would say...? the rest of the sub-ecosystem can be as centralized as many real world services with a true market dynamic in place with profit the primary motive?

Discuss.

Walter

Centralized services will always be created. Some will be very useful and valuable. However, the ultimate goal for Dash as a currency should be decentralize, decentralize, decentralize to avoid the single points of failure. This is the whole point of crypto. Development should always continue on the core protocol no matter how convenient centralized services seem.

And decentralized development doesn't have to mean complicated. Masternode maintenance and duties can be made to be easier as Dash refines.

[cryptonewb]

Hi. It's fairly advanced from Bitcoin and developing fast, some good vids covering most aspects though:
https://www.dashpay.io/dash-video-series/

EDIT: Vid 5 covers Darksend and InstantX.

Evolutions not out yet and details are sketchy but the developers have been rock solid on living up to claims so far. It would take a bit of explaining and tbh the vids do a far better job than I can, once you've got your head around them the post of Evans I quoted in the post above yours should make a lot more sense.

I watched the vids. I'm still not sure how InstantX manages to be secure though...
I kinda understand how it works, but not sure how the security works.

This is how I think bitcoin works:
the big problem in cryptocurrencies is that there is lag on a network. If there wasn't lag, we could just all send transactions. Everybody would see the first transactions and an attempt at double spend would be automatically ignored.
But there is lag (latency) on a network, so we need some kind of synchronization. Therefore, bitcoin groups transactions in "blocks". These blocks are propagated in the network. Once a block is mined, the transaction has one confirmation. However, it's still possible someone mines on an older version of the chain, so for bigger transactions, it's better to wait for more (2, 3, ...) confirmations to be sure it's included in the longest chain.
(correct me if I'm wrong)

This is how I think DASH works:
There are decentralized oracles that are deterministically chosen and vote on "locking" a transaction. When the oracles decide that a transaction is locked, miners can't mine a double spend because all nodes (masternodes or all nodes?) reject transactions that are in conflict with the locked transaction. If a block is mined with a conflicting transaction, that block is rejected by the nodes and other miners (but how can you force miners to reject a block? ).
Also, I'm not clear on what happens with the double spend transaction if that one also get locked by other masternodes that ignore the first transaction. After all, your masternode get a fee when you vote for a transaction (I think?), so you have an incentive to vote for the double spent transaction. is it possible that there is a competing locked transaction?

So as you can see, I still have some questions about the security of InstantX. i marked them so it's easier to address them.

Btw, this thread's been getting hammered by trolls for a while, usually folks post a few links with responses to the repetitive FUD but I'd suggest checking the first 20 or so pages of this thread and their post history if you come across them and have any doubts.

I don't know about them. I just arrived... I guess any disruptive tech puts some other people at a loss, making them angry
I guess I'll notice them and put them on ignore

[oaxaca]

...I wonder how you can have so much transactions per second? (the slide shows 500-1500) I read that bitcoin is limited to 7 transactions per second...

My thinking goes this far.  Instant Transactions will have the input funds locked by a set of 10 masternodes chosen deterministically.  There are 3,500 masternodes.  Therefore 350 (3500/10) Instant Transactions (minus overhead) can be locked simultaneously.  If this process can happen a couple of times every second, then 500-1500 is the answer.

If there are any devs watching that want to correct me, please do. 

[Lukas_Jackson]

...I wonder how you can have so much transactions per second? (the slide shows 500-1500) I read that bitcoin is limited to 7 transactions per second...

My thinking goes this far.  Instant Transactions will have the input funds locked by a set of 10 masternodes chosen deterministically.  There are 3,500 masternodes.  Therefore 350 (3500/10) Instant Transactions (minus overhead) can be locked simultaneously.  If this process can happen a couple of times every second, then 500-1500 is the answer.

This is true but they have to be in a block later. This part is interesting.

[cryptonewb]

Hi cryptonewb, welcome to our forum.

There is no ETA known yet and the details are also unknown.

That's a pitty, I was looking forward to it.
I've read that there was a presentation in amsterdam. I hope that Evan released some information there on how it will be implemented.
It would be good to at least know it's possible and know the way forward. I hope he reveals his plans a bit...
After all, we are a decentralized currency, no? So if someone wants to help developing, it would be a good idea for Evan to release his plans so others can start working on it, even as volunteers! As far as I know, bitcoin has a lot of volonteers working on the code, not many are paid.

The latest was from Evan and can be read here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg12638189#msg12638189  

I either read or heard somewhere that v13 (codename Evolution) is planned to be released in 3 versions (v1, v2, v3) and that only the last version will have the full scalability implemented.
Evan has mentioned he will bring out video's to prepare us for Evolution (i remember hearing him say that 10 video's will come out to deal with it all in detail)

thanks, interesting!
so eventually the number of DASH needed for a masternode will be lowered. Wouldn't that make the system less secure, as the security relies on people acting honestly because they have a stake in dash? Again, i'm back to security... I still didn't figure that out, lol... #confused.

Also what stan.distortion already mentioned in the previous page, its a good idea to watch the introduction video's on page 1
 
edit : i replaced your picture with a higher resolution, i hope you don't mind...

I watched them and thx for the better picture!

[cryptonewb]

...
And that's with the network as it is today, it can scale much higher. Visa does about 2000 transactions a second and can handle a claimed maximum of about 20000, doesn't match with my experiences waiting in ques during Christmas shopping but it looks like those kind of figures are well within reach.

I'm wondering what the details are.

Assuming every tx has a size of 5kb

1000 * 5kb = 5MB

How can it be achieved without increasing the blocksize?
Eager to test it.

I have the same question!
I guess we need to wait for the vid from Amsterdam

[oaxaca]

...
And that's with the network as it is today, it can scale much higher. Visa does about 2000 transactions a second and can handle a claimed maximum of about 20000, doesn't match with my experiences waiting in ques during Christmas shopping but it looks like those kind of figures are well within reach.

I'm wondering what the details are.

Assuming every tx has a size of 5kb

1000 * 5kb = 5MB

How can it be achieved without increasing the blocksize?
Eager to test it.

I have the same question!
I guess we need to wait for the vid from Amsterdam

Pruning?

Initial funds are A.  A -> B, B -> C, C -> D, D -> E.

Final tx shows only A -> E.

Since B, C, and D are irrelevant because, you know, anonymity? 

[cryptonewb]

Someone has the right idea (DrDeepWeb):

https://dashtalk.org/threads/dash-team-at-bitcoin-wednesday-amsterdam-presentation.6287/page-11#post-70235

fible1 said: ↑


Pablo.
I know why the community is worried about this question being answered. A lot of us have a lot invested in this thing. We all have a lot to loose. Im just trying to get you all to think about this in a different way. I dont want to push evan under a bus but i dont think the current approach of staying silent will help us at all? We need to speak about this as a community like were doing and figure out a way to get past this thing. Sweeping in under the rug is not the answer. there is a better way !

the sky is falling !

What is this about? I didn't read the whole topic on dashtalk yet...
Is that guy a troll?

[Lukas_Jackson]

Someone has the right idea (DrDeepWeb):

https://dashtalk.org/threads/dash-team-at-bitcoin-wednesday-amsterdam-presentation.6287/page-11#post-70235
...

What is this about? I didn't read the whole topic on dashtalk yet...
Is that guy a troll?

I think that DrDeepWeb is a smoothie's friend. Look how quick he found post which suits him.

Of course do your research and ask questions but be sure no one is trying to hide, sweep anything under the rug.
Ugly DrDeepWeb's insinuations. This is getting ridiculous