[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[allcrypt]

Need a KARM dev to get in touch.

We did the upgrade from the old KarmaCoin to the new Karma. We are running 8.6.5. Our current block matches the current block on the explorer.

When we did the upgrade, about 15 million KARM disappeared.

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

Running a total of all KARM deposits since we listed the coin totals X. Running a total of all withdrawals totals Y. X - Y is about 15 million. Our current wallet balance is 81k, current user balances is about 15mil.

So, where the hell did the 15mil karm go?

We've re-downloaded the blockchain, and we've restarted with a -rescan option.

15 million KARM are just - gone. And it happened when we updated to the new version.

So - for now - KARM is shut down on AllCrypt. Until someone contacts us with an explanation of what exactly the heck happened.

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[Alphi]

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

you should be able to look at the blockchain and see where every single coin went.
if you have done an internal audit as you say it should become pretty obvious because every transaction has matching inputs and outputs.
In other words.. it is impossible for coins to go missing without a transaction so it must be relatively easy to determine where the coins were sent.

once you have the address that the coins are located then it should be pretty easy to determine if that is the address of one of your users (ie some kind of internal fault) or an unkown address (some kind of foul play)

I am not one of the karma devs.. but as a programmer that is the first place I would look to find where my coins went before making any public accusations.

It doesn't do your exchange any good to make public statements that you don't know where your coins are. Not knowing how they got there is a different issue but if you don't know even know where they are.. that's a worrying sign... just ask Mark Karpeles.


I would also point out that if you don't have the tools necessary to conduct a through audit and determine where all your coins are. then you should probably invest the time to develop them because they will be invaluable to your business in the future.

[bitwho]

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

you should be able to look at the blockchain and see where every single coin went.
if you have done an internal audit as you say it should become pretty obvious because every transaction has matching inputs and outputs.
In other words.. it is impossible for coins to go missing without a transaction so it must be relatively easy to determine where the coins were sent.

once you have the address that the coins are located then it should be pretty easy to determine if that is the address of one of your users (ie some kind of internal fault) or an unkown address (some kind of foul play)

I am not one of the karma devs.. but as a programmer that is the first place I would look to find where my coins went before making any public accusations.

It doesn't do your exchange any good to make public statements that you don't know where your coins are. Not knowing how they got there is a different issue but if you don't know even know where they are.. that's a worrying sign... just ask Mark Karpeles.


I would also point out that if you don't have the tools necessary to conduct a through audit and determine where all your coins are. then you should probably invest the time to develop them because they will be invaluable to your business in the future.

i see these options :

It seems like they were using the old wallet. then once we forked they kept using scrypt fork wallets. probably the scrypt miners kept using the scrypt chain coins into this exchange after the fork. Coins transferred in. the exchange updated to the correct fork and coins vanished as those new coins are not recognized in the proper fork.

I don't see a proper solution to this. thank go it is only 15 mill.

not sure any dev can fix this. i do not know how the exchanges run their system. Perhaps they can try to delete those transactions and see if the coin come back. or they could be long gone.

the sum is too small for them to go though all this hustle

What do we say we do this a community pull through and donate them this amount back?

i will chip in 2 mill. any one else?

[Alphi]

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

you should be able to look at the blockchain and see where every single coin went.
if you have done an internal audit as you say it should become pretty obvious because every transaction has matching inputs and outputs.
In other words.. it is impossible for coins to go missing without a transaction so it must be relatively easy to determine where the coins were sent.

once you have the address that the coins are located then it should be pretty easy to determine if that is the address of one of your users (ie some kind of internal fault) or an unkown address (some kind of foul play)

I am not one of the karma devs.. but as a programmer that is the first place I would look to find where my coins went before making any public accusations.

It doesn't do your exchange any good to make public statements that you don't know where your coins are. Not knowing how they got there is a different issue but if you don't know even know where they are.. that's a worrying sign... just ask Mark Karpeles.


I would also point out that if you don't have the tools necessary to conduct a through audit and determine where all your coins are. then you should probably invest the time to develop them because they will be invaluable to your business in the future.

i see these options :

It seems like they were using the old wallet. then once we forked they kept using scrypt fork wallets. probably the scrypt miners kept using the scrypt chain coins into this exchange after the fork. Coins transferred in. the exchange updated to the correct fork and coins vanished as those new coins are not recognized in the proper fork.

I don't see a proper solution to this. thank go it is only 15 mill.

not sure any dev can fix this. i do not know how the exchanges run their system. Perhaps they can try to delete those transactions and see if the coin come back. or they could be long gone.

the sum is too small for them to go though all this hustle

What do we say we do this a community pull through and donate them this amount back?

i will chip in 2 mill. any one else?

those are some good points that you make.
having read your explanation for what might have happened it does seem plausible.

my gut feeling is that a business that takes peoples money and does not look after it properly should not be rewarded for their mistakes. this is the cost of doing business. and its also a fundamental free market principle.

on the other hand.. if it was caused by a mistake that was made by one of the core karma team then collectively we should all pitch in to help.

so I guess we should establish the real facts before throwing money at the problem.

EDIT:

keep in mind that this could have been done intentionally... someone mining scrypt knowing full well that everyone else was mining X11 and then trying to see if any exchange was running the old wallet and would accept their scrypt transactions. so they find one exchange on the old fork.. move all their coins to that exchange sell them and then when the exchange updates their wallet software.. poof all transactions on the wrong fork gone and the user has their coins back in their wallet.

this is a very real exploit and something that exchanges should be vigilant about.

[bitwho]

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

you should be able to look at the blockchain and see where every single coin went.
if you have done an internal audit as you say it should become pretty obvious because every transaction has matching inputs and outputs.
In other words.. it is impossible for coins to go missing without a transaction so it must be relatively easy to determine where the coins were sent.

once you have the address that the coins are located then it should be pretty easy to determine if that is the address of one of your users (ie some kind of internal fault) or an unkown address (some kind of foul play)

I am not one of the karma devs.. but as a programmer that is the first place I would look to find where my coins went before making any public accusations.

It doesn't do your exchange any good to make public statements that you don't know where your coins are. Not knowing how they got there is a different issue but if you don't know even know where they are.. that's a worrying sign... just ask Mark Karpeles.


I would also point out that if you don't have the tools necessary to conduct a through audit and determine where all your coins are. then you should probably invest the time to develop them because they will be invaluable to your business in the future.

i see these options :

It seems like they were using the old wallet. then once we forked they kept using scrypt fork wallets. probably the scrypt miners kept using the scrypt chain coins into this exchange after the fork. Coins transferred in. the exchange updated to the correct fork and coins vanished as those new coins are not recognized in the proper fork.

I don't see a proper solution to this. thank go it is only 15 mill.

not sure any dev can fix this. i do not know how the exchanges run their system. Perhaps they can try to delete those transactions and see if the coin come back. or they could be long gone.

the sum is too small for them to go though all this hustle

What do we say we do this a community pull through and donate them this amount back?

i will chip in 2 mill. any one else?

those are some good points that you make.
having read your explanation for what might have happened it does seem plausible.

my gut feeling is that a business that takes peoples money and does not look after it properly should not be rewarded for their mistakes. this is the cost of doing business. and its also a fundamental free market principle.

on the other hand.. if it was caused by a mistake that was made by one of the core karma team then collectively we should all pitch in to help.

so I guess we should establish the real facts before throwing money at the problem.

This is not about who is right or wrong. the exchange business must have its own problems and i bet they dont have the time to follow on every single coins endover. at the same time it would've been up to our community to also let them know in advance. I am going to go around asking our team if anyone contacted them ? no. I am going to sit here asking anyone else  in here if they did? no.

I just figured since it is a low number of coin being los. too low to be fake . lets do the better thing and try to compensate them ?

edit: and also publicly state that this would be the solution next time.  well the solution i will seek for
disclaimer: this has been a decision done by me as a karma member and does not represent the team.

[Alphi]

This is not about who is right or wrong. the exchange business must have its own problems and i bet they dont have the time to follow on every single coins endover.

this is where you and I would disagree...

not having time to take adequate steps to secure the money that people have entrusted to them is a very poor argument for an exchange or any other financial institution.

if you claim to run a legitimate business. you collect other peoples money.. you claim it is safe and secure. ultimately you are responsible for that money.

just as an example.. if you put your money in the bank and they get robbed, hacked or they lose it... should everyone else who uses that money have to pay for the mistake? even people who don't even use that bank?

I know there are some people who would argue.. yes we should bail out banks because they help keep the economy running.
other people would argue that no we should let them fail if their own practices caused the problem.

for me it's more about the principle than the money and that's why I suggested we find out what actually caused the problem before throwing money at it.

[kosmost]

LOL kosmost, sometimes you care too much. Believe me I do not enjoy that my prediction came true. I was going to add "Then I might have to start buying again.", but - as I currently have absolutely zero BTC to spend - I left it out simply because I couldn't. Would that have sounded better?

I know you hate people discussing price but relax, that's how this market and these forums works. Karma is traded on exchanges and you got to admit - right now trading is the primary usecase for Karma. Or can you name me a better one? We all want to change that yeah, but until that happens most people here are just trading coins. There's nothing bad about being a trader. That's how most of us got here in the first place. There would be no Karma and no community without that.

Look, I've purchased my first Karmacoin the day Mintpal opened. I've mined it for quite some time. I've registered on these boards because of it (even though it looks like you might prefer I hadn't ). I've bought all through our depression. I've sold some during the pumps, but not as much as I invested into Karmashares and less than I still hold. I am not going anywhere (except on vacation soon, yay!).

Peace my friend.

Actually, I don't mind discussions about price. it's normal. I only mind when it is the majority of discussions at times when there are more important things to discuss, or there is a ton of stuff to do and our team would rather spend 5 hours discussing price rather than 5 hours working on something.

Price discussions get in the way of actual work for those who need to be active on other things.

We have not been talking about adding value that much, so haven't focused on it. And now we will have more price discussions.

(For me, a price discussion also includes strong reactions to price drops. We can spend a day discussing a change of direction if the price drops 10%)

Please, take me on holiday with you!

[karmala]

Need a KARM dev to get in touch.

We did the upgrade from the old KarmaCoin to the new Karma. We are running 8.6.5. Our current block matches the current block on the explorer.

When we did the upgrade, about 15 million KARM disappeared.

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

Running a total of all KARM deposits since we listed the coin totals X. Running a total of all withdrawals totals Y. X - Y is about 15 million. Our current wallet balance is 81k, current user balances is about 15mil.

So, where the hell did the 15mil karm go?

We've re-downloaded the blockchain, and we've restarted with a -rescan option.

15 million KARM are just - gone. And it happened when we updated to the new version.

So - for now - KARM is shut down on AllCrypt. Until someone contacts us with an explanation of what exactly the heck happened.

First question is: when did you update your wallet  (exact date and time)? I am quite sure it was too late and you had scrypt coins coming in after the fork. That is, question two: when did the 15 mil arrive in your wallet?

[karmala]

We've run internal audits four times. Every single deposit we have crediting to a user exists in the blockchain (gettransaction <txid> returns with an amount that matches our internal accounting). Every single withdrawal is matched. No deposits or withdrawals are duplicated. No transactions, sales, or buys are duplicated.

you should be able to look at the blockchain and see where every single coin went.
if you have done an internal audit as you say it should become pretty obvious because every transaction has matching inputs and outputs.
In other words.. it is impossible for coins to go missing without a transaction so it must be relatively easy to determine where the coins were sent.

once you have the address that the coins are located then it should be pretty easy to determine if that is the address of one of your users (ie some kind of internal fault) or an unkown address (some kind of foul play)

I am not one of the karma devs.. but as a programmer that is the first place I would look to find where my coins went before making any public accusations.

It doesn't do your exchange any good to make public statements that you don't know where your coins are. Not knowing how they got there is a different issue but if you don't know even know where they are.. that's a worrying sign... just ask Mark Karpeles.


I would also point out that if you don't have the tools necessary to conduct a through audit and determine where all your coins are. then you should probably invest the time to develop them because they will be invaluable to your business in the future.

i see these options :

It seems like they were using the old wallet. then once we forked they kept using scrypt fork wallets. probably the scrypt miners kept using the scrypt chain coins into this exchange after the fork. Coins transferred in. the exchange updated to the correct fork and coins vanished as those new coins are not recognized in the proper fork.

I don't see a proper solution to this. thank go it is only 15 mill.

not sure any dev can fix this. i do not know how the exchanges run their system. Perhaps they can try to delete those transactions and see if the coin come back. or they could be long gone.

the sum is too small for them to go though all this hustle

What do we say we do this a community pull through and donate them this amount back?

i will chip in 2 mill. any one else?

I have no problem with giving them some Karma for compensation as it is good pr. However, I will not contribute as long as the comunity is not able to reach the 8 mil goal of our saving innocence fundraiser which I find much more important.... http://karmafund.me/

[Alphi]

I have no problem with giving them some Karma for compensation as it is good pr. However, I will not contribute as long as the comunity is not able to reach the 8 mil goal of our saving innocence fundraiser which I find much more important.... http://karmafund.me/

+1
I agree with you.. there are people who, through no fault of their own, are suffering.. and they should be given priority.

[learminer]

Actually, I don't mind discussions about price. it's normal. I only mind when it is the majority of discussions at times when there are more important things to discuss, or there is a ton of stuff to do and our team would rather spend 5 hours discussing price rather than 5 hours working on something.

I've written several lengthy posts on the Lill deal, its possible benefits for Karma, needed changes in priorities and concrete proposals on services we'd need to help get things moving faster in the future. Didn't exactly get much of a reaction on it though. At least not as much as on a one-liner about price got. So maybe you're right and people do care too much about that and too little about important matters.

Please, take me on holiday with you!

Well we do have a free sleeping couch in our appartment which you could crash on. So if you don't mind flying over to the "old world" again already be my guest. I'd have to check with the missus first though.

[karmala]

Actually, I don't mind discussions about price. it's normal. I only mind when it is the majority of discussions at times when there are more important things to discuss, or there is a ton of stuff to do and our team would rather spend 5 hours discussing price rather than 5 hours working on something.

I've written several lengthy posts on the Lill deal, its possible benefits for Karma, needed changes in priorities and concrete proposals on services we'd need to help get things moving faster in the future. Didn't exactly get much of a reaction on it though. At least not as much as on a one-liner about price got. So maybe you're right and people do care too much about that and too little about important matters.

Please, take me on holiday with you!

Well we do have a free sleeping couch in our appartment which you could crash on. So if you don't mind flying over to the "old world" again already be my guest. I'd have to check with the missus first though.

yeah, you can allways have a room in our little house if you are in Germany Kos.

UrsaMajorisBeta, did you read my previous post?

[bondi]

I have no problem with giving them some Karma for compensation as it is good pr. However, I will not contribute as long as the comunity is not able to reach the 8 mil goal of our saving innocence fundraiser which I find much more important.... http://karmafund.me/

Just sent 50.000

[kosmost]

I have no problem with giving them some Karma for compensation as it is good pr. However, I will not contribute as long as the comunity is not able to reach the 8 mil goal of our saving innocence fundraiser which I find much more important.... http://karmafund.me/

I just donated a few million.

By the way, the graphic on http://karmafund.me/innocence appears to be broken.

[p4r4m0un7]

Please check the block explorer.

[KarmaKaguy]

Please check the block explorer.

yes, it was off for a short time. It is strange, Karmadeamon runs smoothly in the background and every few days insight turns off. No real problem. I just start it again. However, I will get some assistance from linux guys who can check this out and help be with a fallback. Sorrry for the inconvinience.

[KarmaKaguy]

I have no problem with giving them some Karma for compensation as it is good pr. However, I will not contribute as long as the comunity is not able to reach the 8 mil goal of our saving innocence fundraiser which I find much more important.... http://karmafund.me/

I just donated a few million.

By the way, the graphic on http://karmafund.me/innocence appears to be broken.

The graphic did not work on my mobile one hour ago. Just arrived at my desktop. Its there now....

Well, dear Karmenions,

Kos just donated 10mil Karma to saving innocence. Now, we definitively reached our goal!!!!!!!!  

http://www.imgion.com/images/01/Ribbon-Of-COngratulation-.jpg

However, before we close this fundraiser: In the forum I made a last call specific to the Karma Whales. Now it is time for some big donations from the whales. If you are a whale, donate some before we close the fundraiser!
The block expolorer tells me that we have some whales.
Donate here: http://karmafund.me/innocence

[KarmaKaguy]

I have no problem with giving them some Karma for compensation as it is good pr. However, I will not contribute as long as the comunity is not able to reach the 8 mil goal of our saving innocence fundraiser which I find much more important.... http://karmafund.me/

Just sent 50.000

Thank you very much bondi!!

[ShawnLeary]

http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php?topic=579.msg3426#msg3426

it's been a blast ya'll! family and work taking up too much time for me to have the impact that I wanted here.  keep in touch and I am sure I will see you out on the interwebs.

[learminer]

http://karmashares.com/forums/index.php?topic=579.msg3426#msg3426

it's been a blast ya'll! family and work taking up too much time for me to have the impact that I wanted here.  keep in touch and I am sure I will see you out on the interwebs.

Thanks for all your dedication and great work. Sad to see you step down. But with two kids and a little baby (so cute BTW, thanks for sharing this pic with us!) there are simply more important things than crypto in your life. Enjoy every moment, they grow up so damn fast!