[ANN] IPO of MaidSafe: Entering the Future of the Decentralized Internet

[mr_random]

At the end of the day BTC investors were promised 17,000 maid for 1 btc (+40% bonus) and thats what was delivered. Nothing more, nothing less.
My 2 cents.

Your logic is ridiculous. I see a couple of other people defending this robbery with these insane arguments.

So if 17000 maidsafecoins plunge to zero in value, nothing is lost right? Because you've still got your 17000 maidsafecoins worth nothing? 

Simple fact is, anyone who invested via BTC (which was millions of dollars worth in total) have realised an instant loss. Btw what happened with maidsafe in a regulated market would actually be illegal. People have served jail time for dodgy IPO offerings which screw investors. So for people to come in here and say "oh you've still gotten your 17,000 maidsafe coins what's the problem? :trollface:" are making themselves look very ignorant indeed.

Some very negative press will be coming maidsafe's way soon.

[1714079020]

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[TheMightyX]

.. If they try to compensate BTC users "printing" more MaidSafe for them, would be really unfair for the BTC users who bought MSC for the "promotion".

That seems like it would have been a very small percentage of the actual MSC investors, as MSC investing was closed early.
We don't know what percent of those MSC investors were BTC investors who bought MSC (2%-5%?) but we know 100% of BTC investors got screwed. We should focus on what can be done to help the most people, not worry about a small few who got burned because they tried to take advantage of an unfair situation.

I'm going to give them a couple more days to clear this up. At the bare minimum they need to acknowledge clearly that one party of people were able to acquire safecoins significantly cheaper than the other party of people at the same time. Thus causing BTC investors to realise an instant loss.

Instant loss?  I invested via BTC and I still have all my maidsafecoin.  I've experienced zero loss.

learn2economics, if everyone else's money is worth twice what your money is worth and your money doubles in value, you've lost half of your potential profit. That's the same as if someone put their hand in your wallet and took half of the money you had to invest.

Yes, you've experienced a loss, you just haven't realized that loss yet.
You will realize this loss when you go to sell and the person beside you (who invested the same amount via MSC) earns twice as much.

[WilderX]

You people... dare to whine... being the few thousand human holding safecoins in your pocket... and the rest of 7 BILLION DOES NOT.

I would like to hurt you... YES. Is nothing ever enough for you?

[matt608]

I was one of the investors who bought (a small amount) of MSC in the aim of getting a better rate for the MSAFE.  I missed the deadline by 1 minute, but David Johnston of bitangels allowed me to send the MSC I bought to him and traded the MSAFE with me at the crowdsale rate. 

I also bought in with BTC during the IPO while waiting for this trade to go down to make sure I didn't miss it.  I predicted that the value of MSAFE had effectively been devalued to below the IPO rate before the IPO was even over due to the BTC investors essentially bailing out huge MSC bag holders, who would then presumably sell off their MSAFE into BTC as a way of cashing out of MSC.  I realised this and placed a low order for MSAFE on the exchange too, but bought in anyway at the IPO rate despite being aware of this, just because it's such an awesome project I didn't want to risk missing the opportunity.  It ticks all the boxes, ideologically, technically as well as being a potentially brilliant investment.

Clearly the IPO went a bit wrong but I'm pleased with my purchase and think Maidsafe is potentially awesome and I'm glad to be part of it and look forward to becoming a 'farmer' myself.

The price doesn't matter currently as the Maidsafe test net hasn't even launched yet.

[TheMightyX]

"This gave us cause for concern, but experts in the field reassured us the MSC part of sale would be minimal."

They can't expect this when offering a 3:1 better offer when paying with MSC.
The question is, are they idiots or liying?


"Days before the sale we found out the loan amount of MSC would not cover the bitcoin part of the sale, this floored us. A date was set, we had done loads of meetings, talks and interviews stating this. Was MaidSafe going to fail in such a huge step? No we were determined not to. It was suggested we could set the MSC -> BTC rate at 0.3 or 0.4 which we read and nearly collapsed. This was 3 or 4 times market value, how would this be possible. We were convinced to set a rate of 0.2 and the sale could be funded to make sure BTC holders were covered. Again it was stated that MSC would not be above 25% of the sale."

I have no words for this  

Source: http://metaquestions.me/2014/05/01/surviving-a-crowd-sale/

After reading the line regarding the valuation of MSC shares at 3-4 times their current market value (in essence devaluing safecoin shares) and NOT expecting a mad rush to snatch up as much as possible, I have to assume malicious intent.

Let's put this in perspective:
Two people walk into a store, one is paying in US dollars and the other is paying in Euro.
The owner comes up to these two people and says "anyone paying in Euro gets 75% off!".

Who do you think is going to spend more?
The person paying in EURO has an incentive to spend as much as he can, as he is in essence tripling or quadrupling his money.

What makes this worse is it was set up in a way that it was trade-able on an exchange from day one.
I can't accept that level of oversight on a project this big and this important.

Maidsafe, I want to trust you, but you are giving me reason not to.

[Anotheranonlol]

MasterCoin's high profile backers; Brock Pierce, David Johnston etc--  guys with fingers in lots of pies  had a discussion, pulled a few strings and came up with a novel idea to enrich themselves further.

rich gon get richer.. in other news water is wet

[TheMightyX]

At the end of the day it's over with now, instead of bickering on here like little children lets all sit back, take a deep breath, hold onto our maidsafe coins and lets see how this really plays out in the long term. Finger pointing and jumping to conclusions mid game is a pointless waste of energy and oxygen. The starting pistol has fired. If your in the race just keep running.

And for those of your who didn't invest and are still complaining. Why? Are you that concerned for other forum members well-being or are you just seeking the attention?

My 2 cents.

+1
thank you for bringing some sanity to this discussion

Bending over and taking it up the rear seems like a very poor method of accomplishing change or seeking compensation for damages.
By that logic any time we are abused, mistreated or slighted in any way we should just sit back and take a deep breath and forget about it, because "it's over with now" anyway?
This logic is so pathetic.

Yes if a drunk driver slams his porche into the side of your parked vehicle and you are badly injured, whats the point of seeking compensation for your loss? It's in the past right? It's already happened? What kind of moron are we dealing with here.

People have been ripped off, they have a right to voice their opinions, concerns and disapproval.
Sanity my ass. If something is wrong it is our duty to try make it right. You ever hear the expression "if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"?

Apathy is one of the key elements that has lead to the disgraceful state of this community.
We could make coin launches fair and IPO's safe for investors.
We could demand the operator of bitcointalk implement community agreed-upon rules and regulations for coin launches.
We could prevent 100% of all fraudulent scamcoins like stackcoin and edgecoin.

But too many people have your fucking retarded apathetic attitude.
And so people will keep getting scammed, and we will continue to see copycoin after copycoin.
This shits only going to keep getting worse, and we are going to keep diluting the value of all our current coins because everyone wants to mine the newest colorcoin (yea like those are going anywhere) because we as a community are too fucking greedy and or apathetic to say:

• no, I will not mine your coingen.io coin
• I will not make a pool for your copycoin
• I will not translate your ANN to whatever language
• I will not participate in your free giveaways.

Yea because we all wanna make that sweet $42 dollars dumping those worthless bits and bytes on the exchanges.
anyway /rantmodeoff,

tl;dr you guys are chumps and obviously narrow minded. What isn't important to you must not be important right?

[Fernandez]

What was the IPO price for BTC and MSC (including whatever bonus)?

Why was the IPO done on Mastercoin? Was there any advantage?

[littleblue]

Maidsafe’IPO=they cash out a serious volume of Mastercoin

[Fernandez]

Maidsafe’IPO=they cash out a serious volume of Mastercoin

I am asking about the official reason.

[sepehr]

What was the IPO price for BTC and MSC (including whatever bonus)?

Why was the IPO done on Mastercoin? Was there any advantage?

They should credit BTC Backers for additional MS otherwise the Proof of Legitimacy for Maidsafe is %50 or less!!

[testconpastas2]

I'm not selling my MSC, because I believe it is an awesome project, and I really think we are going to gain money in the next months.  But said that, I cannot understand how people can have this mild criticism about this issue.

Pricing going from "16" to "42"  depending on how you are paying  is an unfair( or even illegal) movement for whatever IPO we are talking about.

Giving more msc, till prices are equal dont affect to the fundrising, except giving them more credibility. They didnt say clearly in their web that buying with msc would be much much cheaper, so  If anyone, who transformed their btc into msc to exploit this IPO,  loses this advantage is fair enough to me.

But this is only my opinion, and besides this "faulty" IPO. I'm still supporting the project.
 

[drawingthesun]

We should also move this conversation over to http://safecointalk.org/ this might eventually become the official forum.

In addition this conversation was brought up over there: http://safecointalk.org/index.php/topic,42.msg194.html

But it seems davidpbrown has made it clear the IPO was legit, many of us disagree.

[Chang Hum]

I can't understand how the fact Mastercoin has no value at this volume goes over most of your heads  

1         x  Mastercoin = $33.5 each
10        x Mastercoin = $33.5 each  
100      x  Mastercoin = $32.33 each  
1000     x Mastercoin = $28.79 each  
10000   x Mastercoin = $3.45 each  
100000 x  Mastercoin = $0.41 each  
 

If the little value¹ Mastercoin has is derived from it's usefulness at issuing assets to business, then could someone please explain what incentive a business has to use Mastercoin under its current business strategy? ²³⁴. If you come to the conclusion a business has absolutely no incentive, please rethink David Irvine and the Mastercoin teams motives and re-asses Mastercoins value as a currency.

Hints:

1. Mastercoins haven't gone up in value, the coins have no inherent value and are simply part of an un-collapsed ponzi scheme. Any speculative value is the same speculative value that drives ponzi scheme 2.0's like dodgecoin. Money going in is fine and everyone is happy, money coming out gets a bit more tricky!

2.Their is no incentive. Issuing assets must be free (or bitcoin dust as per competing alpha systems) or the business model is floored.

3. This method of monetizing the system is not only disgusting but completely unattractive to any business person looking at it objectively.


4. David Irvine can buy his business property outright whilst shouldering the blame on Mastercoin in a scheme that will confuse most civil courts, under the terms of this arrangement it's up to a court to decide if he faces any liability for a $3 million dollar debt.

[Chang Hum]

But it seems davidpbrown has made it clear the IPO was legit, many of us disagree.

David Brown says no one envisaged this happening. Could you remind David that John Kypri (me) envisaged it on the most read thread on the google group (even before a 3 fold incentive to use Mastercoin was put in place).  

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/maidsafe-development/j8QBYnXOYUI.

Or summarized by let's talk bitcoin and bitcoin pete:

http://bitcoinpete.com/2014/04/20/the-brokenness-of-maidsafe/

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/the-brokenness-of-maidsafe/#.U2MQMmKSzfI

[biggzi]

Bending over and taking it up the rear seems like a very poor method of accomplishing change or seeking compensation for damages.
By that logic any time we are abused, mistreated or slighted in any way we should just sit back and take a deep breath and forget about it, because "it's over with now" anyway?
This logic is so pathetic.

Yes if a drunk driver slams his porche into the side of your parked vehicle and you are badly injured, whats the point of seeking compensation for your loss? It's in the past right? It's already happened? What kind of moron are we dealing with here.

I tell you now I'm not going to get involved in silly little forum troll arguments... I have far too much important stuff going on in real life to concern myself with your own narrow minded opinions. (which we're all entitled to so please feel free to have them)

I have to say though comparing investing in stock of a digital asset which has risk, volatility, profit, gain, loss etc to being in a car crash simply shows your lack of understanding of my own situation and opinion. The only element of the two you could compare is the loss, of which I have none. I purchased 23,800 maidsafe coins... I still have 23,800 maidsafe coins. I don't care what the value of these are right now as I said I invested for the long game, I expect the price to go up and DOWN before any (if any) profit will be had. And yes maybe others got more for cheaper but I knew that this was possible before the off... if it really concerned me (or anyone else for that matter) I would have invested in MSC or not bothered investing at tall.

I can understand where you are coming from with taking learning from this IPO to ensure we mitigate risk in future IPO's but at the end of the day any kind of investment is a risk if you are not happy with the fact that you might loose 100% of your investment then you are in the wrong game. Sorry but throwing your toys out of the pram simply because you might loose out on an investment is a very immature way to act and you must be playing with money that you obviously cannot afford.

I can only assume that you are simply confusing my apathy with doing proper research and understanding the risks before I got involved (as with many other forum members). For me and also most other forums members Maidsafe delivered on what I was promised so thinking that bitching on a public forum will bring about compensation for my lack of (or not of) understanding is the craziest idea of ever heard of. What kind of world do you think we live in? This isn't narnia.

The only people who I can accept would be really angry right now are those our tried to buy using MSC and missed out, its a shame but maybe you should have got up earlier. And those who were in this for a quick profit and bought with BTC, in which case I say go screw yourself and give me your maid.

[drawingthesun]

I still have 23,800 maidsafe coins.

The actual amount doesn't matter my friend, only the percentage of issuance matters.

Would you still be fine having 23,800 MaidSafecoins if the IPO gave so much more to Mastercoin holders that instead of owning 0.0001% of the IPO you owned 0.00005% of the IPO?

When Safecoin eventually has a market cap of $100,000,000 you will be half as rich as you could have been.

When talking about IPO, you're reference to having a number of MaidSafecoins without regarding your dilution shows you are confusing the matter.

Get out a calculator and project different market caps onto Safecoin, you'll soon find yourself very poor.

[FrictionlessCoin]

I still have 23,800 maidsafe coins.

The actual amount doesn't matter my friend, only the percentage of issuance matters.

Would you still be fine having 23,800 MaidSafecoins if the IPO gave so much more to Mastercoin holders that instead of owning 0.0001% of the IPO you owned 0.00005% of the IPO?

When Safecoin eventually has a market cap of $100,000,000 you will be half as rich as you could have been.

When talking about IPO, you're reference to having a number of MaidSafecoins without regarding your dilution shows you are confusing the matter.

Get out a calculator and project different market caps onto Safecoin, you'll soon find yourself very poor.

The calculation of $100m marketcap is equivalent to saying that BTC should have a marketcap double what it is today.   BTC mining is just a distribution method,  just the same with Maidsafecoin farming.  The only difference is the implementation,  BTC is some arbitrary cap number and Maidsafe is actually capped because you can't have more coins than the maximum for a 32 bit number.

So the current float is indeed 7 million while the BTC float is 5.6 billion.  Mining and Farming are just different coin distribution methods.  All mining and farming does is it controls the release of coins based on the resource consumption of the miner/farmer.  The coins are already there, you just can't trade them!

[biggzi]

I still have 23,800 maidsafe coins.

The actual amount doesn't matter my friend, only the percentage of issuance matters.

Would you still be fine having 23,800 MaidSafecoins if the IPO gave so much more to Mastercoin holders that instead of owning 0.0001% of the IPO you owned 0.00005% of the IPO?

When Safecoin eventually has a market cap of $100,000,000 you will be half as rich as you could have been.

When talking about IPO, you're reference to having a number of MaidSafecoins without regarding your dilution shows you are confusing the matter.

Get out a calculator and project different market caps onto Safecoin, you'll soon find yourself very poor.

Thanks drawingthesun this is a good point. But I totally understand this. But this is not what I was getting at. I am taking the value of Maid out of the equation. I was given what I was promised. I could have invested using MSC if I wanted but I chose not too. How can I moan about not getting the value that MSC investors got when I was given just as much information and opportunity to invest using MSC as everyone else. I am simply getting at the fact that Maidsafe delivered on what I was promised so how can I complain? If I wasn't happy I could have easily got in with the MSC crowed or not invested at all.

What I am trying to get at is Maidsafe were very open about their IPO strategy from the start. If I missed out then its my own fault for not doing my research and missing out on an opportunity that others have capitalized on. Its like running a marathon and the organisers telling me before the race I could start at the half way point, I still choose to start at the original starting point and then complain after the race cus others got a head start. Sometimes in life you miss out on opportunities and sometimes in life others get a slight advantage but in the case of this IPO everyone had the same opportunities and advantages its just that some were sleeping or day dreaming at the time.

I hope this makes my reasoning or "apathy" a bit clearer.

[Bimmerhead]

Yes if a drunk driver slams his porche into the side of your parked vehicle and you are badly injured, whats the point of seeking compensation for your loss? It's in the past right? It's already happened? What kind of moron are we dealing with here.

People have been ripped off, they have a right to voice their opinions, concerns and disapproval.
Sanity my ass. If something is wrong it is our duty to try make it right. You ever hear the expression "if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"?

If you are standing in the middle of a freeway of drunks, you know they're drunks, and you know they are all driving 100 mph and you get hit?  Right, that IS your problem.

People have not been ripped off.  In fact, this IPO has been more generous than advertised.  Everyone was made fully aware of the option to purchase with Mastercoin, this was not hidden.  I myself purchased only with BTC and am grateful for the opportunity to have done so.  Because I had absolutely nothing to do with the development of maidsafe, yet I (along with everyone here) was given the opportunity to buy in at the ground level of what could be a game-changing company.

If you know of someone who did not receive the maidsafecoin they were promised in return for their BTC or Mastercoin, then post the details.  Otherwise stop feeding people's greed and sense of entitlement.