[BET] Trump or not Trump 2020, eddie13 vs suchmoon

[JollyGood]

I just spent 2 days downtown Grand Rapids and yeah..
The world is insane, Biden signs everywhere, city people are off their rocker crazy, the hospitals down there treat you like you are entering restricted military space or some shit..
The people are so conditioned to obey authority it’s scary..

Imma stay innawods..

Took grandpa to have a minor surgery, he had to stop to pee..
Stop at gas station and let him go in alone, I didn’t hear this till later..
Woman in there stopped him from using the bathroom because the bathrooms were “closed for Covid”..
She says she’s sorry, and he says “I’m sorry too because if you don’t let me in there I’m going to piss right here in the floor”..
She didn’t let him in the bathroom, poor old man couldn’t hold it and pissed his pants literally on the floor just like he said..

I knew we had to go buy him new pants, but didn’t find out till the next day that they refused to let him in the bathroom because Covid..

Sorry to read about issues at the gas station with your grandfather. Sounds like the woman was over the top with her reaction.

Autocorrect seems to be forcing me to capitalize Covid so I’m going to have to go back to saying china virus to spit it..

That is how Trump describes it (China virus, Wuhan virus and Wuhan flu), he said it in the past and said it today during his recorded message to the UNGA. Not sure if it is conducive to international diplomacy but it will appeal to his centre-right, right and far-right base as well as the evangelicals that he needs to please so badly he needs to vote for him in the US Presidential election.

[TwitchySeal]

Hope we can get one more good scotus pick..
It is the main reason real conservatives vote trump..

So what do you think will happen if he lets one get confirmed before the election?

Was just thinking about it...seems like his best play is to sabotage whoever he nominates and blame the democrats.  

After RGBs seat, it's unlikely there will be another opening in the next decade let alone next 4 years. Think about it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but Trump letting a confirmation happen or seem inevitable before election day seems like it would be a big mistake.

What? No...
SCOTUS picks are more important than him winning the election..
If the main reason for electing him is to install good conservative judges, why would I want him to delay appointing a judge?

He should most definitely slam one through while he can, Incase he loses in November..
SCOTUS picks should not be some pawn to be toyed with to try to gain a little edge in an election..

I'm saying from Trumps perspective.

He was a registered Democrat not long ago.  He was pro-choice, pro gay marriage, donated to Clinton campaign and invited Bill and Hillary to his most recent wedding.  I doubt he really cares what SCOTUS looks like other than how it can be best leveraged to help him politically.

With the court packing threats my theory is kind of shot though since conservatives that only vote for Trump because of SCOTUS picks will still be motivated to do so if he gets a nominee through before the election.

[JollyGood]

Well blow me down with a feather... I never knew Trump was once-upon-a-time Democrat. I knew he socialised with the Clintons but never knew they were at his wedding to Melania.

Why did he change his "pro" views and why did he become a Republican?

~snip~

He was a registered Democrat not long ago.  He was pro-choice, pro gay marriage, donated to Clinton campaign and invited Bill and Hillary to his most recent wedding.  I doubt he really cares what SCOTUS looks like other than how it can be best leveraged to help him politically.

[TwitchySeal]

Well blow me down with a feather... I never knew Trump was once-upon-a-time Democrat. I knew he socialised with the Clintons but never knew they were at his wedding to Melania.

Why did he change his "pro" views and why did he become a Republican?

~snip~

He was a registered Democrat not long ago.  He was pro-choice, pro gay marriage, donated to Clinton campaign and invited Bill and Hillary to his most recent wedding.  I doubt he really cares what SCOTUS looks like other than how it can be best leveraged to help him politically.

I think pretty much everything he does is to either gain more power or not lose the power he already has.  Issues like abortion or gay rights don't affect him directly, so, he sides with whoever he thinks will help him the most with his ultimate goal - with the exception of when he acts out of spite.

[JollyGood]

If what you say is accurate (and I have no reason doubt you), it seems Trump is either a very shrewd businessman who gets what he wants depending on which way the momentum pendulum is swinging or he is more dangerous than I previously thought.

If he ends his political career as a one term President he still would have achieved what many thought was the impossible when launched his campaign in Trump towers back in 2015. Like him or not, have to give credit to him for tapping in to the right and far right voters as well as the evangelicals as their votes were an important factor in getting him to the White House.

Trump seems to thrive on any form of attention because of his seemingly deluded narcissistic personality but how much will Biden and Harris contribute towards a Trump victory if they fail to make the correct impression on the youth and first time voters? So hard to tell anything right now, things will become clearer on the day after the election when the votes are counted and the results start coming in fast.

Well blow me down with a feather... I never knew Trump was once-upon-a-time Democrat. I knew he socialised with the Clintons but never knew they were at his wedding to Melania.

Why did he change his "pro" views and why did he become a Republican?

~snip~

He was a registered Democrat not long ago.  He was pro-choice, pro gay marriage, donated to Clinton campaign and invited Bill and Hillary to his most recent wedding.  I doubt he really cares what SCOTUS looks like other than how it can be best leveraged to help him politically.

I think pretty much everything he does is to either gain more power or not lose the power he already has.  Issues like abortion or gay rights don't affect him directly, so, he sides with whoever he thinks will help him the most with his ultimate goal - with the exception of when he acts out of spite.

[eddie13]

It’s completely impossible that Trump just wants to do well for the United States.. Right?

[suchmoon]

It’s completely impossible that Trump just wants to do well for the United States.. Right?

Yes. He repeatedly attacks groups comprising most of US population, like immigrants, Democrats, or women, so it's safe to say that he doesn't consider himself as working for them, let alone wants "to do well" for them.

Arguably he doesn't really want "to do well" for his Republican base either ("love the poorly educated") but as long as their goals align (getting him reelected) he'll pretend that he tolerates them. Watch him turn on the Republicans if he's not reelected.

[eddie13]

It’s completely impossible that Trump just wants to do well for the United States.. Right?

Yes. He repeatedly attacks groups comprising most of US population, like immigrants, Democrats, or women, so it's safe to say that he doesn't consider himself as working for them, let alone wants "to do well" for them.

Well I disagree..
It’s about doing well for the future of the country, not doing well for those who don’t care about the future of the country..

Immigrants and democrats don’t care about the future of the country, mostly.. They just care about what they think is shortsightedly best for themselves, and most women are too sympathetic to put logic before feelings and put freedom and opportunity of prosperity before giving free stuff to poor people..

If you want to try the power hungry authoritarian card, that lies squarely at the feet of the democrats/left..

Increase immigration of people that do not hold the values this country was founded on so they can vote selfishly.. Increase taxes on the real value creators to make life easier on the net negative taxpayers (getters).. Ban guns so people feel safer in more temporary security.. Reduce freedom of speech so people don’t get their feelings hurt.. Increase the scotus judge count above 9 so the founding principles can more easily be trampled.. “Mandate masks nationwide”.. Further socialize healthcare..
And on and on and on..

Clown world..

[suchmoon]

It’s about doing well for the future of the country, not doing well for those who don’t care about the future of the country..

Immigrants and democrats don’t care about the future of the country, mostly.. They just care about what they think is shortsightedly best for themselves, and most women are too sympathetic to put logic before feelings and put freedom and opportunity of prosperity before giving free stuff to poor people..

My post was bait that you were not supposed to take LOL

Even if I think that Republicans don't care about the future of the country (and given how easily they part with the principles of fiscal responsibility or even democracy itself it might be true) I still don't think their concerns shouldn't matter. Minority rule is a fucked up thing. Majority rule is fucked up most of the time too.

Sometimes I get the feeling that this country has been calling itself the beacon of freedom, the shining city on a hill for far too long so that people forgot what it really means. Speaking of immigrants - many of them come from truly screwed up places and tend to know the actual price of freedom much better than your average constitutionalist.

[TwitchySeal]

It’s completely impossible that Trump just wants to do well for the United States.. Right?

Yes. He repeatedly attacks groups comprising most of US population, like immigrants, Democrats, or women, so it's safe to say that he doesn't consider himself as working for them, let alone wants "to do well" for them.

Well I disagree..
It’s about doing well for the future of the country, not doing well for those who don’t care about the future of the country..

Immigrants and democrats don’t care about the future of the country, mostly.. They just care about what they think is shortsightedly best for themselves, and most women are too sympathetic to put logic before feelings and put freedom and opportunity of prosperity before giving free stuff to poor people..

If you want to try the power hungry authoritarian card, that lies squarely at the feet of the democrats/left..

Increase immigration of people that do not hold the values this country was founded on so they can vote selfishly.. Increase taxes on the real value creators to make life easier on the net negative taxpayers (getters).. Ban guns so people feel safer in more temporary security.. Reduce freedom of speech so people don’t get their feelings hurt.. Increase the scotus judge count above 9 so the founding principles can more easily be trampled.. “Mandate masks nationwide”.. Further socialize healthcare..
And on and on and on..

Clown world..

Do you really not see Trumps pattern of authoritarian tendencies?  

Attacking the media, contradicting science, spreading misinformation, seizing power from congress...

[Gyfts]

Do you really not see Trumps pattern of authoritarian tendencies?  

Attacking the media, contradicting science, spreading misinformation, seizing power from congress...

How is Trump seizing power from Congress? The senate has full authority to block a vote on a nominee if they please. Democrats have threatened to pack the courts if they don't get what they want here, which is basically seizing power from congress so judges can legislate from the bench.

[squatz1]

Do you really not see Trumps pattern of authoritarian tendencies?  

Attacking the media, contradicting science, spreading misinformation, seizing power from congress...

How is Trump seizing power from Congress? The senate has full authority to block a vote on a nominee if they please. Democrats have threatened to pack the courts if they don't get what they want here, which is basically seizing power from congress so judges can legislate from the bench.

Would probably have to agree with the fact that I don't think Trump is 'seizing power' from Congress. I don't think this is new of the executive branch to constantly take more and more power form Congress. Trump is typically following the natural progression of the all powerful executive.

Do I agree with this happening? No.

Do I think that most Presidents since fucking Nixon have done this? Yes.

Obama did it, Bush, Clinton, everyone. Each party yells and screams that it is a problem but then when 'their guy' is in office they disregard it.

[TwitchySeal]

Do you really not see Trumps pattern of authoritarian tendencies?  

Attacking the media, contradicting science, spreading misinformation, seizing power from congress...

How is Trump seizing power from Congress? The senate has full authority to block a vote on a nominee if they please. Democrats have threatened to pack the courts if they don't get what they want here, which is basically seizing power from congress so judges can legislate from the bench.

I wasn't referring to the recent SCOTUS news.

Some examples of things he's done to weaken the legislative branch and increase the executive banch:

-Diverted military funding to pay for the border wall without congressional approval.

-Withheld funds that congress had already signed off on  to help Ukraine in order to pressure the Ukrainian president to publicly announce an investigation into Biden.

-Refuses to allow House leaders to be briefed on military strikes or potential military strikes - I think he said something like 'my tweets are your briefing'.

[squatz1]

Do you really not see Trumps pattern of authoritarian tendencies?  

Attacking the media, contradicting science, spreading misinformation, seizing power from congress...

How is Trump seizing power from Congress? The senate has full authority to block a vote on a nominee if they please. Democrats have threatened to pack the courts if they don't get what they want here, which is basically seizing power from congress so judges can legislate from the bench.

I wasn't referring to the recent SCOTUS news.

Some examples of things he's done to weaken the legislative branch and increase the executive banch:

-Diverted military funding to pay for the border wall without congressional approval.

-Withheld funds that congress had already signed off on  to help Ukraine in order to pressure the Ukrainian president to publicly announce an investigation into Biden.

-Refuses to allow House leaders to be briefed on military strikes or potential military strikes - I think he said something like 'my tweets are your briefing'.

Military funding without congressional approval -- Does anyone know where this is at in the courts as of right now? As this was money diverted from SPECIFIC programs (picked by the WH / other counsels) that were thought by some to be able to be under the discretion of the President.

Ukraine, well yeah, this shouldn't have happened. Though having the final say on ordering the funds to be released is up to the executive branch (disregarding the whole rest of the scandal for a moment)

House leaders briefings -- I know they are getting briefings delivered to them now, it's not in person but it is still being delivered to them on sheets of paper. Them in this case being the gang of eight (intelligence) who have to be kept in the loop on things relating to national security. Yet again, this is one of those things that have just been left to the executive being nice enough to share a lot of info. Has never been tested in the courts relating to how much info / how often / etc (to the best of my knowledge)

Sigh, the executive will always be a King (or Queen)

[JollyGood]

Yes it is possible that he just wants to do well for the US but many of his steps or missteps have not been conducive for either domestic or international cohesion.

Not sure exactly what he has managed to achieve that can be classed as a success for the citizens of the USA.

It’s completely impossible that Trump just wants to do well for the United States.. Right?

[Gyfts]

Do you really not see Trumps pattern of authoritarian tendencies?  

Attacking the media, contradicting science, spreading misinformation, seizing power from congress...

How is Trump seizing power from Congress? The senate has full authority to block a vote on a nominee if they please. Democrats have threatened to pack the courts if they don't get what they want here, which is basically seizing power from congress so judges can legislate from the bench.

I wasn't referring to the recent SCOTUS news.

Some examples of things he's done to weaken the legislative branch and increase the executive banch:

-Diverted military funding to pay for the border wall without congressional approval.

-Withheld funds that congress had already signed off on  to help Ukraine in order to pressure the Ukrainian president to publicly announce an investigation into Biden.

-Refuses to allow House leaders to be briefed on military strikes or potential military strikes - I think he said something like 'my tweets are your briefing'.

I don't disagree with you on the border wall funding. He had the legal authority to divert funding for national security, but obviously illegal immigration isn't a national security threat, fair criticism.

Your other two examples are more nuanced. If we're talking about precedent, Obama routinely started military conflicts without congressional approval. It isn't necessarily a Trump thing. The power of the executive has grown exponentially.

[JollyGood]

The wall has cost billions so far and has not yet been completed, it may cost up to $22+ billion to complete and maybe $750 million per year to maintain. Currently costing around $20 million per mile ($12.5 million per km).

Just not sure that was really a priority for a Presidential candidate to make a pledge about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_wall

I don't disagree with you on the border wall funding. He had the legal authority to divert funding for national security, but obviously illegal immigration isn't a national security threat, fair criticism.

Your other two examples are more nuanced. If we're talking about precedent, Obama routinely started military conflicts without congressional approval. It isn't necessarily a Trump thing. The power of the executive has grown exponentially.

[eddie13]

The wall would have been a lot easier and cheaper if it wasn’t caught tooth and nail every inch of the way..
It is a threat to national security as soon as the flood of immigrants can vote..

Authoritarian?
Even something as simple as masks, Biden has no qualms about even stating in his ads he wants to implement a nationwide mandatory mask order..
It’s not even comparable.. The left is so authoritarian they are nonchalant about it.. They advertise it..

You are a problem with what trump did with Ukraine but not what Biden did in Ukraine?
Really?
Same with the Russia scandal, accuse Trump of exactly what they themselves have done..

The media is also absolutely disgusting.. Pushing their leftist agenda in everything they report..
Can you not see it?

[squatz1]

The wall has cost billions so far and has not yet been completed, it may cost up to $22+ billion to complete and maybe $750 million per year to maintain. Currently costing around $20 million per mile ($12.5 million per km).

Just not sure that was really a priority for a Presidential candidate to make a pledge about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_wall

I don't disagree with you on the border wall funding. He had the legal authority to divert funding for national security, but obviously illegal immigration isn't a national security threat, fair criticism.

Your other two examples are more nuanced. If we're talking about precedent, Obama routinely started military conflicts without congressional approval. It isn't necessarily a Trump thing. The power of the executive has grown exponentially.

So there is one thing that I understand about the wall and why it 'would kinda work'. It can't be taken down by the next President by executive order. Once it would be put it, I think it would be pretty unpopular to just remove a border wall on your own whims. With that said, the thought process for some is that Dems don't care about ilegal immigraiton and b/c of that if they put up a physical structure of a wall then the Dems aren't able to sabotage it.

I would much rather us build a VIRTUAL wall on the border with the usage of drones and such, much cheaper and much more effective. But I guess we'll see where that goes. The common issue in all of these solutions is that we have a massive shortage of border patrol agents mostly b/c we don't pay them enough and we can't attract the right sort of talent. Why go work for border patrol when you can make more as a private security guard? LOL.

[suchmoon]

So there is one thing that I understand about the wall and why it 'would kinda work'. It can't be taken down by the next President by executive order. Once it would be put it, I think it would be pretty unpopular to just remove a border wall on your own whims. With that said, the thought process for some is that Dems don't care about ilegal immigraiton and b/c of that if they put up a physical structure of a wall then the Dems aren't able to sabotage it.

The "wall" is comically DDOSable. It takes someone perhaps a half hour and one charge of a DeWalt battery to cut a hole through it, and probably days and thousands of dollars for the US taxpayer to fix it. No Dem sabotage involved.