[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[xkcdd]

Ever wondered how large companies get away without paying any tax?  Tokenormal is your hint, his financial alchemy is able to turn a liability into to an asset    Hey Tok, when it comes to tax, you’re hired, you can do my taxes for me and turn the world upside down.  Meanwhile miners sell 768 DASH a day - fact.  The selling pays electricity costs - fact, rent, labour and equipment expenses and some tax presumably. Where's that money come from?  At $330 a DASH, that's $253,440 of buying we need to find each and every day to pay our miners - fact.  We pay this because this is a POW coin and still gains its primary security from mining - we see value in that.

The mnode operators need not sell as much because their expenses are less, they have the option of hodling or compounding their rewards, miners do not.

If I had $1,000,000 USD to invest in DASH what would be most beneficial to the coin?    Buy mining gear and add hashrate?  Or, by 3 nodes and mint coins?  You are the holders, think it over.  I would prefer it if someone bought the coin, rather than buy a miner for which will get no share in the profits.

The equations are so obvious and ludicrously simple, I am suprised Tok is still given the oxygen he needs to breathe, and I consider his Tom fuddery boardline trolling these days, as though the rotten soul of iCEBreaker infested him. 

I pray Tok, you recover from this and one day learn to forgive DASH for hurting you (Can you show us on dolly where he hurt you?)    We long for the day when we welcome you back to the community recovered and happy, back to your former self and your friend AFBitcorns.

[toknormal]

The mnode operators need not sell as much because their expenses are less, they have the option of hodling or compounding their rewards, miners do not.

So you're trying to assert a theory whereby giving the coin away at zero difficulty makes for a better store of value than the original satoshi model where buyers have to compete for it ? Because then the first recipients "don't have costs and don't have to sell to cover those costs"  

I knew that crypto-tribalism and "love of one's holdings" could lead to some psychotic perspectives but I've seen it all now.

Let us examine what you're saying here in a little more detail:

"SELLERS" vs "NET SELLERS"

First, we are trying to get this coin out there. So the fact that it changes hands is a good thing, not a bad thing. We want circulation and blockchain volume. Who buys and who sells is irrelevant, what matters is the NET capital flowing into the ecosystem and whether the Dash economy benefits from those transactions or some other economy does. So with that in mind lets look at the COMPLETE capital flow for each of the recipients in the split reward system, not just one half of the transaction as you do and as Ryan did in his faulty analysis that promoted more masternode reward at the expense of mining reward:

MINERS:

 • They BUY the coin in the primary market
 • They SELL the coin in the secondary market which draws capital FROM that market
 • The coin ends up in the hands of a SECONDARY BUYER
 • The capital received from that secondary buyer ends up in the BLOCKCHAIN as increased difficulty

Ergo: miners are not net sellers. They are brokers who's job is to transfer capital from a market BUYER into the blockchain. This is the standard Satoshi model. It's why bitcoin now has a marketcap exceeding $1 Trillion. It's why Litceoin, Ethereum, Doge, XMR all have marketcaps far in excess of Dash despite being essentially service-free zones.

MASTERNODES

 • They receive the coin at zero cost
 • There is no realised capital transfer at that point
 • Any non-zero sales that masternodes make draws capital that does NOT find its way into the blockchain
 • So in bookkeeping terms the blockchain incurred a capital LOSS since a coin was issued and no primary market bid was created to counterbalance the secondary market sale (which is the case with mining)

Ergo: masternodes are net sellers

Conclusion: to sustain and grow marketcap in our split reward system, the masternode reward needs to be handled extremely conservatively. Perhaps 20% of the mining reward IMO. If we take it past that "sweet spot" we just tank the marketcap relative to fully mined which is what's been happening the past 3 years.

Is there ANY fully mined coin that we've exceeded in marketcap growth in the last 3 years ? There may be but I'm not aware of any. The reverse has been the case. That should worry you and every other Dash investor because the whole BASIS of our current store-of-value offering appears to be that we don't value mining. It's not working in competitive terms and shows no signs of doing so anytime soon.

[xkcdd]

MINERS:

 • They BUY the coin in the primary market

This is really silly, Tok, the act of mining is not buying the coins, this is not primary market, the miners are incurring a cost which is wilfully passed onto the network in whole.  You are trying to isolate elements of DASH without looking at the whole, for example I would argue the reason DASH underperformed in this bull market is because there are many more opportunities to put your money to work so to speak in the Defi space and CeFi like Celcius where you can earn a good return on your coins.  DASH masternodes simply got too crowded and the Mnode opers decided to optimise for ROI which implies selling.

Ryan has the same issue as you do and looks at DASH as a monolith and not part of an ecosystem, if he had, he would have recognised that the realloc hardfork SPORK 21 did not go far enough and he needed to pull the needle 80/20 in favour of the mnode opers to attract premium investment into the coin.

We've been over this time and time again, Tok, and though you and I are an incapable of budging from our positions on this topic, I look to other readers of this esteemed thread and see that in general support lies with those that oppose your view, so I tend to think that is probably the right way of looking at it.

[JollyGood]

I advised him on at least two occasions to fork Dash so he can implement his ideas but he refuses. What else can be done apart from that?

MINERS:

 • They BUY the coin in the primary market

This is really silly, Tok, the act of mining is not buying the coins, this is not primary market, the miners are incurring a cost which is wilfully passed onto the network in whole.  You are trying to isolate elements of DASH without looking at the whole, for example I would argue the reason DASH underperformed in this bull market is because there are many more opportunities to put your money to work so to speak in the Defi space and CeFi like Celcius where you can earn a good return on your coins.  DASH masternodes simply got too crowded and the Mnode opers decided to optimise for ROI which implies selling.

Ryan has the same issue as you do and looks at DASH as a monolith and not part of an ecosystem, if he had, he would have recognised that the realloc hardfork SPORK 21 did not go far enough and he needed to pull the needle 80/20 in favour of the mnode opers to attract premium investment into the coin.

We've been over this time and time again, Tok, and though you and I are an incapable of budging from our positions on this topic, I look to other readers of this esteemed thread and see that in general support lies with those that oppose your view, so I tend to think that is probably the right way of looking at it.

[toknormal]

This is really silly, Tok, the act of mining is not buying the coins

  Well I sure hope no potential Dash speculators are listening to this convo if this reflects the prevailing view that informs our monetary priorities.

Last I checked there were only 2 ways to acquire a mined cryptocurrency:

 • mine it
 • purchase it from someone who already did

Either way you incur a cost in order to make the acquisition - otherwise termed "buying" in economic terms. Not only that, the act of "buying" in the primary market (i.e. straight from the emission supply) works in exactly the same way commercially as it does on an exchange: pushes up the price.

The medium of exchange is different. The economic act is the same and the economic analysis is the same. If there is a lot of competition for the mined supply it pushes up the price of that supply. You therefore cannot exclude that transaction and its associated cost from the capital flow equation with respect to miners. (Unless you're trying to b.s. your audience)

It is the cost of acquisition.

============================
Additional thought.

Ok, maybe I'm taking a slight liberty with terminology by calling it "buying" since, say, gold mining would not generally be referred to as "buying" from the earth. The relevant point is that in crypto, the blockchain mined emission represents a market in the sense that the more demand there is for the supply, the more financial capital is required to acquire it. The price is set through bidding for the supply and that bidding is mediated by hashrate.

That's the key point why mining cannot be ditched by an asset like Dash. It can't "store" capital otherwise (since scarcity can't be implemented by limited numbers alone. It's the cost of acquisition that makes it worth something). The only other two stores of value are not available to us: on-chain token consumption and monetary velocity. The latter would have to be hundreds of times what it is at the moment to sustain a significant store of value.

So we are left with mining.

[xkcdd]

Ok, maybe I'm taking a slight liberty with terminology by calling it "buying" since, say, gold mining would not generally be referred to as "buying" from the earth.

I appreciate that Tok.  Meanwhile, I am looking forward to AFBitcorn's update, we just pumped into 6 cobs a node,  ain't that swell?

[toknormal]

6 cobs a node,   ain't that swell?

Yes, that is swell against the background of trends the last couple of yrs.

But I don't want another hangover like the last one after this pump, plesae God.

I am currently in pre-emptive hangover mitigation mode.

[AzzAz]

"...rotten soul of iCEBreaker infested him."
lol, me laugh 

[toknormal]

Ryan has the same issue as you do and looks at DASH as a monolith and not part of an ecosystem, if he had, he would have recognised that the realloc hardfork SPORK 21 did not go far enough and he needed to pull the needle 80/20 in favour of the mnode opers to attract premium investment into the coin.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along to fill space ? I sometimes think you do.

We already spend nearly half the entire supply just on nodes that cost about $20 a month to run. The balance gets dumped straight into the pockets of the masternode owner. Despite that, "premium investment" has preferentially gone to fully mined competitors that pay ZIP dividend for running a node. Zero reward. Nada. You know why that is ? Because once again you've left out half the equation as you always do - in this case capital gain. The effective reward in terms of investment growth is (capital gain on collateral + weekly reward share).

Therefore the (effective) masternode reward is not whatever the Dash protocol says it is, it's what the market says it is and depends on the value of Dash. This is what's ridiculous about all your arguments - you could have an 80% MN reward that translates to $100 a week or a 20% reward that translates to $1000 per week and if increasing the masternode reward ratio to the point where we LOSE value compared to a 100% mined competitor then no amount of "moving the needle" is going to do zip for marketcap (investment) growth.

IMO where we should be right now is at least in the 10-15 ranking with a valuation based around $800 Dash to move into the next growth phase. Masternode reward share would have to be around 20% to sustain that but the DOLLAR value of that reward AND marketcap would be far healthier than it is now or has been for the last 3-4 years. That would represent a robust store-of-value platform to attract attention and USE to Dash's useability features which are almost meaningless without a strong and competitive store-of-value performance. Not this cyclical pump followed by slow-bleed chronic dump that we've had ever since 2017.

[nutildah]

IMO where we should be right now is at least in the 10-15 ranking with a valuation based around $800 Dash to move into the next growth phase.

Have you tried banging your head against the wall? Maybe that works. 

[toknormal]

Have you tried banging your head against the wall?

The wall you might more productively concern yourself with is this one at 5000 nodes since one of the objectives of the reward ratio shift was to draw more supply out of circulation to absorb our high early emission. Instead it seems to be having the reverse effect and putting the masternodes themselves into circulation.

Just another one for the list where the the protocol change is having the opposite impact to that intended  

Maybe I will be proved wrong and we'll get a sudden pump in nodecount. Or maybe the core problem is weak capital gain performance relative to fully mined competitors (FMC's) who subject their supply to competition leading to higher scarcity value. (That combined with Dash's increasingly fragmented and distributed coin supply  - a good thing in itself - lowering the nodecount ceiling).

Remember that the value placed on scarcity (the basis for mined, non-defi investment) isn't simply limited number. It's the effort required to acquire a coin from the primary supply. That effort is in inverse proportion to the profit made between acquisition and sale. So if you make 100% profit = the scarcity value was zero.

Do your own math

If I'm wrong about the nodecount trajectory and it starts to go back up then what will happen is the price will skyrocket WHILE the nodecount is increasing to the new equilibrium level. It's what happens when it hits that equilibrium level that's concerning because then the economics reverse and you get this massive profitability disparity between mining and masternode activity leading to the 2-year long crash in ranking against our contemporary FMCs.



How is monetary velocity doing ?

ZIP. FMCs are out of sight even on that count. Even the turtle-paced XMR is about to overtake us. Why ? Because store of value performance has far more impact on blockchain usage than "wallet ease of use" does. In turn, mining stabilises store-of-value performance while giving away coins pre-loaded with a 100% profit margin creates about as much stability as a gold vault with an open day.

[yurez]

Updated Product Brief: Dash Core Release v0.17

Dash Core v0.17 is a major release and will be a mandatory upgrade for all masternodes, miners, and users. Version 0.17 introduces a number of improvements to Dash, including performance optimizations, wallet user interface enhancements, greater stability, and numerous enhancements through Bitcoin backports. Below are a few key highlights of this release. Comprehensive details will be found in the release notes.

https://blog.dash.org/updated-product-brief-dashcore-release-v0-17-339f739b5cfa

[gadado2]

Hello from the past! 

Just discovered that my old hero account "gadado" was hacked and missused for the whole last year.
Everything postest later than March 19, 2020 isn't from me.

Where do I report this? Can anyone tell me?

I read about your debate of the reward increase for Masternode owners.

If you want my opinion. I do not see this as a good move but it doesn't really matters for the price.
The value of a cash coin is a result of it's incentive to use it. Make it required for payments of goods.

Oh and in the case moocowmoo still reads this forum... (couldnt contact him through any canals) you can stop hosteing all of my masternodes. There are all not generating any coins anymore because an operator reset command on your side had to be send that you never did. Unfortunatly you are the owner of the full BLS key pair. Tried to find a workaround with new generated BLS keys but the dash network did not accept it and keept banning the masternodes.
But still thank you for hosting the masternodes for me the years before. You really did a good service than for me and I guess for many others too!

2 months ago I set up all the masternodes by myself thanks to that excellent setup description of the xkcd user over on dash.org
Since I am not into linux I am pretty lost in that world and more than copy past of the commands I can't do.

[rhomelmabini]

Hello from the past! 

Just discovered that my old hero account "gadado" was hacked and missused for the whole last year.
Everything postest later than March 19, 2020 isn't from me.

Where do I report this? Can anyone tell me?

I read about your debate of the reward increase for Masternode owners.

If you want my opinion. I do not see this as a good move but it doesn't really matters for the price.
The value of a cash coin is a result of it's incentive to use it. Make it required for payments of goods.

Oh and in the case moocowmoo still reads this forum... (couldnt contact him through any canals) you can stop hosteing all of my masternodes. There are all not generating any coins anymore because an operator reset command on your side had to be send that you never did. Unfortunatly you are the owner of the full BLS key pair. Tried to find a workaround with new generated BLS keys but the dash network did not accept it and keept banning the masternodes.
But still thank you for hosting the masternodes for me the years before. You really did a good service than for me and I guess for many others too!

2 months ago I set up all the masternodes by myself thanks to that excellent setup description of the xkcd user over on dash.org
Since I am not into linux I am pretty lost in that world and more than copy past of the commands I can't do.

Try to make a post at Meta board as it was more appropriate there regarding this issue you've got. If I were you please be prepared to have a signed message of your past wallets used here in the forum. Try to read this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5089777.0

[gadado2]

Try to make a post at Meta board as it was more appropriate there regarding this issue you've got. If I were you please be prepared to have a signed message of your past wallets used here in the forum. Try to read this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5089777.0

Thank you. I send theymos a message. Hopefully that will do it.
Since it's over a year and the hacker did who knows what I see no point in getting the account back.
I am surprised my 21 chars psw, a very wild letter and number mix, could be hacked.

[rhomelmabini]

Try to make a post at Meta board as it was more appropriate there regarding this issue you've got. If I were you please be prepared to have a signed message of your past wallets used here in the forum. Try to read this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5089777.0

Thank you. I send theymos a message. Hopefully that will do it.
Since it's over a year and the hacker did who knows what I see no point in getting the account back.
I am surprised my 21 chars psw, a very wild letter and number mix, could be hacked.

No worries, good thing I use the Patrol feature and saw your post but I know there will be the one to help you anyways even I haven't seen it first. Hackers are really that good nowadays that's why I changed passwords regularly. Just take the steps necessary on the link I gave you, that will do just fine.

[WastedLTC]

Oh and in the case moocowmoo still reads this forum... (couldnt contact him through any canals) you can stop hosteing all of my masternodes. There are all not generating any coins anymore because an operator reset command on your side had to be send that you never did. Unfortunatly you are the owner of the full BLS key pair. Tried to find a workaround with new generated BLS keys but the dash network did not accept it and keept banning the masternodes.
But still thank you for hosting the masternodes for me the years before. You really did a good service than for me and I guess for many others too!

Moocow has been MIA...   he has been holding some of my dash for the shared MNs and I'm still getting payments but I've requested my Dash back for well over 2 years and no answer...   So far my dash payments have been about 25% of the dash I originally sent,  helps that I didn't lose everything.

[gadado2]

Moocow has been MIA...   he has been holding some of my dash for the shared MNs and I'm still getting payments but I've requested my Dash back for well over 2 years and no answer...   So far my dash payments have been about 25% of the dash I originally sent,  helps that I didn't lose everything.

Strangly he did update all masternodes to 0.16.1.1 but never cared to check if they are still used (collateral still there) or in an error state.
In may case the update came too late and the nodes where already pos banned which requires the mentioned reset from his side with the BLS private key. I know however someone still have a working masternode hosted on masternode.me for that one the update came in time.

I asume he simple is not interessted in coins anymore and does put in the minimals effort possible. A bit a pitty he should have properly disolved everthing with everyone. But like I say I am very thanksfull for all the years he hosted the nodes for me/us.
It was very great and easy to set up a masternode with masternode.me.

[gadado2]

Try to make a post at Meta board as it was more appropriate there regarding this issue you've got. If I were you please be prepared to have a signed message of your past wallets used here in the forum. Try to read this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5089777.0

Theymos didn't react to my message so I wrote an email according to that Recovering hacked/lost accounts.
Thinking about it I lost my email account access used for gadado at the same time and that one had an easy to hack password. Only 7 letters yikes! Never thought that email address is important. It was a dispensable email account for me. But yeah if he hacked that and saw a bitcointalk reference it doesn't take much brain to go there and reset the psw and have full access to the account.

All sleeping in the DASH forum!?
The things have changed! lol

[jaowoo]

All sleeping in the DASH forum!?
The things have changed! lol

what changed? Has Dash become more volatile and profitable than US Treasuries?