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Author Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11  (Read 564178 times)
ptman
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July 29, 2014, 07:25:35 PM
 #3841

What happens if someone has a lot of KARMA in your wallet, but ... I do not read every day topic here or the official forum??? Most likely you will lose everything just because your wallet is updated and because there is time and opportunity to read the time.
Given the switch to X11 each algorithm must be upgraded wallet? But not everyone will do it, because there is time and opportunity to follow the latest news. What can we do to get notice of an upcoming update to the new wallet to an investor??
To implement a function similar to many programs that communicate which version is the wallet and the date of creation. Whenever there is a mandatory or recommended a new update, the trigger function will report wallet for the new update.
In this way everyone will know that you need to update! It's important to make before moving to X11 to no then ... oh dear mother!
Please comment and whether the idea is applicable!
Greetings!

You will not lose any coin if you forget about karma even for 1 year in your old wallet software.
What happens is that transactions done with the old wallet software after 31 July will not be valid.

Everyone should update to the new wallet software before they perform some operation in the network (e.g. send Karma to someone).

It is just a good practise to do it as soon as possible, so that you will not forget do do it.

Sorry, but.....http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,504.msg2722.html#msg2722

It says:  You can download and use this now. No need to wait for block 255,000. You must install this before July 31, 2014. Otherwise you may lose your Karma.

Yes, you can and should download it now.

About losing your coins...
That is the worst possible case (and not likely) if you use the old wallet after 31 July.
I do not even know if that is possible...

What would most likely happen would be that the network would invalidade transaction made with the old wallet.
(please correct me if I'm wrong)

I did it long ago, but ... I say, because I read! There are people who do not have the time or opportunity.
Please DEV to discuss with the team that I think a good idea and if it is possible to implement it in the next update of the wallet. Thank you!

If there is a decentralized way to do this, i.e. inform the users through some message inside the wallet that there is new update that is mandatory, then I'm for it.
Otherwise I'm against it, because it opens the network to hackers that by attacking the centralized server (that informs wallets about the new version) can lure most users to install rogue (made by the hackers) wallets.
To allow that to happen would be a very bad decision.

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DStefanov
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July 29, 2014, 07:30:30 PM
 #3842

What happens if someone has a lot of KARMA in your wallet, but ... I do not read every day topic here or the official forum??? Most likely you will lose everything just because your wallet is updated and because there is time and opportunity to read the time.
Given the switch to X11 each algorithm must be upgraded wallet? But not everyone will do it, because there is time and opportunity to follow the latest news. What can we do to get notice of an upcoming update to the new wallet to an investor??
To implement a function similar to many programs that communicate which version is the wallet and the date of creation. Whenever there is a mandatory or recommended a new update, the trigger function will report wallet for the new update.
In this way everyone will know that you need to update! It's important to make before moving to X11 to no then ... oh dear mother!
Please comment and whether the idea is applicable!
Greetings!

You will not lose any coin if you forget about karma even for 1 year in your old wallet software.
What happens is that transactions done with the old wallet software after 31 July will not be valid.

Everyone should update to the new wallet software before they perform some operation in the network (e.g. send Karma to someone).

It is just a good practise to do it as soon as possible, so that you will not forget do do it.

Sorry, but.....http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,504.msg2722.html#msg2722

It says:  You can download and use this now. No need to wait for block 255,000. You must install this before July 31, 2014. Otherwise you may lose your Karma.

Yes, you can and should download it now.

About losing your coins...
That is the worst possible case (and not likely) if you use the old wallet after 31 July.
I do not even know if that is possible...

What would most likely happen would be that the network would invalidade transaction made with the old wallet.
(please correct me if I'm wrong)

I did it long ago, but ... I say, because I read! There are people who do not have the time or opportunity.
Please DEV to discuss with the team that I think a good idea and if it is possible to implement it in the next update of the wallet. Thank you!

If there is a decentralized way to do this, i.e. inform the users through some message inside the wallet that there is new update that is mandatory, then I'm for it.
Otherwise I'm against it, because it opens the network to hackers that by attacking the centralized server (that informs wallets about the new version) can lure most users to install rogue (made by the hackers) wallets.
To allow that to happen would be a very bad decision.

That's what I'm talking about! Message green that has a recommended update and red, it is a must!  Wink

KTN for All! 17cQd5R5AF7hK2xTWrKv3jE6nNWcJMvuQM
bitwho
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July 29, 2014, 07:33:26 PM
 #3843

What happens if someone has a lot of KARMA in your wallet, but ... I do not read every day topic here or the official forum??? Most likely you will lose everything just because your wallet is updated and because there is time and opportunity to read the time.
Given the switch to X11 each algorithm must be upgraded wallet? But not everyone will do it, because there is time and opportunity to follow the latest news. What can we do to get notice of an upcoming update to the new wallet to an investor??
To implement a function similar to many programs that communicate which version is the wallet and the date of creation. Whenever there is a mandatory or recommended a new update, the trigger function will report wallet for the new update.
In this way everyone will know that you need to update! It's important to make before moving to X11 to no then ... oh dear mother!
Please comment and whether the idea is applicable!
Greetings!

You will not lose any coin if you forget about karma even for 1 year in your old wallet software.
What happens is that transactions done with the old wallet software after 31 July will not be valid.

Everyone should update to the new wallet software before they perform some operation in the network (e.g. send Karma to someone).

It is just a good practise to do it as soon as possible, so that you will not forget do do it.

Sorry, but.....http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,504.msg2722.html#msg2722

It says:  You can download and use this now. No need to wait for block 255,000. You must install this before July 31, 2014. Otherwise you may lose your Karma.

Yes, you can and should download it now.

About losing your coins...
That is the worst possible case (and not likely) if you use the old wallet after 31 July.
I do not even know if that is possible...

What would most likely happen would be that the network would invalidade transaction made with the old wallet.
(please correct me if I'm wrong)

I did it long ago, but ... I say, because I read! There are people who do not have the time or opportunity.
Please DEV to discuss with the team that I think a good idea and if it is possible to implement it in the next update of the wallet. Thank you!

thank you for being concern. the new wallet already for update have alert msgs where we can let others know its time to update!
As far as the statement that you might loose coins it is just to be safe. Everyone's coins should be safe. No mater when you update your wallet QT your wallet.dat "never" changes and your coins will be safe!!

your coins are in your wallet.dat file and the wallet.dat file get recognized by the blockchain or karmacoind. All the wallet Qt do is make it user friendly to use karmacoind and wallet.dat

everyone should be safe. thats is why we had to use the best guy to help us fork the easiest method possible for our users. all you have to do is download new wallet. thats it

cheers

-who
ptman
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July 29, 2014, 07:33:45 PM
 #3844

What happens if someone has a lot of KARMA in your wallet, but ... I do not read every day topic here or the official forum??? Most likely you will lose everything just because your wallet is updated and because there is time and opportunity to read the time.
Given the switch to X11 each algorithm must be upgraded wallet? But not everyone will do it, because there is time and opportunity to follow the latest news. What can we do to get notice of an upcoming update to the new wallet to an investor??
To implement a function similar to many programs that communicate which version is the wallet and the date of creation. Whenever there is a mandatory or recommended a new update, the trigger function will report wallet for the new update.
In this way everyone will know that you need to update! It's important to make before moving to X11 to no then ... oh dear mother!
Please comment and whether the idea is applicable!
Greetings!

You will not lose any coin if you forget about karma even for 1 year in your old wallet software.
What happens is that transactions done with the old wallet software after 31 July will not be valid.

Everyone should update to the new wallet software before they perform some operation in the network (e.g. send Karma to someone).

It is just a good practise to do it as soon as possible, so that you will not forget do do it.

Sorry, but.....http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php/topic,504.msg2722.html#msg2722

It says:  You can download and use this now. No need to wait for block 255,000. You must install this before July 31, 2014. Otherwise you may lose your Karma.

Yes, you can and should download it now.

About losing your coins...
That is the worst possible case (and not likely) if you use the old wallet after 31 July.
I do not even know if that is possible...

What would most likely happen would be that the network would invalidade transaction made with the old wallet.
(please correct me if I'm wrong)

I did it long ago, but ... I say, because I read! There are people who do not have the time or opportunity.
Please DEV to discuss with the team that I think a good idea and if it is possible to implement it in the next update of the wallet. Thank you!

If there is a decentralized way to do this, i.e. inform the users through some message inside the wallet that there is new update that is mandatory, then I'm for it.
Otherwise I'm against it, because it opens the network to hackers that by attacking the centralized server (that informs wallets about the new version) can lure most users to install rogue (made by the hackers) wallets.
To allow that to happen would be a very bad decision.

That's what I'm talking about! Message green that has a recommended update and red, it is a must!  Wink

That would be nice.
Green for recommended and red for mandatory Wink

Now we need to think about how to implement this (has this already been done in other coins?).

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ptman
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July 29, 2014, 07:36:47 PM
 #3845

thank you for being concern. the new wallet already for update have alert msgs where we can let others know its time to update!

Perfect!

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DStefanov
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July 29, 2014, 07:38:50 PM
 #3846

thank you for being concern. the new wallet already for update have alert msgs where we can let others know its time to update!

Perfect!

You are great!

KTN for All! 17cQd5R5AF7hK2xTWrKv3jE6nNWcJMvuQM
bitwho
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July 29, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
 #3847

What about exchanges? Can I just leave on balance and It will be OK?

Depends on how competent are the guys behind the exchange.

I would not trust them my coins until they migrate to the new wallets.
But that is way I'm...

Migrating your coins to a local wallet (running on your computer) makes much more sense to me.
Just make sure you are running the new wallet (0.8.6.5).


mintpal and cryptsy have confirmed that they are aware of us forking and will be prepared.

to be %100 safe you should always be in control of your own coins.

not to spread fear, if you have no other options but leave your coin in the exchange then you should be okay too.

if you have no means to sell/trade your coins anytime soon my personal advice would be to move your coins in your wallet anytime a hard fork is being executed

cheers

-Who
ptman
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July 29, 2014, 07:43:11 PM
 #3848

mintpal and cryptsy have confirmed that they are aware of us forking and will be prepared.

to be %100 safe you should always be in control of your own coins.

not to spread fear, if you have no other options but leave your coin in the exchange then you should be okay too.

if you have no means to sell/trade your coins anytime soon my personal advice would be to move your coins in your wallet anytime a hard fork is being executed

cheers

-Who

I would even say to use exchanges just to buy/sell and move your coins to your encrypted wallet as soon as possible.

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Alphi
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July 29, 2014, 07:55:07 PM
 #3849

What happens if someone has a lot of KARMA in your wallet, but ... I do not read every day topic here or the official forum??? Most likely you will lose everything just because your wallet is updated and because there is time and opportunity to read the time.
Given the switch to X11 each algorithm must be upgraded wallet? But not everyone will do it, because there is time and opportunity to follow the latest news. What can we do to get notice of an upcoming update to the new wallet to an investor??
To implement a function similar to many programs that communicate which version is the wallet and the date of creation. Whenever there is a mandatory or recommended a new update, the trigger function will report wallet for the new update.
In this way everyone will know that you need to update! It's important to make before moving to X11 to no then ... oh dear mother!
Please comment and whether the idea is applicable!
Greetings!

you cant lose any money just because you didn't update your wallet.
the only thing that will happen is that you cannot transfer any money (KARM) until you update your wallet.

that is of course provided the majority of the users move onto the new wallet.. which they should do.

this is why it is not really necessary to have any kind of mass messaging to tell everyone to change.. because as soon as they discover their wallet cannot send coins.. they usually update their wallet...

well that's what smart people do.. of course there are newbies who will come onto the forums and complain that their wallet stopped working before even bothering to check if they have the latest wallet..

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
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July 29, 2014, 07:56:41 PM
 #3850

anyone else excited we are so close to moving to x11 algo?


my gpus cant wait Tongue
ptman
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July 29, 2014, 08:55:26 PM
 #3851

anyone else excited we are so close to moving to x11 algo?


my gpus cant wait Tongue

What kind of GPUs are you using?

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kosmost
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July 29, 2014, 09:23:12 PM
 #3852

To elaborate on the above re exchanges trading Karma against BTC in sets of 1000.

Exchanges: Price Karma in lots of 1,000 in Bitcoin


What does this mean?

Instead of Karma being put on the market as a single Karma it could be sold in sets of 1,000. This still means you can sell units of 0.00001 Karma, just not 0.00000001 Karma.

This is very distinct from decreasing the number of Karma via a hard fork although it has the same advantages and could be done around the same time without actually having to change the amount of Karma in existence.

The 0.00001 Karma (being the minimum tradable fraction) of Karma under the proposed change is worth approximately $0.0000000015USD at today’s market rates.

When I last checked there was an actual minimum limit on Mintpal for Karma sales of around 10,000 Karma however this may be based on price and could be there as a transaction spam / exchange fee avoidance countermeasure.

Basically instead of exchanges listing Karma for sale as follows:
Amount: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Price per Karm: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Total: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)

It would be:
Amount: 0.00000 (limit 5 decimal places)
Price per 1,000 Karma: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Total: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)

Under sell orders/buy orders this would change from:
Price (BTC) / Karm / BTC
To:
Price per 1,000 Karma (BTC) / Karma / BTC

The amount of Karma displayed in accounts should be kept the same.

Why the change?

As at the time of writing this 1 Karma is selling for 0.00000002 to 0.00000003 Bitcoins. The smallest fraction of a Bitcoin is called a Satoshi. Karma is trading at 2 to 3 Satoshi. This means theoretically, on the spread, you can either sell your Karma then rebuy 50% more or you can buy Karma and then sell it for 50% more or similar. This will occur no matter the price of Karma, just as the price goes up the margins will get slimmer as the market becomes more granular, ie the difference between prices is less. Even at 40 to 41 Satoshi there is a margin of 2.5%, roughly 10 times more than the exchanges themselves take.

This isn’t healthy for the market. The only way these orders can work is if the price is stable enough for you to both complete your sell order and your rebuy order.

This encourages people to attempt to lock in Karma between a certain price range and also encourages the creation of wall. This is because some people may be putting up a sale expecting that they can then rebuy at a fraction of the price, which may even be on alternate market, for example a Litecoin market.

When price movement is hampered there is less volume in the markets and less interest in Karma.

Benefits of change, buyers/sellers:
Can buy or sell higher at market rates without having to either “wait in line” or sell at far less than it would cost to buy or vice versa.

Benefits of change for exchanges:
More market activity caused by the change means more turn over and more exchange fees.

As one of the first adopters, your exchange will both have Karma for sale at cheaper rates and people will be able to sell Karma for more. This will increase volume on your market for people that want to trade at market rates and not have to wait “in line” for their trade to be executed a decent price.

Implementing the change may be subsidised by the Karma community.

Limitations to current countermeasures to the problem:
Under the current system alternate markets (primarily Litecoin) are being used to trade Karma at a more granular rate while the price is being locked in on the Bitcoin market.

However, this is considered by many to be an inconvenience and still only offers limited protection against sell and buy walls that form on the Bitcoin market.

Suggested implementation for exchanges:
1. Make the relevant notices to customers;
2. Suspend trading on the Karma/BTC market;
3. Back up data;
4. Make the relevant changes to the displays on the market order page;
5. Cancel all orders on the market;
6. Make changes to the order database if required; and
7. Put the buy/sell orders back onto the market to 5 decimal places instead of 8. This should result in a very small decrease to buy/sell orders on the market.

Other solutions:
Mintpal is the only major exchange for Karma that would have trouble implementing this because they have already opened the Bitcoin/Karma market. New exchanges (or exchanges without Karma markets) could implement this system without having to worry about current orders.


+1. A good suggestion. What would the downsides be to doing this?

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ptman
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July 29, 2014, 09:38:33 PM
 #3853

To elaborate on the above re exchanges trading Karma against BTC in sets of 1000.

Exchanges: Price Karma in lots of 1,000 in Bitcoin


What does this mean?

Instead of Karma being put on the market as a single Karma it could be sold in sets of 1,000. This still means you can sell units of 0.00001 Karma, just not 0.00000001 Karma.

This is very distinct from decreasing the number of Karma via a hard fork although it has the same advantages and could be done around the same time without actually having to change the amount of Karma in existence.

The 0.00001 Karma (being the minimum tradable fraction) of Karma under the proposed change is worth approximately $0.0000000015USD at today’s market rates.

When I last checked there was an actual minimum limit on Mintpal for Karma sales of around 10,000 Karma however this may be based on price and could be there as a transaction spam / exchange fee avoidance countermeasure.

Basically instead of exchanges listing Karma for sale as follows:
Amount: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Price per Karm: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Total: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)

It would be:
Amount: 0.00000 (limit 5 decimal places)
Price per 1,000 Karma: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Total: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)

Under sell orders/buy orders this would change from:
Price (BTC) / Karm / BTC
To:
Price per 1,000 Karma (BTC) / Karma / BTC

The amount of Karma displayed in accounts should be kept the same.

Why the change?

As at the time of writing this 1 Karma is selling for 0.00000002 to 0.00000003 Bitcoins. The smallest fraction of a Bitcoin is called a Satoshi. Karma is trading at 2 to 3 Satoshi. This means theoretically, on the spread, you can either sell your Karma then rebuy 50% more or you can buy Karma and then sell it for 50% more or similar. This will occur no matter the price of Karma, just as the price goes up the margins will get slimmer as the market becomes more granular, ie the difference between prices is less. Even at 40 to 41 Satoshi there is a margin of 2.5%, roughly 10 times more than the exchanges themselves take.

This isn’t healthy for the market. The only way these orders can work is if the price is stable enough for you to both complete your sell order and your rebuy order.

This encourages people to attempt to lock in Karma between a certain price range and also encourages the creation of wall. This is because some people may be putting up a sale expecting that they can then rebuy at a fraction of the price, which may even be on alternate market, for example a Litecoin market.

When price movement is hampered there is less volume in the markets and less interest in Karma.

Benefits of change, buyers/sellers:
Can buy or sell higher at market rates without having to either “wait in line” or sell at far less than it would cost to buy or vice versa.

Benefits of change for exchanges:
More market activity caused by the change means more turn over and more exchange fees.

As one of the first adopters, your exchange will both have Karma for sale at cheaper rates and people will be able to sell Karma for more. This will increase volume on your market for people that want to trade at market rates and not have to wait “in line” for their trade to be executed a decent price.

Implementing the change may be subsidised by the Karma community.

Limitations to current countermeasures to the problem:
Under the current system alternate markets (primarily Litecoin) are being used to trade Karma at a more granular rate while the price is being locked in on the Bitcoin market.

However, this is considered by many to be an inconvenience and still only offers limited protection against sell and buy walls that form on the Bitcoin market.

Suggested implementation for exchanges:
1. Make the relevant notices to customers;
2. Suspend trading on the Karma/BTC market;
3. Back up data;
4. Make the relevant changes to the displays on the market order page;
5. Cancel all orders on the market;
6. Make changes to the order database if required; and
7. Put the buy/sell orders back onto the market to 5 decimal places instead of 8. This should result in a very small decrease to buy/sell orders on the market.

Other solutions:
Mintpal is the only major exchange for Karma that would have trouble implementing this because they have already opened the Bitcoin/Karma market. New exchanges (or exchanges without Karma markets) could implement this system without having to worry about current orders.


+1. A good suggestion. What would the downsides be to doing this?

I can both see it going very well and very bad.

Buying lots of 1000 coins could generate more trades, because of a finer granularity in price.
But at the same time generate a lot of confusion.

I'm of the opinion that we should leave it as it is.
The price will go up 10x because of the qualities of the coin network (both the technical aspects and the community).
And then we will not need buying/selling lots of 1000 anymore.

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bitwho
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July 30, 2014, 04:26:04 AM
 #3854

altcoingood. Is your p2pool all set to mine X11 ?
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btc tips: 1NPQP9Z4Ju6rTnH4uR6986kGVnEkpyYFJZ


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July 30, 2014, 04:40:21 AM
 #3855

Not seeing KARM/BTC trading pair on Cryptsy.  Has it been removed?

LTC: LcTpDxXjVKkjbSHqPkhDVGaqauiD81snhD
ZEC: t1Jd1615qcMq1FQeXPdm1zvjVvnEMAamLNC
ETC: 0xea55ce08f8558c87dc85d4f3c3ebdf2afebbbe32
bitwho
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July 30, 2014, 04:45:33 AM
 #3856

Not seeing KARM/BTC trading pair on Cryptsy.  Has it been removed?

LTC/KARM on cryptsy only now.https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/193

Possible Btc/Karma once it forks. they are watching us. waiting for us to rise in volume!

We have a healthy BTC/KARM on Mintpal https://www.mintpal.com/market/KARM/BTC



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July 30, 2014, 05:25:15 AM
 #3857

What about exchanges? Can I just leave on balance and It will be OK?

Depends on how competent are the guys behind the exchange.

I would not trust them my coins until they migrate to the new wallets.
But that is way I'm...

Migrating your coins to a local wallet (running on your computer) makes much more sense to me.
Just make sure you are running the new wallet (0.8.6.5).


mintpal and cryptsy have confirmed that they are aware of us forking and will be prepared.

to be %100 safe you should always be in control of your own coins.

not to spread fear, if you have no other options but leave your coin in the exchange then you should be okay too.

if you have no means to sell/trade your coins anytime soon my personal advice would be to move your coins in your wallet anytime a hard fork is being executed

cheers

-Who
Cons-e also confirmed they will be ready. I recommend to not keep coins at Comkort and Bleutrade, until they also confirm the transition. Only xhash.net confirmed they will be ready for this transition. I recommend only them and other p2p pools to be written on OP. All other exchanges and pools should be removed from OP. Seems they are not interested and are managed by amateurs.
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July 30, 2014, 05:34:11 AM
 #3858

What about exchanges? Can I just leave on balance and It will be OK?

Depends on how competent are the guys behind the exchange.

I would not trust them my coins until they migrate to the new wallets.
But that is way I'm...

Migrating your coins to a local wallet (running on your computer) makes much more sense to me.
Just make sure you are running the new wallet (0.8.6.5).


mintpal and cryptsy have confirmed that they are aware of us forking and will be prepared.

to be %100 safe you should always be in control of your own coins.

not to spread fear, if you have no other options but leave your coin in the exchange then you should be okay too.

if you have no means to sell/trade your coins anytime soon my personal advice would be to move your coins in your wallet anytime a hard fork is being executed

cheers

-Who
Cons-e also confirmed they will be ready. I recommend to not keep coins at Comkort and Bleutrade, until they also confirm the transition. Only xhash.net confirmed they will be ready for this transition. I recommend only them and other p2p pools to be written on OP. All other exchanges and pools should be removed from OP. Seems they are not interested and are managed by amateurs.

I just had a chat with Bluetrade CEO and it seemed like he was aware but might have had the wrong code version. i sent him a link to the new code.  waiting his reply.

with in 10 minutes he replied "updated and resynchronizing"  Bluetrade good to go!  Grin Grin Grin


also , lets not attack and be grateful of all the pools that supported us so far : )
Chargin
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July 30, 2014, 05:36:39 AM
 #3859

Exchanges: Price Karma in lots of 1,000 in Bitcoin

+1. A good suggestion. What would the downsides be to doing this?

I can both see it going very well and very bad.

Buying lots of 1000 coins could generate more trades, because of a finer granularity in price.
But at the same time generate a lot of confusion.

I'm of the opinion that we should leave it as it is.
The price will go up 10x because of the qualities of the coin network (both the technical aspects and the community).
And then we will not need buying/selling lots of 1000 anymore.


To clarify, it would be priced per 1,000 Karma, you don't need to sell whole units of Karma or blocks of 1,000 Karma, it just limits the number of decimals. You could purchase or sell 0.00001 Karma, subject to the minimum transaction sizes on exchanges, which I believe was something like 10,000 Karma last time I checked on Mintpal.

Although this will help the price (in the medium to long term) it is more about turn over and market flexibility.

The downsides are as follows:
1. People may think it is a second attempt at reverse splitting Karma (rehashing a cancelled idea) because it has the same benefits. It is better for topics to be handled once then left alone. I note however the majority of people were in favour of the reverse split but it wasn't done due to technical considerations. This suggestion alleviates many concerns of those that do not want the reverse split. It is actually a very different suggestion, we aren't reviving a cancelled idea.
2. People may get confused when they see "KARM" trading at 1,000 times its last price and in their joy may not read the amount of BTC a sale will give them. It will be up to exchanges to make this clear in their announcements of the change or a new listing. A mistaken transaction however should be reversible (ie rebuy straight away, hopefully only at a small lose). People with large amounts of Karma will be more careful. Given how large the change is (a factor of 1,000) I don't think many people would make this mistake. To decrease the chance of this I suggest actually making the new listing called KARMA instead of KARM.
3. If people don't understand the benefits they will consider it to be a gimmick. You will have this with practically every change made.

Another implementation option available for Mintpal is open a new KARMA/BTC market with the "price per 1,000 Karma" system and leave the old KARM/BTC market (no A after KARM) there until it becomes disused and eventually the joint listing will be removed. The third option of course is just to cancel all orders and make the change. For your reference the first option was to migrate old orders onto the new system.

Realistically, I see it as more of a new exchange leading the way, gaining market share and other exchanges following the way they think is most reasonable.

I brought it up now because if the x11 transition is a success more exchanges will be interested in Karma and more people will be trying to get Karma on new exchanges. This is far more likely to happen before Karma is listed on exchanges than after.

I am of course in favour of the change.

Vote to get Karma listed on this exchange: https://hitbtc.com/vote (sign up to get a vote for 10 points, vote once every 24 hrs)
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July 30, 2014, 07:18:07 AM
 #3860

Exchanges: Price Karma as price per 1,000 Karma in Bitcoin

For this to be implemented it requires just 2 things:
1. The community to agree that it is a good idea; and
2. The exchange to do the implementation.

Follow up work would simply be ensuring future exchanges know about the preference and noting the activity of the exchanges that have implemented it compared to those that haven't.

Therefore I will outline the benefits to each below. Please feel free to add to the list.

1. Why it is a good idea for Karma holders

1. It will increase the volume traded due to increased granularity. This is important because it makes the cryptocurrency look more active and as if it is actually being used, even if it is for trading on exchanges.

2. If KARM is more traded a day trader that was just looking at the charts and doing a quick trade might actually look into KARM more. "Ohh it's actually called Karma, that's a good name" "Ohh it actually has all this other stuff going on behind it".

3. Increased trading volume means exchanges are more likely to list Karma, which in turn means more people know about and may become active in the Karma community.

4. It makes Karma prices more flexible to changes in value of Karmashares LLC and improvements to Karma itself, which I'd like to think are generally good and will therefore increase prices. As many of you are aware the price wasn't impacted by an announcement that holders of the Karma could potentially receive a pay out of greater than what Karma was actually trading for on the market. This announcement should have had a notable impact on prices.

5. It allows people to buy/sell large quantities of Karma easier at a fair rate in Bitcoin instead of Litecoin. Due to ignorance or laziness people have sold Bitcoins worth of Karma at 2 Satoshi, instead of 2.5 Satoshi worth in Litecoins. At the moment if you want to sell Karma in Bitcoin you are selling to people at 2 Satoshi, those people can then resell the Karma at 3 Satoshi for a 50% mark up. At the moment it is very likely the price will go up again so buying at 2 Satoshi is a reasonably safe investment as far as crpytocurrencies are concerned.

6. It allows people to buy or sell and then change their mind without it costing them 5% of their value just on the spread, that's the difference between 19 and 20 Satoshi. It would currently cost somebody 1/3rd (33%) of their holdings.

7. At the moment it is likely there is queing, people think "yeah I'd probably sell at 7 Satoshi so I'll put my order in now so I'll be the first person to sell instead of the last. If I change my mind I can probably rebuy at 6 or 7 myself to other people that will put orders behind me." This type of thinking can make it look like there are far more people interested in selling Karma than may actually want to, again it also locks in prices and means people are less interested in buying Karma.

8. It decreases the attractiveness of trying to lock Karma between 2 price points or manipulating the market in other ways. For example, locking Karma between 2 and 3 Satoshi results in a 50% gain on every trade. As discussed above people are making these transactions. If the market recovers to a decent buy order at 3 and you were willing to sell all your 1 billion or more Karma at 3 Satoshi you could put your sell order at 3 Satoshi and a buy order at 2 Satoshi with the Bitcoin you just got from your sale. If nobody buys you out fully you could end up selling those coins at 4,5,6 Satoshi (1,2,3 iterations). I don't think this would happen at 3 Satoshi, but 4-5? 19-20? This opportunity shouldn't be there. Stagnation can kill any cryptocurrency.

9. It improves how people perceive Karma. Coins at less than 10 units of measurement (either Satoshi or Litoshi) are more risky because generally (with the exception of Karma's revival) it means the eventual delisting from exchanges and ultimate death of the cryptocurrency. A cryptocurrency trading at 2,000 Satoshi (even in lots of 1,000) doesn't look like it is on the ropes to people that are looking at just the prices of 100 cryptocurrencies however at 3, even 6 Satoshi it doesn't look good. Traders will convert to active community members which will convert to long term value.

10. Due to the granularity issue Karma is only partly listed on the Bitcoin market. Prices have reverted back to when it wasn't listed on the Bitcoin market, this is because effectively it might as well not be listed right now due to a low volume.

The above can be summarised as:
1. Higher Karma prices (in the medium to long term, limited impact in the short term as lots of Bitcoin will need to be spent to soak up Karma currently on the market); and
2. More activity in the Karma community due to increased interest in Karma.

By way of counter argument the downsides and the counter agruments to those downsides are as follows:
1. People may think it is a second attempt at reverse splitting Karma (rehashing a cancelled idea) because it has the same benefits. It is better for topics to be handled once then left alone. I note however the majority of people were in favour of the reverse split but it wasn't done due to technical considerations. This suggestion alleviates many concerns of those that do not want the reverse split. It is actually a very different suggestion, we aren't reviving a cancelled idea.
2. People may get confused when they see "KARM" trading at 1,000 times its last price and in their joy may not read the amount of BTC a sale will give them. It will be up to exchanges to make this clear in their announcements of the change or a new listing. A mistaken transaction however should be reversible (ie rebuy straight away, hopefully only at a small lose). People with large amounts of Karma will be more careful. Given how large the change is (a factor of 1,000) I don't think many people would make this mistake. To decrease the chance of this I suggest actually making the new listing called KARMA instead of KARM.
3. If people don't understand the benefits they will consider it to be a gimmick. You will have this with practically every change made.

2. Why it is a good idea for exchanges

I will flesh this out more depending on interest by Karma holders but basically:
1. Increased volumes, which could also lead to them being or helping secure their position as the primary market for Karma.
2. People may be willing to pay a bounty for the first major exchange to introduce it to help cover the costs of implementation. I'll start the bounty off at 0.2 BTC if implemented by either Mintpal, Crytpsy or a similar volume exchange. If this idea is to be implemented the charities and causes team can take over this fund raising effort and manage the funds.

I will draft a sample message to send to current/new exchanges if the community votes in favour of the change.

Chargin.

Vote to get Karma listed on this exchange: https://hitbtc.com/vote (sign up to get a vote for 10 points, vote once every 24 hrs)
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