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Author Topic: [ANN] IPO of MaidSafe:  Entering the Future of the Decentralized Internet  (Read 530279 times)
zeeman
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April 11, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
 #1641

The Vaults are tested right now. Should take some days but all looks well. Several libraries are locked in the code as we wait for the MVP to come out. Not this week though...





Here's the link
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April 12, 2016, 12:50:48 AM
 #1642

You were asked to stop being a child. And you were asked respectfully. Why does an intelligent man need to include this ^^^ kind of pathetic nonsense?

This 'earning respect' thingy. Lecture the readers a little more, on how this works for you.   

The problem is that SafeCoins are not actually safe.

They use the radically transparent Bitcoin blockchain, so they are easily traceable/linkable/public.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using an encrypted P2P VPN like Maid?

It would be like requiring Paypal to use TOR.  Bad idea.

There's a difference between Maidsafecoin and Safecoin which you don't get. Maidsafecoin was the "proxy coin" for the crowdsale. Safecoin will be implemented on the SAFE Network. And for Safecoin no blockchain is used. So when you send your Maidsafecoin to an address provided by Maidsafe, they'll send you your Safecoin over the SAFE Network. Another option probably is that exchanges like Poloniex will do the switch. Once on Safenet no one can trace any coins back to you. There's no blockchain on that system. No way to send a request and see which address has how many coins. You could make 150 new addresses in your wallet all owned by you an nobody has a clue who the owner is. You could even make a temporarily account on SAFE just to get the coins. Once you have them you send them to your real account and nobody has a clue you did it.

Thanks for the thorough explanation.  Has the convoluted process you describe been reviewed by Peter Todd or a similar expert in adversarial thinking and penetration testing?

All those steps create a large amount of attack surface, some of which may leak or possibly be tricked into reducing privacy.


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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April 12, 2016, 07:56:38 AM
 #1643

You were asked to stop being a child. And you were asked respectfully. Why does an intelligent man need to include this ^^^ kind of pathetic nonsense?

This 'earning respect' thingy. Lecture the readers a little more, on how this works for you.  

The problem is that SafeCoins are not actually safe.

They use the radically transparent Bitcoin blockchain, so they are easily traceable/linkable/public.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using an encrypted P2P VPN like Maid?

It would be like requiring Paypal to use TOR.  Bad idea.

There's a difference between Maidsafecoin and Safecoin which you don't get. Maidsafecoin was the "proxy coin" for the crowdsale. Safecoin will be implemented on the SAFE Network. And for Safecoin no blockchain is used. So when you send your Maidsafecoin to an address provided by Maidsafe, they'll send you your Safecoin over the SAFE Network. Another option probably is that exchanges like Poloniex will do the switch. Once on Safenet no one can trace any coins back to you. There's no blockchain on that system. No way to send a request and see which address has how many coins. You could make 150 new addresses in your wallet all owned by you an nobody has a clue who the owner is. You could even make a temporarily account on SAFE just to get the coins. Once you have them you send them to your real account and nobody has a clue you did it.

Thanks for the thorough explanation.  Has the convoluted process you describe been reviewed by Peter Todd or a similar expert in adversarial thinking and penetration testing?

All those steps create a large amount of attack surface, some of which may leak or possibly be tricked into reducing privacy.

Yes, there are some studies on Maidsafe from a university. Check the forum if you want to know more, don't know the direct links here. And Satoshi just lunched his Bitcoin in 2009. I don't know about researchers that checked the stuff before he/she did. David from Maidsafe always says that putting stuff out to the public is the best way to get things tested. The whole system works with "ownership" so if you want to hack Safecoin you need to become the owner of other people's coins (addresses). That's not that different from trying to own someone's URL right now in the network. Or someone's username/replies on the Decorum POC. Both of them are live right now. So if you want to give it a try, feel free to hack the thing out of the SAFE-Network as it is right now. I dare to say it can't be done  Wink  
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April 12, 2016, 04:53:36 PM
 #1644

Here's the latest Dev-Update:

MaidSafe Dev Update 12th April 2016

Follow the development through GitHub/Maidsafe.




Quote
This has been a pretty terrific week for us in many ways. Crust and Routing now appear very stable in tests. We have a droplet deployer script to start up networks quickly and churn these (kill and start nodes) in a programmatic manner. These tests allow an end-to-end test of the modules. Great news crust and routing now are at a point of feature freeze for the MVP. There are some small changes, but only to satisfy other libs, the core of these libraries are now considered stable and MVP ready (as a bonus, with Udt and home networking).

This allows us to relocate resources (not all though, these libraries will evolve) to upper layers and this really is great news. Crust is low level and interoperates with the Operating System and network (I/O) which is very difficult to get right across operating systems and networks. Having this solid is a very large hurdle. Previously this module was a black hole where things could fail in upper libraries with the constant question “is that a crust error?”. Now we have passed that.

Then routing, the “workhorse” of the network became feature complete and tested to an acceptable level for MVP (Minimum Viable Product). This again was a library that was a real developer sink in terms of resources and again had to guarantee its promises were in fact being maintained. It now does! (we satisfy the kademlia invariant with a recursive version of that protocol and managed connections, this is pretty huge).

These are like an avalanche really as we move downhill to launch. Each of these layers allows a relatively huge resource base to be applied to the upper layers. Many of the resources we had in the lower modules were very highly skilled and can now deploy to upper layers, it is a huge relief).

Now we have vaults to confirm and that is happening now with 7-8 developers on a hangout every day to check/double check and confirm vaults do as they promise. Not only do they work, but make sure they are easily extensible. This is important there to allow features which will only exist in vaults and clients to be implemented with significantly greater velocity than previous. It is a very exciting time.
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April 12, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
 #1645

Many projects richly deserve FUD.  Neucoin.  Paycoin.  Cryptsy.  Dash.  Maid.  Don't like that?  Too bad.  GFY and CRY MOAR PLZ.   Kiss


How is your precious coin now, my brother. People are reading your fud and dumping your coin right now. Not a good move ai?

Need BadAss Bulletproof VPS or Bulletproof VPN or why not just mail safe with Safe-Mail. We care about your privacy.
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April 13, 2016, 12:43:06 AM
 #1646

Many projects richly deserve FUD.  Neucoin.  Paycoin.  Cryptsy.  Dash.  Maid.  Don't like that?  Too bad.  GFY and CRY MOAR PLZ.   Kiss


How is your precious coin now, my brother. People are reading your fud and dumping your coin right now. Not a good move ai?

You were asked to stop being a child. And you were asked respectfully. Why does an intelligent man need to include this ^^^ kind of pathetic nonsense?


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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April 13, 2016, 01:29:42 AM
 #1647

ice i dont know your issue but wtf mate, MAID aiming for something good here...the fuck is your issue?  did u work for them and they fired you or some shit?  you obviously have issues.  if you fud at least do it on true shit coins from scam devs or something.  thus far MAID seems to have solid work (takes bloody long yes) but also bots/eyes on it with steady vol's at each major exch.  

not sure i guess you're in monero?  i've made money on that just like i hope to with maid, playing swings because monero is manipulated just as much (if not more).  and honestly i dont know much about it but it seems like nothing special to me.  well maybe something special about it but using it? lol fuck that...useless real world from what i see.  i wont be using MAID either unless they come thru, but anyway...they could use MORE updates here yes.

you need to go get a hooker or something and some crack, chill the fuck out.  i mean not sure if your fud is doing anything but whatever, cheap coins for some of us.  i dont think you're "holding it down" so i dont have to say "stop fudding you're killing my chances at making money" cos if/when MAID moons it'll be without you apparently.

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April 13, 2016, 02:15:15 AM
 #1648

ice i dont know your issue but wtf mate, MAID aiming for something good here...the fuck is your issue?  did u work for them and they fired you or some shit?  you obviously have issues.  if you fud at least do it on true shit coins from scam devs or something.  thus far MAID seems to have solid work (takes bloody long yes) but also bots/eyes on it with steady vol's at each major exch.  

not sure i guess you're in monero?  i've made money on that just like i hope to with maid, playing swings because monero is manipulated just as much (if not more).  and honestly i dont know much about it but it seems like nothing special to me.  well maybe something special about it but using it? lol fuck that...useless real world from what i see.  i wont be using MAID either unless they come thru, but anyway...they could use MORE updates here yes.

you need to go get a hooker or something and some crack, chill the fuck out.  i mean not sure if your fud is doing anything but whatever, cheap coins for some of us.  i dont think you're "holding it down" so i dont have to say "stop fudding you're killing my chances at making money" cos if/when MAID moons it'll be without you apparently.

I've got 3 issues.

1.  MAID is ancient Kad-based tech that still can't do what Freenet did 15 years ago, yet aspires to charge for the same services and presumed to collect IPO money for vaporware development.

2. MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

3.  Inquires about issues 1 & 2 are met with hostility, speculation about motivations, personal attacks, and very little technical disclosure.

Now I've answered your question, please address one of mine.

Do you feel MAID is by default automatically due respect, or should it be forced to earn respect by demonstrated real-world utility?


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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April 13, 2016, 03:06:08 AM
 #1649

ice i dont know your issue but wtf mate, MAID aiming for something good here...the fuck is your issue?  did u work for them and they fired you or some shit?  you obviously have issues.  if you fud at least do it on true shit coins from scam devs or something.  thus far MAID seems to have solid work (takes bloody long yes) but also bots/eyes on it with steady vol's at each major exch.  

not sure i guess you're in monero?  i've made money on that just like i hope to with maid, playing swings because monero is manipulated just as much (if not more).  and honestly i dont know much about it but it seems like nothing special to me.  well maybe something special about it but using it? lol fuck that...useless real world from what i see.  i wont be using MAID either unless they come thru, but anyway...they could use MORE updates here yes.

you need to go get a hooker or something and some crack, chill the fuck out.  i mean not sure if your fud is doing anything but whatever, cheap coins for some of us.  i dont think you're "holding it down" so i dont have to say "stop fudding you're killing my chances at making money" cos if/when MAID moons it'll be without you apparently.

I've got 3 issues.

1.  MAID is ancient Kad-based tech that still can't do what Freenet did 15 years ago, yet aspires to charge for the same services and presumed to collect IPO money for vaporware development.

2. MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

3.  Inquires about issues 1 & 2 are met with hostility, speculation about motivations, personal attacks, and very little technical disclosure.

Now I've answered your question, please address one of mine.

Do you feel MAID is by default automatically due respect, or should it be forced to earn respect by demonstrated real-world utility?

meh, loaded question.  not to mention how the heck would i be "qualified" enough to answer that re. my position vs. them being (trying to be?) an established coin. 

any coin should get respect by a certain point IF they're headed in the right direction.  most alts won't/don't get real world usage, maybe this one can with what they have coming...better than most alts is my take.  of not, i dont think it freaking matters cause it's being used as another traded shitcoin by MOST crypto ppl out there (it seems?) like any other.

thus i find it hard to use the word "respect" in crypto because the years ive been here...it's just eroding away from what i can tell (from both sides of the fence).

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April 13, 2016, 05:29:14 AM
 #1650

ice i dont know your issue but wtf mate, MAID aiming for something good here...the fuck is your issue?  did u work for them and they fired you or some shit?  you obviously have issues.  if you fud at least do it on true shit coins from scam devs or something.  thus far MAID seems to have solid work (takes bloody long yes) but also bots/eyes on it with steady vol's at each major exch.  

not sure i guess you're in monero?  i've made money on that just like i hope to with maid, playing swings because monero is manipulated just as much (if not more).  and honestly i dont know much about it but it seems like nothing special to me.  well maybe something special about it but using it? lol fuck that...useless real world from what i see.  i wont be using MAID either unless they come thru, but anyway...they could use MORE updates here yes.

you need to go get a hooker or something and some crack, chill the fuck out.  i mean not sure if your fud is doing anything but whatever, cheap coins for some of us.  i dont think you're "holding it down" so i dont have to say "stop fudding you're killing my chances at making money" cos if/when MAID moons it'll be without you apparently.

I've got 3 issues.

1.  MAID is ancient Kad-based tech that still can't do what Freenet did 15 years ago, yet aspires to charge for the same services and presumed to collect IPO money for vaporware development.

2. MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

3.  Inquires about issues 1 & 2 are met with hostility, speculation about motivations, personal attacks, and very little technical disclosure.

Now I've answered your question, please address one of mine.

Do you feel MAID is by default automatically due respect, or should it be forced to earn respect by demonstrated real-world utility?

Maid, like all other projects, should earn it.

That doesn't mean that it should be encountered with inane BS, obvious fallacy, and a belligerent refusal to interact with the very specific communications provided weekly on the Safe forums.

Quote
MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

What does that even mean?  If Maid is old tech (it's not freenode), then where is the application right now that it has copied?  As far as the trendy comment, it used a blockchain for a crowdsale.  So what? 

I'm not going to plead with you to stop.  But I don't think that you have provided an intelligent answer to anything.  You seem to live in the he said/she said world of online rhetoric which fuels much of your posting.  How boring.

Quote
Originally posted by iCEBREAKER
Oh wait, even MAID is resorting to using TCP since its UDP ambitions greatly exceeded the reach of its devs' technological grasp.

Quote
This has been a pretty terrific week for us in many ways. Crust and Routing now appear very stable in tests. We have a droplet deployer script to start up networks quickly and churn these (kill and start nodes) in a programmatic manner. These tests allow an end-to-end test of the modules. Great news crust and routing now are at a point of feature freeze for the MVP. There are some small changes, but only to satisfy other libs, the core of these libraries are now considered stable and MVP ready (as a bonus, with Utp and home networking).
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/maidsafe-dev-update-12th-april-2016/8636

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zeeman
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April 13, 2016, 12:16:48 PM
 #1651

I've got 3 issues.

1.  MAID is ancient Kad-based tech that still can't do what Freenet did 15 years ago, yet aspires to charge for the same services and presumed to collect IPO money for vaporware development.

2. MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

3.  Inquires about issues 1 & 2 are met with hostility, speculation about motivations, personal attacks, and very little technical disclosure.

Now I've answered your question, please address one of mine.

Do you feel MAID is by default automatically due respect, or should it be forced to earn respect by demonstrated real-world utility?

1. It's based on Kademlia, but way faster (nodes going offline detected in milliseconds instead of hours to as much as a day). Freenet is around for years and years and although I respect them for their tech: you can't log on to Freenet, you can't register a readable URL on their system. Freenet gets your files your files from cache. Pray to the P2P Gods that your uploaded file from 3 months ago is still there. So Maidsafe is bringing us at least 3 things that Freenet couldn't so far. Authentication, URL's registered in a decentralized DNS and storage of your personal and public files as long as you want. Name me on other Kademlia based P2P-system with a decentralized DNS and Authentication. I bet you can't.

2. What on earth are you talking about? Safenet won't use a blockchain.

3. If you just FUD here on the forum you probably won't find any documentation. I'm not gonna search it for you. But here's a little example:



"very little technical disclosure"  Grin Cheesy Wink Cheesy Grin Cheesy Wink Cheesy Grin you gotta be kidding me!
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April 13, 2016, 12:28:23 PM
 #1652

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzkhA_PBys0

For the n00bs

Need BadAss Bulletproof VPS or Bulletproof VPN or why not just mail safe with Safe-Mail. We care about your privacy.
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April 13, 2016, 01:04:47 PM
 #1653

MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

What on earth are you talking about? Safenet won't use a blockchain.

I make a point about SafeCoin's (possibly risky) use of Bitcoin's public blockchain, and you talk about Safenet.   Roll Eyes

Safenet is bound to SafeCoin via a Rube Goldberg layer of chutes and ladders that may leak privacy.

Of course you'd rather talk up Safenet's internals than address concerns about the anonymity of the payment interface.

Other than some vague reference to people at universities, are any well known cypherpunks reviewing the SafeCoin<->SafeNet scheme?

Since people's lives might depend on that scheme being untraceable/unlinkable/private, I don't understand the resentment towards scrutiny.

Unless you're only here for the pump and dump....


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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April 13, 2016, 01:29:33 PM
 #1654

MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

What on earth are you talking about? Safenet won't use a blockchain.

I make a point about SafeCoin's (possibly risky) use of Bitcoin's public blockchain, and you talk about Safenet.   Roll Eyes

Safenet is bound to SafeCoin via a Rube Goldberg layer of chutes and ladders that may leak privacy.

Of course you'd rather talk up Safenet's internals than address concerns about the anonymity of the payment interface.

Other than some vague reference to people at universities, are any well known cypherpunks reviewing the SafeCoin<->SafeNet scheme?

Since people's lives might depend on that scheme being untraceable/unlinkable/private, I don't understand the resentment towards scrutiny.

Unless you're only here for the pump and dump....

I replied yesterday to your concerns about Safecoin, I also explained that Safecoins are addresses on the network. So if you want to hack someone's coins you should hack (become the owner of) these addresses. And you can't, just like you can't deface someone's safewebsite and become the owner of someone's URL on SAFE. And I don't really care if known "cypherpunks" are reviewing it or not. You are making the twist that people should prove that something works instead of you proving it doesn't (Say hi to Satoshi Nakamoto, he would've never launched Bitcoin if it is was up to you). And you keep talking here on Bitcointalk while the real interested people are on the forum diving into the technology when they want to know more. But why should you? Just make some comments about Blockchain (not part of Safenet) and Freenet, even while you don't seem to understand the differences between all these techs. And there's not enough documentation !%!^&!! This took me 3 seconds to find:

Self Encrypting Data
Self-Authentication
Safecoin: The Decentralized Network Token

So you are just trolling and fudding around here. Not really a clue what you are talking about. Hope you are enjoying it.
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April 13, 2016, 01:39:54 PM
 #1655

So you are just trolling and fudding around here. Not really a clue what you are talking about. Hope you are enjoying it.

Sorry I misspoke.  Where I said SafeCoin I meant to write MaidsafeCoin.  There are so many layers of kludge it's confusing.   Tongue

Let's try it again:


MaidsafeCoin is bound to SafeCoin via a Rube Goldberg layer of chutes and ladders that may leak privacy.

Of course you'd rather talk up Safenet's internals than address concerns about the anonymity of the payment interface.

Other than some vague reference to people at universities, are any well known cypherpunks reviewing the SafeCoin<->MaidsafeCoin scheme?

Since people's lives might depend on that scheme being untraceable/unlinkable/private, I don't understand the resentment towards scrutiny.

Unless you're only here for the pump and dump....


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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April 13, 2016, 01:44:50 PM
 #1656

@ICEBREAKER

There's a difference between Maidsafecoin and Safecoin which you don't get. Maidsafecoin was the "proxy coin" for the crowdsale. Safecoin will be implemented on the SAFE Network. And for Safecoin no blockchain is used. So when you send your Maidsafecoin to an address provided by Maidsafe, they'll send you your Safecoin over the SAFE Network. Another option probably is that exchanges like Poloniex will do the switch. Once on Safenet no one can trace any coins back to you. There's no blockchain on that system. No way to send a request and see which address has how many coins. You could make 150 new addresses in your wallet all owned by you an nobody has a clue who the owner is. You could even make a temporarily account on SAFE just to get the coins. Once you have them you send them to your real account and nobody has a clue you did it.
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April 13, 2016, 02:16:49 PM
 #1657

@ICEBREAKER

There's a difference between Maidsafecoin and Safecoin which you don't get. Maidsafecoin was the "proxy coin" for the crowdsale. Safecoin will be implemented on the SAFE Network. And for Safecoin no blockchain is used. So when you send your Maidsafecoin to an address provided by Maidsafe, they'll send you your Safecoin over the SAFE Network. Another option probably is that exchanges like Poloniex will do the switch. Once on Safenet no one can trace any coins back to you. There's no blockchain on that system. No way to send a request and see which address has how many coins. You could make 150 new addresses in your wallet all owned by you an nobody has a clue who the owner is. You could even make a temporarily account on SAFE just to get the coins. Once you have them you send them to your real account and nobody has a clue you did it.

How can you simply assert there are no privacy issues involved in this complicated chain of tokens and addresses?

Has this sophisticated scheme been vetted by any reputable crypto experts?  What do LukeJr and Peter Todd think?


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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April 13, 2016, 02:29:03 PM
 #1658


How can you simply assert there are no privacy issues involved in this complicated chain of tokens and addresses?

Has this sophisticated scheme been vetted by any reputable crypto experts?  What do LukeJr and Peter Todd think?

Ask them!
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April 13, 2016, 03:24:53 PM
 #1659

Price is on the rise. Go Maid Go!  Cheesy
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April 13, 2016, 08:43:12 PM
 #1660

ice i dont know your issue but wtf mate, MAID aiming for something good here...the fuck is your issue?  did u work for them and they fired you or some shit?  you obviously have issues.  if you fud at least do it on true shit coins from scam devs or something.  thus far MAID seems to have solid work (takes bloody long yes) but also bots/eyes on it with steady vol's at each major exch.  

not sure i guess you're in monero?  i've made money on that just like i hope to with maid, playing swings because monero is manipulated just as much (if not more).  and honestly i dont know much about it but it seems like nothing special to me.  well maybe something special about it but using it? lol fuck that...useless real world from what i see.  i wont be using MAID either unless they come thru, but anyway...they could use MORE updates here yes.

you need to go get a hooker or something and some crack, chill the fuck out.  i mean not sure if your fud is doing anything but whatever, cheap coins for some of us.  i dont think you're "holding it down" so i dont have to say "stop fudding you're killing my chances at making money" cos if/when MAID moons it'll be without you apparently.

I've got 3 issues.

1.  MAID is ancient Kad-based tech that still can't do what Freenet did 15 years ago, yet aspires to charge for the same services and presumed to collect IPO money for vaporware development.

2. MAID's old tech is being hyped by bolting on some trendy "MOAR BLOCKCHAIN" stuff via a Rube Goldberg layer of SafeCoin rigmarole.

3.  Inquires about issues 1 & 2 are met with hostility, speculation about motivations, personal attacks, and very little technical disclosure.

Now I've answered your question, please address one of mine.

Do you feel MAID is by default automatically due respect, or should it be forced to earn respect by demonstrated real-world utility?

maybe noone cares about the dated tech view when the basic outline provides something we like as is. personally i dont care what tech is being used and how dated it is. that says nothing. using old stuff in new ways is also innovation. and regardless, i like the structure of maidsafe and its roadmap for what it is. the rest does nothing for me. noone's hostile to you. i think just annoyed by your negative baseless assertions and your line of questioning.. personally i dont care for the answers to the questions ur asking.. so maybe you should just go have a chat with the dev like a mature adult would if they wanted to get the details. instead of making a big fuss on the forum like noone wants to talk to you and then creating that self fullfilling prophecy of noone wanting to talk to you. lol

u sound like such a whny panderer...

oh cry cry dont buy maid, hate it for the reason i hate it or dont believe in it".

i dont care bud. the reasons u hate maid or dont want to invest in it are all yours. i bought in at 15k again.... so you cry.. while i smile.. all the way to the bank.
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