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Author Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11  (Read 564694 times)
Alphi
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August 21, 2014, 11:56:24 AM
 #4721

Yes, you give them ownership. But the original idea was to reward holders and KARM believers, not to pay exchanges. If exchanges will claim their profit, they will claim all their coins. Many people will not claim profit even they have right for that. So it is possible exchanges will get almost all the profit paid to coin holders, since many human holders will not claim.

I think you are continually missing the point.

1) if any project was sold for 2.5 million dollars... most of that money would not go directly to Karmashares investors as a cash payout.. that would simply be a complete waste of money. there is not a company on earth that distributes all of the money from the sale of an asset to its shareholders.. not unless it was being wound up.

2) the profit sharing is controlled by karmashares.. if big amounts were going to be paid out to shareholders then its a very simple matter of due diligence to determine whether or not those shares are being held by an exchange before any money is paid out. very simple. just by looking at the Karma addresses you can tell which ones are likely used by exchanges and which are not. no need to verify email addresses no need to check ID. you can even ask your shareholders to claim their rewards by singing a transaction to prove they still control the address.


you seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill by creating theoretical problems that do not exist yet and could easily be fixed...

YES karmashares is not 100% exploit proof just like no exchange is 100% exploit proof. but is is fault tolerant.. meaning that if something goes wrong it can be fixed very easily.

if you are so worried about exchanges claiming Karmashares then do something about it.. you are a community member, you have block explorer.. I'm sure it wouldn't take you long to write an algorithm to determine which addresses are controlled by exchanges. ill give you a hint.. very simple transactional analysis should show you based on the number of inputs and outputs. Once you have the addresses of the exchanges its a very simple matter of suspending any karmashares linked to those addresses because they did not follow the rules.

we live in the age of the blockchain where all transactions are public. This is our greatest defence against fraud.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
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KarmaKaguy
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August 21, 2014, 11:58:37 AM
 #4722

Last call for the saving innocence fundraiser!
The fundraiser will close in 24hours. This call is for bitcoin only donations. The few satoshis you see on karmafund.me are mine for testing purposes. Nobody donated btc although some demanded them with quite an emphazise. So, give some satoshis to saving innocence:

www.karmafund.me
Alphi
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August 21, 2014, 12:23:02 PM
 #4723

I responded in bold.

1. Cryptsy is well known for earning POS revenue on coins they not own. They are earning really lot of money on that. They stake them and most of them dump. There was even situation when they forced dev of coin to change from POW to POS. There is no reason to believe they will not take their opportunity to cash their KARM revenue. I am 100% sure every other exchange does the same.

there is no staking whatsoever in Karma. currently the process of collecting Karmashares is actually quite a manual one so more difficult for exchanges to do it and easier for the community to detect and fix problems

2. The official KarmaShares conditions does not say anything like exchanges can't stake their coins. So if some coins holders are paid and some are not, those rejected can easily ask for payout by putting this issue on court. This will break the law.

The rules do say that they have to be held in a wallet not on exchanges. If that isn't made clear enough on the official website then it needs to be updated, I agree. It certainly was clearly written in this forum so there is documented proof of the rules. If this needs to be tested in a court of law there is ample documented evidence and at least 10 witnesses to back up this point

3. There is no way how to detect cold storage wallets, number of transactions is low and there can be thousands of them. Screenshots will not help, it is very easy to import such wallet to windows official wallet on PC

if someone working an exchange has control of a cold storage wallet and can sign messages with it then there are severe problems with that exchanges security procedures. That exchange will likely not last long if this is the case because all their money held in cold storage could just as easily be stolen. I certainly wouldn't put any money on an exchange that did that

4. There is nothing stoping exchange owner from using fake ID, or his personal ID, ID of a friend. We are talking about 30-50% of all KARM coins, it is naive to think exchanges will not CASH out, especially now, when their income is lower and lower month by month. In case of selling lill and payout, it will be hundreds of thousands of USD, it is such big money that they will for sure do anything to take their profit.  

as I said in my previous post.. very easy to detect which Karma addresses are owned by exchanges with very simple transactional analysis, you don't even need to target ALL karma addresses just the biggest ones

I think this problem kills whole idea, lets disable karm payout and allow only karm to karmashares exchanging, otherwise we will cry later a lot.

cross that bridge when you come to it, so far there have been no direct payouts to karmashares holders and when it happens the community can discuss how to handle it and how to handle any fraud

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
socoban
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August 21, 2014, 12:35:49 PM
 #4724

Quote
I think you are continually missing the point.

Nope, I think you are missing the point.

Quote
1) if any project was sold for 2.5 million dollars... most of that money would not go directly to Karmashares investors as a cash payout.. that would simply be a complete waste of money. there is not a company on earth that distributes all of the money from the sale of an asset to its shareholders.. not unless it was being wound up.

There are rules, those rules are strict. There is fixed number of shares and coin holders will earn money in case ANY payout happens. Doesn't matter how you got that Share, you will get payout. You can't restrict payout to some shares and pay only some shareholders. It doesn't matter if that share was received by holding 1000 KARM, or by exchanging directly for shares. Those shares are equal in terms of payout. If Lill will be sold, that means, company gets more than 2 million USD, and it doesn't matter if shareholders get paid only 10%, or 100% that money makes company valuable either now or in future. So If that money will be reinvested and some future profits paid later, still those profits will go to exchanges holding others coins. In my opinion Exchanges own 20-30 billion KARM coins. It is 20-30 million shares. Right now there is 78,958,025 shares exchanged. So this means Exchanges will take around 20% of any payout.
Quote
2) the profit sharing is controlled by karmashares.. if big amounts were going to be paid out to shareholders then its a very simple matter of due diligence to determine whether or not those shares are being held by an exchange before any money is paid out. very simple. just by looking at the Karma addresses you can tell which ones are likely used by exchanges and which are not. no need to verify email addresses no need to check ID. you can even ask your shareholders to claim their rewards by singing a transaction to prove they still control the address.

WRONG, you can't restrict to pay shareholders. If there are rules like are now, than any COIN holder with 5 million KARM holding coins for 30 days gets right for any profit payout. It is not legal to pay only some of them just because you or anyone else decide they are not good enough to get revenue.  If you do that you will be sued on court.

You can't even prevent exchange to ask for payout technically, they own all the private keys, they are technically owning those wallets.

And even if you make it legal, to reject them, there is absolutely no way to say this wallet is owned by exchange and this is not. It is silly to think you can do that, if exchange wants to hide that, it is very easy to  do that.

Quote
you seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill by creating theoretical problems that do not exist yet and could easily be fixed...

Nope, this problem is theoretical if there are no money to be paid. It will be 100% real in case of any payout worth it. I opened this problem now, to prevent big problems in future.

Quote
YES karmashares is not 100% exploit proof just like no exchange is 100% exploit proof. but is is fault tolerant.. meaning that if something goes wrong it can be fixed very easily.
Again wrong, this is not fixable, KarmaShares is company, legal one. It published some rules and those rules have to be according to US law. There is no way to break shareholders rights without being punished by court.


Quote
If you are so worried about exchanges claiming Karmashares then do something about it.. you are a community member, you have block explorer.. I'm sure it wouldn't take you long to write an algorithm to determine which addresses are controlled by exchanges. ill give you a hint.. very simple transactional analysis should show you based on the number of inputs and outputs. Once you have the addresses of the exchanges its a very simple matter of suspending any karmashares linked to those addresses because they did not follow the rules. we live in the age of the blockchain where all transactions are public. This is our greatest defence against fraud.

I am doing the best I can, I am explaining this is not fixable and no tracking algorithm will fix it. Nobody has right to tell, this with 99% probability exchange address, so we will not pay them, even if they have right for that. Just by denying the problem you will not fix it either.
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August 21, 2014, 12:59:54 PM
 #4725

The problem here is one of ownership. Once you transfer your coins to your account at Cryptsy you have transferred ownership. Crypsty can then rightfully stake "your" coins and claim the benefits from them.

It is kind of like when you deposit money into your account. Once you do so it becomes the bank's money and the bank essentially just promises to pay it back (with additional backings, if had, by whatever authority provides insurance for the account).


I think the better analogy would be with a stock brokerage account ..
Typically the broker holds securities ( or coins with an ecosystem/income component )
in 'street name'; but they ( broker ) don't keep the dividends/income .. they credit the dividends to
the account holder .. I think that some people investing/speculating in crypto assume ( wrongly )
that crypto exchanges would function in a similar fashion and automatically credit the account holder
with any 'stake percent' or other 'income' that a particular coin may generate ..

Triff ..

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Alphi
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August 21, 2014, 01:03:16 PM
 #4726

I am doing the best I can, I am explaining this is not fixable and no tracking algorithm will fix it. Nobody has right to tell, this with 99% probability exchange address, so we will not pay them, even if they have right for that. Just by denying the problem you will not fix it either.

omg you really should not be involved in crypto currency if your answer to every technical problem is based on a strict interpretation of US law.

I could go through all your points and cite many examples in the crypto world where US law either does not apply, does not adequately cover OR is not adequately enforced so if you want to argue the strict legalities of everything then you really are in the wrong place for that.

not just Karmashares but ALL crypto based securities and share profit arrangements and all crypto currencies fall under a legal grey area currently so pointing out the legal issues here seems moot and non constructive.

I was only talking from a technical perspective. Technically there are no significant problems as you describe them.. your issues are with US law and how it applies and since I am not a legal expert, I would say that those arguments are best left to the lawyers.
 

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
socoban
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August 21, 2014, 01:22:22 PM
 #4727

I am doing the best I can, I am explaining this is not fixable and no tracking algorithm will fix it. Nobody has right to tell, this with 99% probability exchange address, so we will not pay them, even if they have right for that. Just by denying the problem you will not fix it either.

omg you really should not be involved in crypto currency if your answer to every technical problem is based on a strict interpretation of US law.

I could go through all your points and cite many examples in the crypto world where US law either does not apply, does not adequately cover OR is not adequately enforced so if you want to argue the strict legalities of everything then you really are in the wrong place for that.

not just Karmashares but ALL crypto based securities and share profit arrangements and all crypto currencies fall under a legal grey area currently so pointing out the legal issues here seems moot and non constructive.

I was only talking from a technical perspective. Technically there are no problems as you describe them.. your issues are with US law and how it applies and since I am not a legal expert, I would say that those arguments are best left to the lawyers.
 


LOL, this is joke, right? Do you realize, there is KarmaShares LLC US based company where Kosmost is CEO? Any income will be legal one, there will be taxes, bookkeeping and lawsuits as on any other company in USA. In case of selling lill.com, KarmaShares LLC will receive money as US based company. In case of paying shareholders EVERY shareholder has to be paid. This is the law and no gray shady scam rules apply. This is unique to KARM, everything is legal to make trusted non scam crypto coin community. So again, forget about shady operations, the rules and US & international law are on the first place. This is why I opened this problem, there is still time to solve it. If there will be payout to any KARM coin holder, exchanges have to be paid too.

From official text on karmashares.com:
Quote
Karmashares LLC is the operating entity of Karma, the Bitcoin and Litecoin-like digital currency that is based on "doing good". It is currently forming in the state of Wyoming, USA, for purposes of creating long term value for holders of Karma by developing revenue-generating products and services.


Alphi
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August 21, 2014, 01:46:10 PM
 #4728

LOL, this is joke, right?

no joke, you raised an issue and I gave you simple technical reasons why they can be resolved.

you were talking specifically about some hypothetical rogue entity (exchange or whatever) claiming Karmashares with coins that they hold in a wallet for 30 days. this process is not how most Karmashares are claimed.

I pointed out very clearly that this scenario does not hold water for many technical reasons.

since the vast majority of Karmashares were purchased legitimately by investors the number of Karmashares received by the method you described would be very small indeed.

so really you are just trying to push shit up hill because you believe that there is significant problem when there really isn't one.

you claim that a legal entity has the obligation to pay all it's shareholders equally.. I never said they didn't.

I just pointed out that if those shares are obtained fraudulently then they aren't valid and those people are not shareholders so the legal entity is under no obligation legal or otherwise to pay them dividends.

no doubt if someone wants to break the rules and then claim that their shares are legitimate.. they should test that in court.
no point in arguing the toss here and now when it hasn't even happened yet and this why I will stop talking and let you continue to keep arguing with yourself.

I am not even a member of Karmashares.. I was just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
socoban
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August 21, 2014, 01:59:08 PM
 #4729


Quote
no joke, you raised an issue and I gave you simple technical reasons how they can be resolved.

No you did not, it is technically unsolvable and I already explained why. You just ignored that.

Quote
you were talking specifically about some hypothetical rogue entity (exchange or whatever) claiming Karmashares with coins that they hold in a wallet for 30 days. this process is not how most Karmashares are claimed.
I pointed out very clearly that this scenario does not hold water for many technical reasons.
since the vast majority of Karmashares were purchased legitimately by investors the number of Karmashares received by the method you described would be very small indeed.

I already wrote calculation before, that it will be around 20 million shares. Right now there are around 80 million, so it will be 20% of all shares.


Quote
so really you are just trying to push shit up hill because you believe that there is significant problem when there really isn't one.

20% of 2,5 million USD => 500.000 USD. If half million is shit, than please give me that shit. Even if 100% is reinvested, they will own 20% of future profits.

Quote
you claim that a legal entity has the obligation to pay all it's shareholders equally.. I never said they didn't.
and I just pointed out that if those shares are obtained fraudulently then they aren't valid and those people are not shareholders so any legal entity is under no obligation legal or otherwise to pay them dividends.
no doubt if someone wants to break the rules and then claim that their shares are legitimate.. they should test that in court.

The rules are simple, hold 5 million coins in wallet for 30+ more days. Which of that rule are exchanges violating?

Quote
no point in arguing the toss here and now when it hasn't even happened yet and this why I will stop talking and let you continue to keep arguing with yourself.

When this will happen, it will cost Karma community 500.000 USD.

Quote
I am not even a member of Karma shares.. I was just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

I am afraid you just pointed out flaws in your logic.

This is my last post, I am going on few days vacation. So don't worry, I will not argue with you either, in fact, I am surprised I had to. This problem is so obvious I didn't think someone would argue with me this way.
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August 21, 2014, 04:13:36 PM
 #4730

"Go for it!" - Rocky Balboa

Is anyone interested in a poll to see how many coins people keep on exchanges, and for how long they've been kept there? (this won't be entirely accurate of course, as some will answer falsely but should be an interesting indicator)

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August 21, 2014, 04:29:29 PM
 #4731

I am sure that the Karma price will rise again. Until then, I would like to ask you to give me your ideas on how to liquidize the 16,238,800 Karma raised for saving innocence on the market.
In case we opt for selling them on the exchanges: please let me know your thoughts on 1) minum price and 2)% of daily transaction volume for the amount sold per day. This post is meant to be a brainstorm and does not constitute an official poll or decision. Just would like to hear your thoughts on this. We will make an official poll later on. Your thoughts please.

KarmaKaguy

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karmala
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August 21, 2014, 04:45:30 PM
 #4732

What do you think? Which of dogeyo_to_tokyo's pics would best fit for a Karmashares logo?

http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php?topic=582.0

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Chargin
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August 21, 2014, 05:41:51 PM
 #4733

I've had a quick look at how the gains may be taxed but the US tax system is unwieldy and appears to tolerate loopholes and has exceptions to every rule even when the rule itself is an exception. I can see why Kosmost just wants to pay the money out in one lump sum, it is because it is simpler to deal with, however I don't think this would be best for Karmashare LLC shareholders or Karma holders.

Kosmost:
Do LLC members have to pay taxes on their distributive share of the profits if:
a) The cash has not been received yet by the LLC (revenue/profit recognition); or
b) If the funds were held by an an offshore subsidiary? Could that be set up etc?

Are Karma holders that have held Karma for 30 days "LLC members" for tax purposes or just taking part in a "special allocation"?


For most countries it sounds like I'm trying to "game the system" but in the US it appears to be "form over substance" instead of "substance over form". You'll have to forgive my 1 hour interpretation of the US tax system if I'm wrong.  Roll Eyes

The reason I ask is because I propose that:
1. More funds be held for expenses and reinvestment by Karmashares LLC; and
2. The funds should be paid out over several quarters.

I will write a lengthy post in support of both the above points this week ignoring the tax implications.

Vote to get Karma listed on this exchange: https://hitbtc.com/vote (sign up to get a vote for 10 points, vote once every 24 hrs)
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August 21, 2014, 07:33:33 PM
 #4734

@ alphie & socoban


please maintain your argument professionally. there is no need for personal attacks. You're both clearly arguing for the best of karma. 

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

perhaps we could open a third party agent where coin holder that do not wish to exchange coin can sign up with a multi sig wallets. Kind of automated escrow. Where this service becomes the third party that verifies the deal between the shares and the coin hold.

There will probably be more easier and better ways discovered as more and more cryptographic talents focus on discovering better solutions. perhaps our solution is not discovered yet.

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August 21, 2014, 07:39:12 PM
 #4735

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.

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bitwho
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August 21, 2014, 07:52:35 PM
 #4736

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.

well i meant this would be regulated. a.k.a verified.

Also i didnt really specify in details some crucial points. So far everyone only thinks of exchanges. but there will be tons of other services that will required to hold people coins just like an exchange. So to have a working share explorer it will need to account for exchanges-like services now and possible any other kinds that tomorrow could bring. This would mean that we would have Terms of Services (TOS)

With requiring them to sign a message they fully agree to the TOS. The TOS would easily nullify these services from profiting while holding the coins of their customers . if some exchange decided to register register and sign the message they would break the law and also come off as shady and would probably loose street credits. We would also have people audit who ever sign up as well. starting from the highest investor and down.

Again this are just my opinions. Of course everything will be take up to the group and come up with best possible solution to this
ptman
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August 21, 2014, 08:00:39 PM
 #4737

I am sure simple solution can be implemented that would void exchanges taking advantage of our LLC. Something as easy as an automatic process where coin holders can sign messages that they own that wallet. Just like the shareholder have had to do so far. As the technology advances in cryptoworld it is becoming easier and easier to secure your coin and provide proof of ownership.

As socoban told before, that does not work.

Because the owner (or someone else with access to the exchange wallets) could sign messages like any other normal Karma holder.
With requiring them to sign a message they fully agree to the TOS. The TOS would easily nullify these services from profiting while holding the coins of their customers . if some exchange decided to register register and sign the message they would break the law and also come off as shady and would probably loose street credits. We would also have people audit who ever sign up as well. starting from the highest investor and down.

No, the exchange would not loose "street credits" because the exchange owner could setup cold storage wallets in a way they looked 100% similar to normal wallets of normal users in the blockchain.
And if some ID was required from them, they could just say the wallets are from their distant cousins... and provide their ID...lol

The only way out of this is to end the 30+ day thing....
In my opinion we should announce the end of the 1.75x bonus period now (or close to now), with the extension of 2+ weeks so that people that really want to be part of Karmashares have time to buy shares.

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Kennet_h
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August 21, 2014, 08:45:39 PM
 #4738

you can't just end the 30+ day holding of Karma.
That is the reason why many people decided not to by inn at the 10x period, Me included.
bobcaticus
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August 21, 2014, 08:59:39 PM
 #4739

A Karmacoin promo using the current ALS ice bucket challenge would be great PR... just sayin'

Somethings got to give the coin a kick in the pants
ptman
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August 21, 2014, 09:07:16 PM
 #4740

you can't just end the 30+ day holding of Karma.
That is the reason why many people decided not to by inn at the 10x period, Me included.

10x or 1x?
That was really the reason you did not buy Karma at 10x? Loose 10x to gain 1x?
I can not understand how can that be a reason. Please do explain.

The only reason I see people not wanting to enter 10x (or 5x, 2.5x, 1.75x) is to mantain the Karma coins, which they can sell at anytime.

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