[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[ranlo]

Really, though, we could ask the same thing about PoW. The only truly successful coin at this point is Bitcoin. It's not about how coins are earned or are generated; it's about the marketing. You could have a 100% premined coin with no PoW or PoS benefits, yet still bring it above and beyond Bitcoin. It's all about marketing and getting people to adopt it as a means of transfer.

Well, you'd probably want an example of such a 100% pre-mined coin (of which there is none yet).

Bitcoin is somewhat successful, imo. But it's too complicated for the average person to want. They have a "wow" factor to techies but not the average person.

But at least there is 1 example of a successful PoW coin

It has nothing to do with it being PoW, though. It has to do with it being the first one, being around MUCH longer than most of the other coins (by a factor of multiple years, which is huge) and has its place of dominance. PoW or PoS is irrelevant. If Bitcoin were a PoW/PoS hybrid, it'd still be where it is today.

Exactly.

As long as it was "good enough" to keep the Bitcoin network alive in 2009 and 2010, it would have survived.

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

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[kosmost]

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

It's likely that any system that potentially effects the number of coins in circulation would effect the economy. PoW, PoS, PoC, (premine), etc.

It's a large part of the reason you may not get high interest rates at your bank. The Federal Reserve (if you're in the US) wants you to spend money to grow the economy.

PoS is not only about security but also the economy.

[p4r4m0un7]

OK then, let's think of another way to secure the network. For the matter of discussion, let's say that I don't care if it is a PoS or something else. The PoS method is the only one that I am aware of. Other way, we will continue to argue what is most important - free opportunity or security. And you know there is no answer to this question. I don't quite understand the previous question, so I will answer that I am not aware of a coin that have migrated from PoW to PoS successfully and have good economy until now. I know 3-4 PoS coins with good economy. And after all you should consider that good economy has different meaning to different people.

P.S. About the FED. I am not sure that we will be able to become number 1 only with promises. Why doing all this great staff if it was possible? You have vision and ability to express it. Why not just posting 1 great post a day instead of bas____g your ba__s 18-19 hours a day?

[ranlo]

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

It's likely that any system that potentially effects the number of coins in circulation would effect the economy. PoW, PoS, PoC, (premine), etc.

It's a large part of the reason you may not get high interest rates at your bank. The Federal Reserve (if you're in the US) wants you to spend money to grow the economy.

PoS is not only about security but also the economy.

It may lower the price on a per-coin basis, but the market cap would remain the same, assuming the same overall cap is kept. Think about it like this:

There are 50 coins in circulation and there is $100 invested. Each coin is worth $2 and the market cap is $100.
PoS just boosted this coin count up to 2x. Now there are 100 coins and $100 invested. Each coin is worth $1 but the market cap is still $100.

The number of coins isn't going to affect the market cap; only the price per coin. Over time this would be the same regardless, assuming there is an overall cap.

[Alphi]

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

when you talk about security it is important to note that the only tried and tested technology is the PoW system implemented by Bitcoin..
every other system has not been around long enough... even exotic technological advancements in the PoW camp like X11, KGW, Digishield, Dark Send etc are not tried and tested over a long period of time so nobody knows for certain how successful or secure they will be.. We are all relying on theories of some very eccentric super braniacs to tell us what is secure and what isn't..

as far as PoS is concerned it has been around since Aug 2012 but even more recently in its 100% PoS form. PoS may or may not be more secure than PoW depending on how it is implemented. It has its own problems like the "Nothing at stake" attack and the hoarding/coin centralization problems.

An example of the coin centralization problem in PoS (ie too many coins in too few hands) can be seen quite clearly when you look at what happened to Ripples lab where the coin XRP has Dropped in value from a Market cap high of 600 Million down to 30 million.. that's a staggering 95% loss in value. now you can ask how did this happen.. well its quite simple.. when there aren't enough coins in circulation and most of them are controlled by a few people then its becomes iliquid and the price is artificially high. So much so that when just 1 or two people decide to leave the economy it collapses.

An example of this happening in the PoW camp.. is when Mt Gox shut down.. Another example of a PoW coin with too much centralizaion which could be artificially inflated is DRK (only time will tell)

Ultimately when it comes down to how successful coins are, as you have already stated, PoW vs PoS is quite irrelevant. I would argue that security wise, it is also not relevant because you are comparing apples to oranges.. swapping one problem with another.

if we look at the top coins by Market cap.. the entire Cryptocoin market is about 8.1 billion dollars. 7.9 billion of that is made up of just 2 PoW coins. compared that to the top 3 PoS enabled coins Ripple, PPC (PoW PoS hybrid) and NXT which make up for only 120 Million dollars in market cap.

Even without Bitcoin the top 3 PoW enabled coins still far outweigh the top 3 PoS coins in terms of market cap by an order of magnitude.
When we look at making fundamental changes to how our coin works (changes which could affect all of us if something goes wrong) we need to look at it from all angles.. not just which one is theoretically more "advanced" or theoretically more "secure".

In my view the biggest problem by far facing Karma is its excessively large coin supply and the centralization of the coins into a few early adopters hands.. this is why it is vitally important that we do not do anything to encourage further hoarding or increase rate of coin creation.

Karma coin supply is currently 53,752,974,065 KARM and will Max out at 92 billion over its lifetime.. (most of that being mined this year)

If today Karma switched to a PoS with 10% interest per annum we would reach 95 billion coins by 2020 and by 2025 we would have 153 billion coins in circulation and by 2030 that number would rise to a staggering 247 billion coins.

This means that any switch to PoS will require an interest rate much less than that (probably closer to 2% per annum matching the target inflation rate that the US and EU)

now with an Interest rate of around 2% per annum .. the argument that people make that PoS will stop the dumping and encourage people to invest in Karma simply evaporates. In Crypto-land where speculation is rife and people are expecting ridiculously high returns, even 10% per year would still not be enough to encourage people to hold Karma and 10% per year would all but destroy Karma in the long run.

so in summary it is my firm view that any switch to PoS would not resolve the biggest challenges that Karma faces and that is why I don't support the PoS change proposal.

[kosmost]

OK then, let's think of another way to secure the network. For the matter of discussion, let's say that I don't care if it is a PoS or something else. The PoS method is the only one that I am aware of. Other way, we will continue to argue what is most important - free opportunity or security. And you know there is no answer to this question. I don't quite understand the previous question, so I will answer that I am not aware of a coin that have migrated from PoW to PoS successfully and have good economy until now. I know 3-4 PoS coins with good economy. And after all you should consider that good economy has different meaning to different people.

Regardless of method, I suppose that would be through hashing power as evidenced by Bitcoin.

In addition to wanting to reward our community, a stronger network was the primary reason we did Karmashares (as I stated several times when announcing PoC)

Perhaps few remember when the hash rate dropped down to 69 Mh/s a few days before announcing Karmashares.

Greater interest in Karma (helped by Karmashares) will also help to secure our network. (Of course, no one is implying that PoW, PoS, etc., is no longer important because of Karmashares)

P.S. About the FED. I am not sure that we will be able to become number 1 only with promises. Why doing all this great staff if it was possible? You have vision and ability to express it. Why not just posting 1 great post a day instead of bas____g your ba__s 18-19 hours a day?

Sorry. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

If you are suggesting that I limit my posts to 1 per day then I can only say that I am the best person to manage my own time. I tend to post as many as I would like to post, as I'm sure anyone would do. Some are "thank yous", some are asking for feedback, some are just picking my nose, some are profound, some are stupid, and some are replies to confusing statements.

But even when I am sick with the flu or posting meaningless stuff I can still get a lot done for Karma. In fact, while I was replying to your message just now I discovered a cure for diabetes!

If you'd like to help out instead of just posting here please come to the new forums. Bitcointalk is full of promises, but we're doing actual work now (obviously). We can even add you to the team. The more you can help, the better.

[ranlo]

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

when you talk about security it is important to note that the only tried and tested technology is the PoW system implemented by Bitcoin..
every other system has not been around long enough... even exotic technological advancements in the PoW camp like X11, KGW, Digishield, Dark Send etc are not tried and tested over a long period of time so nobody knows for certain how successful or secure they will be.. We are all relying on theories of some very eccentric super braniacs to tell us what is secure and what isn't..

as far as PoS is concerned it has been around since Aug 2012 but even more recently in its 100% PoS form. PoS may or may not be more secure than PoW depending on how it is implemented. It has its own problems like the "Nothing at stake" attack and the hoarding/coin centralization problems.

An example of the coin centralization problem in PoS (ie too many coins in too few hands) can be seen quite clearly when you look at what happened to Ripples lab where the coin XRP has Dropped in value from a Market cap high of 600 Million down to 30 million.. that's a staggering 95% loss in value. now you can ask how did this happen.. well its quite simple.. when there aren't enough coins in circulation and most of them are controlled by a few people then its becomes iliquid and the price is artificially high. So much so that when just 1 or two people decide to leave the economy it collapses.

An example of this happening in the PoW camp.. is when Mt Gox shut down.. Another example of a PoW coin with too much centralizaion which could be artificially inflated is DRK (only time will tell)

Ultimately when it comes down to how successful coins are, as you have already stated, PoW vs PoS is quite irrelevant. I would argue that security wise, it is also not relevant because you are comparing apples to oranges.. swapping one problem with another.

if we look at the top coins by Market cap.. the entire Cryptocoin market is about 8.1 billion dollars. 7.9 billion of that is made up of just 2 PoW coins. compared that to the top 3 PoS enabled coins Ripple, PPC (PoW PoS hybrid) and NXT which make up for only 120 Million dollars in market cap.

Even without Bitcoin the top 3 PoW enabled coins still far outweigh the top 3 PoS coins in terms of market cap by an order of magnitude.
When we look at making fundamental changes to how our coin works (changes which could affect all of us if something goes wrong) we need to look at it from all angles.. not just which one is theoretically more "advanced" or theoretically more "secure".

In my view the biggest problem by far facing Karma is its excessively large coin supply and the centralization of the coins into a few early adopters hands.. this is why it is vitally important that we do not do anything to encourage further hoarding or increase rate of coin creation.

Karma coin supply is currently 53,752,974,065 KARM and will Max out at 92 billion over its lifetime.. (most of that being mined this year)

If today Karma switched to a PoS with 10% interest per annum we would reach 95 billion coins by 2020 and by 2025 we would have 153 billion coins in circulation and by 2030 that number would rise to a staggering 247 billion coins.

This means that any switch to PoS will require an interest rate much less than that (probably closer to 2% per annum matching the target inflation rate that the US and EU)

now with an Interest rate of around 2% per annum .. the argument that people make that PoS will stop the dumping and encourage people to invest in Karma simply evaporates. In Crypto-land where speculation is rife and people are expecting ridiculously high returns, even 10% per year would still not be enough to encourage people to hold Karma and 10% per year would all but destroy Karma in the long run.

so in summary it is my firm view that any switch to PoS would not resolve the biggest challenges that Karma faces and that is why I don't support the PoS change proposal.

I follow you to a point. Even Bitcoin is still experimental though.

As for the coin creation, you can set a cap, such that x amount will ever be created. Adding in PoS speeds up the creation speed, not the overall number.

This is definitely a tough thing to consider, because there are just so many variables. Most coins have been moving over to the PoS arena, though, and to me there has to be a reason.

[kosmost]

You confuse me when you ask why PoS would help a coin's economy though. PoS/PoW/Premine/etc. have nothing to do with the economy; they have to do with security. Bitcoin has a high enough hash rate behind it that the security really isn't an issue (unless a government decided to crash it). KARMA, on the other hand, could benefit from the security, since it's more vulnerable. But this has nothing to do with the economy and it has nothing to do with the price. You can have the most secure coin ever and it have 0 value, or you can have the least secure one and it be worth billions.

when you talk about security it is important to note that the only tried and tested technology is the PoW system implemented by Bitcoin..
every other system has not been around long enough... even exotic technological advancements in the PoW camp like X11, KGW, Digishield, Dark Send etc are not tried and tested over a long period of time so nobody knows for certain how successful or secure they will be.. We are all relying on theories of some very eccentric super braniacs to tell us what is secure and what isn't..

as far as PoS is concerned it has been around since Aug 2012 but even more recently in its 100% PoS form. PoS may or may not be more secure than PoW depending on how it is implemented. It has its own problems like the "Nothing at stake" attack and the hoarding/coin centralization problems.

An example of the coin centralization problem in PoS (ie too many coins in too few hands) can be seen quite clearly when you look at what happened to Ripples lab where the coin XRP has Dropped in value from a Market cap high of 600 Million down to 30 million.. that's a staggering 95% loss in value. now you can ask how did this happen.. well its quite simple.. when there aren't enough coins in circulation and most of them are controlled by a few people then its becomes iliquid and the price is artificially high. So much so that when just 1 or two people decide to leave the economy it collapses.

An example of this happening in the PoW camp.. is when Mt Gox shut down.. Another example of a PoW coin with too much centralizaion which could be artificially inflated is DRK (only time will tell)

Ultimately when it comes down to how successful coins are, as you have already stated, PoW vs PoS is quite irrelevant. I would argue that security wise, it is also not relevant because you are comparing apples to oranges.. swapping one problem with another.

if we look at the top coins by Market cap.. the entire Cryptocoin market is about 8.1 billion dollars. 7.9 billion of that is made up of just 2 PoW coins. compared that to the top 3 PoS enabled coins Ripple, PPC (PoW PoS hybrid) and NXT which make up for only 120 Million dollars in market cap.

Even without Bitcoin the top 3 PoW enabled coins still far outweigh the top 3 PoS coins in terms of market cap by an order of magnitude.
When we look at making fundamental changes to how our coin works (changes which could affect all of us if something goes wrong) we need to look at it from all angles.. not just which one is theoretically more "advanced" or theoretically more "secure".

In my view the biggest problem by far facing Karma is its excessively large coin supply and the centralization of the coins into a few early adopters hands.. this is why it is vitally important that we do not do anything to encourage further hoarding or increase rate of coin creation.

Karma coin supply is currently 53,752,974,065 KARM and will Max out at 92 billion over its lifetime.. (most of that being mined this year)

If today Karma switched to a PoS with 10% interest per annum we would reach 95 billion coins by 2020 and by 2025 we would have 153 billion coins in circulation and by 2030 that number would rise to a staggering 247 billion coins.

This means that any switch to PoS will require an interest rate much less than that (probably closer to 2% per annum matching the target inflation rate that the US and EU)

now with an Interest rate of around 2% per annum .. the argument that people make that PoS will stop the dumping and encourage people to invest in Karma simply evaporates. In Crypto-land where speculation is rife and people are expecting ridiculously high returns, even 10% per year would still not be enough to encourage people to hold Karma and 10% per year would all but destroy Karma in the long run.

so in summary it is my firm view that any switch to PoS would not resolve the biggest challenges that Karma faces and that is why I don't support the PoS change proposal.

Good points. I had no idea Ripples was PoS. I've always just ignored them.

[kosmost]

[snips] Most coins have been moving over to the PoS arena, though, and to me there has to be a reason.

There are more coins overall, a great number of which are not PoS (but not most). Please refer to http://altcoinherald.com/altcoin-launch-calendar/

(Granite Coin, launched recently, is even adveritising "No PoS". I'm not pointing this out to say PoS is bad, because it's not inherently bad. But to provide the other side of the coin to your statement that "most are moving over")

But even if "most" were, it would not imply that a good reason is had.

Karma would sooner hire a security professional and an economist to consult on this than to follow other coins (mostly worthless and with no plans for the future) because some coins are doing it.

Some coins would always be doing something, but it doesn't mean that something is good for them (or us).

We are not followers but leaders. And leaders research, think, plan, and strategize in order to create a prosperous (or at least favorable) future.

[Alphi]

Good points. I had no idea Ripples was PoS. I've always just ignored them.

well its not strictly PoS as in using the same code base as PPC the (grandfather of PoS) but then again I don't think NXT is either.. NXT and Ripple are entirely rewritten from the ground up coins as far as I understand it.

but XRP is a currency centrally owned and managed by its stakeholders. Trusted gateways are run by people who have large amounts of XRP so in that sense  it is more comparable to PoS than PoW because stakeholders control the money flow.

if we talk about strictly 100% PoS systems then Blackcoin would probably be the largest and its at a measly 11 million market cap. (Novacoin and PPC are both hybrid coins as far as I understand it but unless you go trawling through message threads its very hard to figure out exactly what each coin is and where it came from)


here is an incomplete list of PoS coins
one thing to note is that a lot of those coins are actually at the bottom of the coin market cap list (along with many PoW coins that did not have strong communities and dev teams)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=458726.0

[Alphi]

But even if "most" were, it would not imply that a good reason is had.

I agree.. back in 2001 "most" people thought attacking Iraq and Afghanistan was a good idea too...
trillions of dollars and countless lives later, not such a good idea after all... and I can't even comprehend a trillion dollars..

[Alphi]

I follow you to a point. Even Bitcoin is still experimental though.

As for the coin creation, you can set a cap, such that x amount will ever be created. Adding in PoS speeds up the creation speed, not the overall number.

This is definitely a tough thing to consider, because there are just so many variables. Most coins have been moving over to the PoS arena, though, and to me there has to be a reason.

I agree with you there, all coins (including BTC) are an experiment, so the best thing to do is go with the strongest one from each bunch if you are looking for a long term investment.
I've learnt a lot just by arguing with people and researching my points.. and I'm still learning....
there is a lot of paradigm shifting that ones brain has to do to even grasp the basics of how each new innovative coin idea works and so I don't think anyone has the right answer, not even satoshi nakamoto.
but as long as it is better than the current broken and corrupt fiat system then count me in...

[kosmost]

I follow you to a point. Even Bitcoin is still experimental though.

As for the coin creation, you can set a cap, such that x amount will ever be created. Adding in PoS speeds up the creation speed, not the overall number.

This is definitely a tough thing to consider, because there are just so many variables. Most coins have been moving over to the PoS arena, though, and to me there has to be a reason.

I agree with you there, all coins (including BTC) are an experiment, so the best thing to do is go with the strongest one from each bunch if you are looking for a long term investment.
I've learnt a lot just by arguing with people and researching my points.. and I'm still learning....
there is a lot of paradigm shifting that ones brain has to do to even grasp the basics of how each new innovative coin idea works and so I don't think anyone has the right answer, not even satoshi nakamoto.
but as long as it is better than the current broken and corrupt fiat system then count me in...

Yeah, and I'm sure some of us don't remember that you used to argue for PoS.

[Alphi]

I follow you to a point. Even Bitcoin is still experimental though.

As for the coin creation, you can set a cap, such that x amount will ever be created. Adding in PoS speeds up the creation speed, not the overall number.

This is definitely a tough thing to consider, because there are just so many variables. Most coins have been moving over to the PoS arena, though, and to me there has to be a reason.

I agree with you there, all coins (including BTC) are an experiment, so the best thing to do is go with the strongest one from each bunch if you are looking for a long term investment.
I've learnt a lot just by arguing with people and researching my points.. and I'm still learning....
there is a lot of paradigm shifting that ones brain has to do to even grasp the basics of how each new innovative coin idea works and so I don't think anyone has the right answer, not even satoshi nakamoto.
but as long as it is better than the current broken and corrupt fiat system then count me in...

Yeah, and I'm sure some of us don't remember that you used to argue for PoS.

who me? if anything my position has changed from being fundamentally against PoS to accepting that it does have some merit. In any case, I still don't see PoS as the solution to the biggest issues facing Karma.. I sure would like to see a post where I've been pushing for a change to PoS on any coin thread...

[kosmost]

who me? if anything my position has changed from being fundamentally against PoS to accepting that it does have some merit. In any case, I still don't see PoS as the solution to the biggest issues facing Karma.. I sure would like to see a post where I've been pushing for a change to PoS on any coin thread...

It was learnminer. Apologies.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg6435617#msg6435617

[Alphi]

who me? if anything my position has changed from being fundamentally against PoS to accepting that it does have some merit. In any case, I still don't see PoS as the solution to the biggest issues facing Karma.. I sure would like to see a post where I've been pushing for a change to PoS on any coin thread...

It was learnminer. Apologies.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=579973.msg6435617#msg6435617

its all good

[kosmost]

Announcing the Karmashares elections

Over the next few days we will elect our management and Board of Directors. You can help to lead Karmashares to success!

Per this post regarding the organizational structure of Karmashares, we're pleased to announce the formation of the following workgroups:

• Operations
• Technology
• Marketing & PR
• Charities & Causes
• Community

Think you could help lead a workgroup? Post to the workgroup about how you think you can and defail your plans, ideas, etc. Some background may also help.

Each workgroup leader will also serve as a member on the Board of Directors for Karmashares.

The Chairperson of the Board is also to be voted on here.

You can find the workgroups here

Good luck! Voting will start next week.

[cryptowho]

my thoughts on some of these convos:

One of the reason Bitcoin is supreme is because the POW. Not only is POW a strong future for bitcoin but it open doors to all the other cryptocoins. Lite coin was formed because miners were being cheated out by botnet and investors who could afford bigger asic. After litecoin,   the other coins came because Litecoin difficulty skyrocket.

The reason why mining is important is because all you have to do is buy a mining rig and mine coins. This is the safest way for people. Not everyone will send documents and wait a month for exchanges to prove them into their systems. Not a lot of people even know where to go to buy coins. But Mining POW there are 1000 tutorials and withing few days you are mining away. with in two days you are making some tiny bitcoins/litecoin. Then through mining, they learn the trading game and then become buyers.

One of the strongest case is that there will always be tons of people trying to mine bitcoin for years, hence there will always be demand. POW algo beat the other algo coin in 2011 and become the bitcoin that it is today. Only because people were able to mine it. Even now people invest thousands of money into mining material.

So think hard before you slam POW.


And now to POS.

At first i was rooting for POS. But that was when we were thinking about cutting down the total cap size of 92 billion coins. After some back and forth conversation between members and team members (specially KOS) my opinion was changed and i know i understand that staying loyal to the old code is the key. Because not only is POW the answer to our success, but also the ability where people can come in now and mine some decent chunks of coins. And it will stay this way. Other coins that shared our total cap levels in billions , fear this feature and have moved to cut it down so they can stop the bleeding. they might have seen a small bump in price but eventually they will fall. Opposite to them is our coins. Our coin had/has difficulty now but then it will be the opposite and it will rise. Because, not only can people jump into our ship easily via mining(POW), but our block rewards will be good enough that all of them will get a nice payday. How finds it appealing to mien all day for 0.01 of that coin. The answer to staying alive long enough for us to BUILD PART D is in the miners. It is in the ability for anyone to jump right into our coin. no security checks, no shipping out ids, no worry about shady btc trader in the real world. Simple point your miners and you are in. We can see that all the coins that are already mined out , slowly but surely are crashing down. The moment they loose the miners they also loose the buyers. as most of the buyers are miners themselves.

So POS? First things first. We would be POW and POS. Not only POS. therefore we would have to have double buy support for the all the new coins mined and new coins staked. moving on, Since we have agreed that 92 billion coins is the answer,

What percentage can POS be?

 If we give POS at %10-30 our coin will be dead. We have too many coins and such a high % will just be too hard to raise in price since it will be a constant POW and POS new coins released. We would have to have double of POW buying volume. Ideally this would be good with the previous point that people will have it much easier to get the coins since it will be so many of them and the prices would be low enough that anyone can owns some with some small $$ buy.  But it would take 20-30 years before we reach this buying support . but we most likely will be dead as a coin and never reach optimum level.

More a reasonable POS percentage would be %2-3 yearly. This is low enough that the new stake coins will not create alot of sell stress and it would be easy supported by by volume. But then we need to step outside the box and look  at the box and try to imagine how it will behave.  Let say 1 year from now you were a good karmanian and held to your coins and are a bag holder of 200mill coins. at %2 , in the end of next year you will receive a sum total of 4 million more coins. This would be awesome for you. because hopefully by them karma has some sweet price of 3000 satoshis [ ] and you just made an extra 120 btc. great! but what if we are an average holder of 1,200,000 Karma. by the end of the year you stake 24,000 extra coins. Now imagine holders on the lower class then average holders.

When these class of average or lower coin holders stake , it will not be a huge chump and depending on the stake maturity settings the POS code will have, it would come in small , very non impressive , tiny fraction of coins a day/week. That will look demoralizing and it will not encourage any one of the average class or lower to open their wallets to stake are they should. This could create a very serious network instability and could cause %51 attack on POS network. Because only the big bag holder will be inclined to make sure their wallet is opened every day to stake. Since POS purpose is to have wallets to stay open so the network can stay stronger , this future paths would created a lot of forks and possible multiple double spending. Not to scare you will %51 attacks or double spending. even if this never happens, what probably might happen is that all the average and lower class will start selling their coins and moving on to a coin that will give them a better distribution.

trust me. i am staking a few coins and there is nothing exciting than to see a + 0.03 coin staked after waiting coins maturity. not to mention all this low stakes will bloat the block chain.

My point about POS?
Well, i want to put some people at rest that adding such feature will only create a small hype but it will not be the "feature" that will get this coin to 100 satoshis. most of the hype will ride for about 7 days and then it will come back down to the current floor + 1-2 numbers higher. I want to also remind you again that adding POS will not be removing POW and POW will still be the strongest feature of our coin. Therefore, is POS an additional feature that we need right now? Why? How do you think it will help the coin become stronger. Do you agree that adding POS we would have one more "algo" to worry about its network security. Do you understand that even if we have a stable POS we would still have to worry about POW security from ASICs. Is %2-3 POS stake a year really worth adding one more network that we have to worry about %51 or double spending?


I feel like people are asking for us to go POS , not because they have really thought it out and have come to conclusion that it will bring new security to our coin , but because they have seen from other coins that adding POS has increased the coins price.

As i said before. if we were to cut the coins total POW at 50 billion and then do the other 32 billion in POS only , i would have voted for POS. and DID! however, since we keeping POW continuously for year to work until we reach our cap, then POS will have to be very, very low in percentage, making it kinda pointless to add compared with all the new risk and effort to main it.


well , my 0.2 karma about POW and POS!


The real solution in our coins lies in adaptation, not the code. We already have a beautiful scrypt algo code. it moves one coin from one side of the world to the other. We don't we stop looking at the code and expecting it to make us millionaires and create systems that the code can be used for.

lets re-focus the momentum back into our goals. lets continue to create that awesome and very strong network that the karma team is working hard to build. A network with many , many members who come together and help those in need. I still can't wait until we are so big in numbers that each member will only be asked to donate $0.10 to fulfill the necessary quotas. One click away. only ten cents. cryprocurrency allows us to send this amount to go fully to the address with no middle man becoming rich with fee! Lets not miss this great opportunity by focusing on how to hype and dump.

Cryptowho.

[ShawnLeary]

Announcing the Karmashares elections

Over the next few days we will elect our management and Board of Directors. You can help to lead Karmashares to success!

Per this post regarding the organizational structure of Karmashares, we're pleased to announce the formation of the following workgroups:

• Operations
• Technology
• Marketing & PR
• Charities & Causes
• Community

Think you could help lead a workgroup? Post to the workgroup about how you think you can and defail your plans, ideas, etc. Some background may also help.

Each workgroup leader will also serve as a member on the Board of Directors for Karmashares.

The Chairperson of the Board is also to be voted on here.

You can find the workgroups here

Good luck! Voting will start next week.

[cryptowho]

Announcing the Karmashares elections

Over the next few days we will elect our management and Board of Directors. You can help to lead Karmashares to success!

Per this post regarding the organizational structure of Karmashares, we're pleased to announce the formation of the following workgroups:

• Operations
• Technology
• Marketing & PR
• Charities & Causes
• Community

Think you could help lead a workgroup? Post to the workgroup about how you think you can and defail your plans, ideas, etc. Some background may also help.

Each workgroup leader will also serve as a member on the Board of Directors for Karmashares.

The Chairperson of the Board is also to be voted on here.

You can find the workgroups here

Good luck! Voting will start next week.