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Author Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11  (Read 562991 times)
Alphi
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August 05, 2014, 10:33:04 PM
 #4321


You are right about mining under the radar!
People mining now are going to make huge profits when the coin is worth 10x (mid-term) or 100x (long-term).

I only wish I had a 10KW solar power system on my roof and then I could mine all day long and not have to worry about massive power bills.
I think we will see this happening all around the world in the very near future.

the key is to keep the coin growing strong until renewable energy takes care of the problem of mining power bills.

I think we really are on the cusp of a revolution even if most people cant quite see it yet.


the ability to turn renewable energy (which is free) directly into a store of value (ie digital gold or crypto money) without the need for a middle man.. this is the holy grail that alchemists have been trying to figure out for thousands of years.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
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ptman
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August 05, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
 #4322

I suggest everyone of you that is not a native-english speaker to talk more (post from time to time, maybe one post a day?) on the Karma announcement thread in the subforum of your language (and others).


                   


I started posting on the Portuguese subforum.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=677003.msg8204541#msg8204541

I will also post on the Spanish and French subforums.

We can not image how crazy strong or week will be the result of such markting in the national sub-forums, so better give it a try!

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ptman
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August 05, 2014, 10:37:18 PM
 #4323


You are right about mining under the radar!
People mining now are going to make huge profits when the coin is worth 10x (mid-term) or 100x (long-term).

I only wish I had a 10KW solar power system on my roof and then I could mine all day long and not have to worry about massive power bills.
I think we will see this happening all around the world in the very near future.

the key is to keep the coin growing strong until renewable energy takes care of the problem of mining power bills.

I think we really are on the cusp of a revolution even if most people cant quite see it yet.


the ability to turn renewable energy which is free directly into a store of value (ie gold or crypto money) without the need for a middle man.. this is the holy grail that alchemists have been trying to figure out for thousands of years.

The solar panels are cool but I think they are kite expensive, so the return of investment (ROI) does not look very attractive.
But from an environmentalist perspective its a completely different story... Wink

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Alphi
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August 05, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
 #4324

The solar panels are cool but I think they are kite expensive, so the return of investment (ROI) does not look very attractive.
But from an environmentalist perspective its a completely different story... Wink

I'm not sure where you live but in most countries the ROI is less than 5 years, after that your power is free until the panels break which is about another 20 years.

this is why people cant see the revolution because they don't even realize how cheap solar and other types of renewable energy are right now.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
ptman
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August 05, 2014, 10:46:57 PM
 #4325

The solar panels are cool but I think they are kite expensive, so the return of investment (ROI) does not look very attractive.
But from an environmentalist perspective its a completely different story... Wink

I'm not sure where you live but in most countries the ROI is less than 5 years, after that your power is free until the panels break which is about another 20 years.

this is why people cant see the revolution because they don't even realize how cheap solar and other types of renewable energy are right now.


In that case I'm going to seriouly think about buying some serious solar pannels :-)
Such as one or more of this kits:
https://www.renogy-store.com/400W-Mono-Bundle-p/kit-bundle400d.htm

I have been thinking about buyng this to charge my phone and other small stuff for a long time.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E3OL5U8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p107_d20_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=18JC502K9M3S0YKEQZAT&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846

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Alphi
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August 05, 2014, 10:50:31 PM
 #4326

The solar panels are cool but I think they are kite expensive, so the return of investment (ROI) does not look very attractive.
But from an environmentalist perspective its a completely different story... Wink

I'm not sure where you live but in most countries the ROI is less than 5 years, after that your power is free until the panels break which is about another 20 years.

this is why people cant see the revolution because they don't even realize how cheap solar and other types of renewable energy are right now.


In that case I'm going to seriouly think about buying some serious solar pannels :-)
Such as one or more of this kits:
https://www.renogy-store.com/400W-Mono-Bundle-p/kit-bundle400d.htm

I have been thinking about buyng this to charge my phone and other small stuff for a long time.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E3OL5U8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p107_d20_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=18JC502K9M3S0YKEQZAT&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846


its definitely worth looking into, the larger you go the cheaper it is.
If you are off grid then you also need to buy battery banks etc to store the power so you can run over night.
but most people use ON grid i.e. grid connected systems where they can use the power from their power company at night and then give power back during the day.

or solar panels kits you should be looking at about $1 (or less) per watt..

note a 400W system would not be anywhere near enough to power a fully loaded mining rig. but you could power a few gridseeds with it.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
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August 05, 2014, 11:01:10 PM
 #4327

Well done! Thanks for the response....we have now been added to CCex
We now have a Dollar market!
https://c-cex.com/?p=karm-usd

Good job!

the great thing about this exchange is that it can trade any coin with karma!

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August 05, 2014, 11:02:19 PM
 #4328

The solar panels are cool but I think they are kite expensive, so the return of investment (ROI) does not look very attractive.
But from an environmentalist perspective its a completely different story... Wink

I'm not sure where you live but in most countries the ROI is less than 5 years, after that your power is free until the panels break which is about another 20 years.

this is why people cant see the revolution because they don't even realize how cheap solar and other types of renewable energy are right now.


In that case I'm going to seriouly think about buying some serious solar pannels :-)
Such as one or more of this kits:
https://www.renogy-store.com/400W-Mono-Bundle-p/kit-bundle400d.htm

I have been thinking about buyng this to charge my phone and other small stuff for a long time.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E3OL5U8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p107_d20_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=18JC502K9M3S0YKEQZAT&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846


its definitely worth looking into, the larger you go the cheaper it is.
If you are off grid then you also need to buy battery banks etc to store the power so you can run over night.
but most people use ON grid i.e. grid connected systems where they can use the power from their power company at night and then give power back during the day.

or solar panels kits you should be looking at about $1 (or less) per watt..

note a 400W system would not be anywhere near enough to power a fully loaded mining rig. but you could power a few gridseeds with it.

Yup... 400w would not be enough even for my desktop computer...lol

But for a small house with a LED LCD, some led lights and an efficient computer+monitor (less than 50w)... It would be perfect!
I guess I could live with that...eheh

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ptman
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August 05, 2014, 11:12:50 PM
 #4329

This pool has too much hash rate:
https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=karm

This is one reason we should attract more miners.
And also encourage the usage of P2Pools.

More miners usually equals hashing power more well distributed.

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Alphi
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August 05, 2014, 11:17:20 PM
 #4330


More miners usually equals hashing power more well distributed.

that's what you would expect to happen but in practice miners tend to go to the biggest pool because their payouts are more regular at large pools.
even bitcoin has this problem and they have more miners than all the other alt coins combined.

P2Pool and education are the only things that can tackle the problem of pool centralization.


KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
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August 05, 2014, 11:26:04 PM
 #4331

now just to change the topic slightly.. has anyone seen airtasker?

I just saw this on tv and checked out the site.

https://www.airtasker.com

a site like this for Karma (or any other crypto) where you can task people to do small jobs and good things.. that would be awesome.

consider this for a concept.

just say there is a granny living alone and she needs her garden cleaned.
just say nobody in the Karma community lives near her.
just say there was a website where she could post an advert that she needs help.
just say some generous Karma people offer to support her Task and donate some karma to the cause.
just say some local kids from the neighborhood see the job posted online and need some pocket money.

the kids sign up accept the job.. they clean the grannies garden. Once the job is complete the Granny marks the job well done online and the kids get paid.
now the kids can do whatever they want with their karma. they could swap it for BTC on an exchange, they could buy online goods like Games, or they could use to pay someone else to do a job for them.

everyone is happy and good Karma is bestowed upon all.


well you might say.. what is to stop the kids from doing a crappy job and ripping off the granny...

well just say you had a 5 star system ... if the kids do a good job (5 stars) they get all the money.. 4 stars and they only get 80% of the money etc etc.
and whatever Karma is left over goes back to the donors.

whats to stop the granny from taking advantage of the kids and giving them only 1 star (ie only 20% if the pay) even if they do an awesome job...
well the money left over doesn't go back to the granny and she has a star rating too.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
bitwho
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August 05, 2014, 11:34:58 PM
 #4332

This pool has too much hash rate:
https://www.multipool.us/stats.php?curr=karm

This is one reason we should attract more miners.
And also encourage the usage of P2Pools.

More miners usually equals hashing power more well distributed.

i would be so happy to have all the miners in p2p pool ..


also that multipool pays in btcs.  well unless you select karma as payments... so probably %80 there are collecting btcs. this means the pool sells the karma for btcs.
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August 06, 2014, 01:33:35 AM
 #4333

i don't get it ....

Network: 7.71 GH/s Difficulty: 88.21250552


Network: 4.7 GH/s Difficulty: 85.32779001
Chargin
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August 06, 2014, 02:32:27 AM
 #4334

just looking at the difficulty thinking whats going on here...

then i just checked coinwarz for something to do.. oh




That profitability is under quoted if anything because Karma is selling for 2.3 BTC on Litecoin markets.

If you didn't know anything about Karma and noticed it was trading for only 0.00000002 BTC on Mintpal would you mine it? I wouldn't because if it decreases by 1 mining profitability is halved.

I think one thing we should do is get them to list the price in LTC if we can however I don't know what miners would think seeing it only in LTC not BTC. Perhaps 2 prices would be best if possible...

This is around what I thought Karma would be hashing at so it isn't too big of an issue really.

Vote to get Karma listed on this exchange: https://hitbtc.com/vote (sign up to get a vote for 10 points, vote once every 24 hrs)
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August 06, 2014, 06:50:50 AM
 #4335

We need to attract more miners.

Any idea on how to do it?

We need 50+ GH/s net hash rate to be taken seriously.
At least 5 times more in relation to what we have now.

I would humbly disagree on that. While miners are important our focus should definitely be users.

Our #1 need right now is to attract more users.

Without actual users, Karma is nothing and will be nothing but a novelty token like 99% of altcoins.

That begs the question, "Why would someone use Karma for?"

Before we figure it out, we need to find out who our biggest market will be in 5 years (or can be) and test our assumptions. Help us here: http://redd.it/2cg8kg

It is our most important question and something that we all need to be helping out on.

Goodomy ["GOOD"] token here ∞ Rewards for customers of 700,000 retail stores in the US and millions more around the world
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August 06, 2014, 06:59:59 AM
 #4336

now just to change the topic slightly.. has anyone seen airtasker?

I just saw this on tv and checked out the site.

https://www.airtasker.com

a site like this for Karma (or any other crypto) where you can task people to do small jobs and good things.. that would be awesome.

consider this for a concept.

just say there is a granny living alone and she needs her garden cleaned.
just say nobody in the Karma community lives near her.
just say there was a website where she could post an advert that she needs help.
just say some generous Karma people offer to support her Task and donate some karma to the cause.
just say some local kids from the neighborhood see the job posted online and need some pocket money.

the kids sign up accept the job.. they clean the grannies garden. Once the job is complete the Granny marks the job well done online and the kids get paid.
now the kids can do whatever they want with their karma. they could swap it for BTC on an exchange, they could buy online goods like Games, or they could use to pay someone else to do a job for them.

everyone is happy and good Karma is bestowed upon all.


well you might say.. what is to stop the kids from doing a crappy job and ripping off the granny...

well just say you had a 5 star system ... if the kids do a good job (5 stars) they get all the money.. 4 stars and they only get 80% of the money etc etc.
and whatever Karma is left over goes back to the donors.

whats to stop the granny from taking advantage of the kids and giving them only 1 star (ie only 20% if the pay) even if they do an awesome job...
well the money left over doesn't go back to the granny and she has a star rating too.

It's a good idea and goes in line with our needs to create a small economy to get the economy part of Karma started. I have been working on a similar idea but our first need is discovering who our biggest market will be.

(Donating the first few hundred million Karma to the users and setting a minimum may also help to kickstart it)

Though the last part (not being refunded for a job not well done) may not sit well with users.

Goodomy ["GOOD"] token here ∞ Rewards for customers of 700,000 retail stores in the US and millions more around the world
ptman
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August 06, 2014, 07:31:26 AM
 #4337

We need to attract more miners.

Any idea on how to do it?

We need 50+ GH/s net hash rate to be taken seriously.
At least 5 times more in relation to what we have now.

I would humbly disagree on that. While miners are important our focus should definitely be users.

Our #1 need right now is to attract more users.

Without actual users, Karma is nothing and will be nothing but a novelty token like 99% of altcoins.

That begs the question, "Why would someone use Karma for?"

Before we figure it out, we need to find out who our biggest market will be in 5 years (or can be) and test our assumptions. Help us here: http://redd.it/2cg8kg

It is our most important question and something that we all need to be helping out on.


You are right about users being the most important variable of the equation.

But right now we have a problem.

Around 70% of our hash rate comes from a multipool, that is driving the price down by auto selling for BTC.

Even if we do not care about the price, it makes the network insecure to an attack.




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kosmost
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August 06, 2014, 07:41:20 AM
 #4338

To elaborate on the above re exchanges trading Karma against BTC in sets of 1000.

Exchanges: Price Karma in lots of 1,000 in Bitcoin


What does this mean?

Instead of Karma being put on the market as a single Karma it could be sold in sets of 1,000. This still means you can sell units of 0.00001 Karma, just not 0.00000001 Karma.

This is very distinct from decreasing the number of Karma via a hard fork although it has the same advantages and could be done around the same time without actually having to change the amount of Karma in existence.

The 0.00001 Karma (being the minimum tradable fraction) of Karma under the proposed change is worth approximately $0.0000000015USD at today’s market rates.

When I last checked there was an actual minimum limit on Mintpal for Karma sales of around 10,000 Karma however this may be based on price and could be there as a transaction spam / exchange fee avoidance countermeasure.

Basically instead of exchanges listing Karma for sale as follows:
Amount: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Price per Karm: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Total: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)

It would be:
Amount: 0.00000 (limit 5 decimal places)
Price per 1,000 Karma: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)
Total: 0.00000000 (limit 8 decimal places)

Under sell orders/buy orders this would change from:
Price (BTC) / Karm / BTC
To:
Price per 1,000 Karma (BTC) / Karma / BTC

The amount of Karma displayed in accounts should be kept the same.

Why the change?

As at the time of writing this 1 Karma is selling for 0.00000002 to 0.00000003 Bitcoins. The smallest fraction of a Bitcoin is called a Satoshi. Karma is trading at 2 to 3 Satoshi. This means theoretically, on the spread, you can either sell your Karma then rebuy 50% more or you can buy Karma and then sell it for 50% more or similar. This will occur no matter the price of Karma, just as the price goes up the margins will get slimmer as the market becomes more granular, ie the difference between prices is less. Even at 40 to 41 Satoshi there is a margin of 2.5%, roughly 10 times more than the exchanges themselves take.

This isn’t healthy for the market. The only way these orders can work is if the price is stable enough for you to both complete your sell order and your rebuy order.

This encourages people to attempt to lock in Karma between a certain price range and also encourages the creation of wall. This is because some people may be putting up a sale expecting that they can then rebuy at a fraction of the price, which may even be on alternate market, for example a Litecoin market.

When price movement is hampered there is less volume in the markets and less interest in Karma.

Benefits of change, buyers/sellers:
Can buy or sell higher at market rates without having to either “wait in line” or sell at far less than it would cost to buy or vice versa.

Benefits of change for exchanges:
More market activity caused by the change means more turn over and more exchange fees.

As one of the first adopters, your exchange will both have Karma for sale at cheaper rates and people will be able to sell Karma for more. This will increase volume on your market for people that want to trade at market rates and not have to wait “in line” for their trade to be executed a decent price.

Implementing the change may be subsidised by the Karma community.

Limitations to current countermeasures to the problem:
Under the current system alternate markets (primarily Litecoin) are being used to trade Karma at a more granular rate while the price is being locked in on the Bitcoin market.

However, this is considered by many to be an inconvenience and still only offers limited protection against sell and buy walls that form on the Bitcoin market.

Suggested implementation for exchanges:
1. Make the relevant notices to customers;
2. Suspend trading on the Karma/BTC market;
3. Back up data;
4. Make the relevant changes to the displays on the market order page;
5. Cancel all orders on the market;
6. Make changes to the order database if required; and
7. Put the buy/sell orders back onto the market to 5 decimal places instead of 8. This should result in a very small decrease to buy/sell orders on the market.

Other solutions:
Mintpal is the only major exchange for Karma that would have trouble implementing this because they have already opened the Bitcoin/Karma market. New exchanges (or exchanges without Karma markets) could implement this system without having to worry about current orders.


What are your thoughts on exchange pricing per 100 Karma?

I believe this would make each block currently worth about USD 0.001, which would give us some room for growth in price (with a price target of anywhere between 1 cent to 10 cents per Karma block in the next year or so).

This would, of course, in no way impact users wallets but may make it easier for users to purchase (from a psychological perspective) similar to how pre-paid phone cards or debit cards are re-charged in blocks of units (instead of individual units), You can't re-charge your phone with 1 minute worth of time but perhaps you could with 100 minutes' worth.

When you go to the grocery store to buy meat or fish, pricing may be per 100 grams. The grocery store owner knows that people will buy more when they think of buying multiples or fractions of 100 grams instead of multiples of 1 gram.

I think right now we are just doing what every other coin is doing and not really thinking of how we can be pioneers. Anything different is seen as a "trick". But how about the first grocery store that thought to price their perishables differently?

If change makes sense and has more upside than downside, then I say let's go for it. There will always be people who want to use their horses in an age of the "horseless carriage". But we are leaders, not followers.

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August 06, 2014, 07:58:49 AM
 #4339

We need to attract more miners.

Any idea on how to do it?

We need 50+ GH/s net hash rate to be taken seriously.
At least 5 times more in relation to what we have now.

I would humbly disagree on that. While miners are important our focus should definitely be users.

Our #1 need right now is to attract more users.

Without actual users, Karma is nothing and will be nothing but a novelty token like 99% of altcoins.

That begs the question, "Why would someone use Karma for?"

Before we figure it out, we need to find out who our biggest market will be in 5 years (or can be) and test our assumptions. Help us here: http://redd.it/2cg8kg

It is our most important question and something that we all need to be helping out on.


You are right about users being the most important variable of the equation.

But right now we have a problem.

Around 70% of our hash rate comes from a multipool, that is driving the price down by auto selling for BTC.

Even if we do not care about the price, it makes the network insecure to an attack.





what are our options ?

Will these option we come up to improve the situation temporarily ?

Doesn't price increases demand? 

Kos is right. Increasing user base will help more then worrying about abusive sell orders from miners.

Would cutting down the mining rewards by half stop multipools from abusing us?

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August 06, 2014, 08:08:37 AM
 #4340

You are right about users being the most important variable of the equation.

But right now we have a problem.

Around 70% of our hash rate comes from a multipool, that is driving the price down by auto selling for BTC.

Even if we do not care about the price, it makes the network insecure to an attack.

While I agree in principle I think we can only attract significantly more miners if we focus more on the user value proposition. This will create value and drive the price up, increasing exposure (which attracts a greater variety of miners).

Right now we have about all the miners that we "deserve" , per market forces. We simply introduce new value-adds to those market forces to attract new miners.

When we were hovering under 100 MH/s a few months ago we had a similar problem. So, in order to help solve this problem we created Karmashares. This was a long-term value-add, and within a month or so our hashrate had increased 3,000%

Add value ----> attract more miners -----> problem solved (until new ones arise)

Putting out a call for more miners may help, but if 70% of hashing power comes from multipool-A then we would need to increase the non-multipool-A participants by about 300% in order for multipool-A's hash to comprise 30% of the network. (not considering all the miners who sell Karma for BTC or LTC on the same day, which judging by the posts on this forum seems to be about the same size problem before and after the multipool-A problem. So if we solve this problem and 70% of our usual miners sell Karma for BTC the next day, then it's kind of the same thing though it's not automated)

Without our working towards a functioning economy we are just going round in circles. Unknowingly, we are creating a ditch that drives us further and further under.

There will always be mining challenges (big and small) and we've seen them before. But as we lose focus on the more valuable part of the equation we become just like 99% of altcoins.

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