[ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11

[luqas0891]

I see an incredible lack of slack in the stock market turnover, I think that the lack of good information bring the price within two days to 1 satoshi, and this raises another problem that mintpal not want to lose market KARM / BTC from what I remember this market has been turned on for test and turn us fades taking into account yesterday the big players are selling KARMACOIN

The main question is at what stage KARMX when it is running?

and as they go to work on a combination KARM with KARMX? whether it is at all possible?

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[Chargin]

Stop saying 1 Satoshi. 

[luqas0891]

The main question is at what stage KARMX when it is running?

and as they go to work on a combination KARM with KARMX? whether it is at all possible?

[Triffin]

KARM and anonymous transactions

"Anonymous Transaction Capability" seems to be the flavor of the month ..

Several BitCoin 'whales' and numerous 'Hero' forum members have concluded
that Monero ( XMR ) and BoolBerry ( BBR ) offer the most robust solutions to
what they see as a serious BitCoin 'flaw' ie the ability to 'data mine' the public ledger
that is the BitCoin Block Chain ..

Read all about it here ..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624223.1280

Like it or not, but certain 'whales' and 'hero' members have a following
on this forum and are able to successfully promote a given point of view ..

A concensus appears to have been reached as to the absolute desirablity
for a 'coin' that offers true anonymous transaction capability and that
XMR in particular has the required capabilites making it an 'investable' option ..

NXT appears to be aware of this trend/issue and just announced a "pNxt"
( asset? or sidechain? ) with anonymity .. See post #4243 on page #213

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=587007.msg7734997;topicseen#msg7734997

I can follow the arguement with regards to anonymous transactions ..
No wealthy individual or major corporation will want to utilize BitCoin
in a meaningful  way when anyone can recreate/observe their every financial
move via the Blockchain .. One certainly wouldn't post their monthly credit card or
bank statements to their facebook page for instance !!  

I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to 'add' anonymity to an existing coin's feature set ..
There were several comments in the above referenced thread that seemed ( to me ) to indicate
that BitCoin could not adopt 'true' anonymity and thus the search for an alternative coin ( XMR ) ..

I'm just throwing this out to our devs as a 'feature' for future consideration as KARM evolves ..
It would be neat if "anonymous transaction" was a 'send coins option' from within the wallet ..

My assessment of AT could be wrong, but this is a 'trend' that needs watching ..

Triff ..  

[p4r4m0un7]

ANON is fancy feature for a coin only. KARMA is not a coin. It is a ecosystem that doesn`t fit into ANON shoes. Simple as that.

[Triffin]

That is not to say that your personal information as a Karma user is in danger. No.
You as a user will have that option if you ever want or need your transaction to be safe from prying eyes.
There are ways and means to do that without going anon.


Thanks easteagle13 ..

Point taken ..

I hadn't considered the inherent conflict presented
by 'anonymous transactions' with the philosphical aspect of KARM

Triff ..

[Alphi]

I can follow the arguement with regards to anonymous transactions ..
No wealthy individual or major corporation will want to utilize BitCoin
in a meaningful  way when anyone can recreate/observe their every financial
move via the Blockchain ..

what are you talking about? overstock.com and newegg aren't major corporations?

selling a real gold mine for $2 million dollars of bitcoins isn't using bitcoins in a meaningful way?

I think that an 8 billion dollars market cap represents a pretty serious investment in bitcoin.. bitcoin dwarfs any other crypto coin by both size and volume of transactions (even those who claim to be "more anonymous")

do you really think that authorities around the world wont act to ban coins with inbuilt anonimising features?

do you really want Karma end up being used in websites like Silkroad 3.0 or Jihad.com ?

I am doing some analysis on the blockchains of various crypto currencies.

the blockchain size of Darkcoin is 251mb   the blockchain size of Karma is  326mb

what this suggests to me is that people are investing in Darkcoin with the hope that its anonymity features will drive adoption, but in reality its is coins like Karma which are currently more widely used.

I am yet to do a more in depth analysis of the transactions, network distribution and growth rates of the various alt coins and it will be interesting to see what I manage to discover.

Darkwallet (for bitcoin) is essentially the same thing as DarkSend (for Darkcoin) and I suspect this is why darkcoin has been losing steam lately (they are both implementations of coinjoin which is currently far from 99% secure)

Karma, on the other hand has a lively, active and growing community and this is what I believe has caused its recent rise in prices.

If we continue to grow the community and grow the number of transactions the coin will gain in market cap and price naturally without the need for changing the coin every time a new 'trend' comes along.


I think Flava Flav said it best.... "Don't believe the hype!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM&feature=kp


PS I just saw your other message.. its all good.

[hitbtc]

Congratulations to KARM for its progress in our voting, don't forget to keep supporting it. And be sure that if you become a market maker for Karmacoin, it will be added at once.

To support your loyal community we decided to create an original and recognizable image. It needs a name, and it's up to you to come up with something suitably memorable for the guy!
Karmacoin is now in the top 20 and your active voting will most likely put it in the lead sooner or later.

[learminer]

You'd think with half of the new coins coming out being complete organized pump and dump scams people would smarten up and start putting their BTC in established coins with potential.


hint hint -> Karma

[Alphi]

Brazil V Germany in a few hours... Brazil missing one of their star players, this could get very interesting for Karmaworldcup betters if Brazil loses.

[bitwho]

Chin up and buy them cheep coins. whole markets are lacking buyers. i am guessing everyone is holding to their btcs thinking bitcoin will go up. Silly buyers.



Whats everyone thoughts on our POW block rewards? 35,000 coins a block? good size? too big? not big enough? perhaps we cut down to 3500 coins a block?

What about opinion about splitting back our coin to a 10:1 ratio? 1,000,000 coins to revert into 100,000 coins? 5:1 ratio? 3:1? 2:1?


lets have some fun arguments!

[Bierworst]

It has no use to talk about this as Shawn is talking about a ltc only market. If this market would ever occur again you can start digging a grave for karma already. We have to look at is positively, although the drop from 600 --> 300 litoshi is huge. Any comment on that? And when will there be new implementations, without this we will stay at 300 or lower.

[ShawnLeary]

A reverse split would be a good idea if we were faced with being back on the Litoshi only market.   We would simply move the decimal place over one digit.  The value and scarcity would place the market value versus BTC x10 so we would go from 3 satoshi to 30 satoshi per KARM.   Everyone's wallets would go down 90% of course, but it would all even out in the end.   Instead of 55M KARM there would be 5.5M KARM.  Instead of the eventual 92B KARM it would be 9.2B KARM.  A reverse split is something used all the time by stocks that are in danger of being delisted.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/reversesplit.asp

[luqas0891]

sat = sat2 it is not good

[Alphi]

A reverse split would be a good idea if we were faced with being back on the Litoshi only market.   We would simply move the decimal place over one digit.  The value and scarcity would place the market value versus BTC x10 so we would go from 3 satoshi to 30 satoshi per KARM.   Everyone's wallets would go down 90% of course, but it would all even out in the end.   Instead of 55M KARM there would be 5.5M KARM.  Instead of the eventual 92B KARM it would be 9.2B KARM.  A reverse split is something used all the time by stocks that are in danger of being delisted.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/reversesplit.asp

that's true for stocks because NYSE has listing requirements that a stock must to be over $1 for atleast 90 days to meet the requirements to remain on the exchange if I recall correctly. (if they do not meet the requirements they get a delisting notice which can crash the stock price)

Most Hedge funds also have a requirement of $5 share price before they can buy.

with crypto exchanges price has very little to do with delisting because we can go down to 8 decimal places so it all comes down to volume.

reverse splitting has no real effect on volume so in the case of crypto it is pointless.

if we were stuck at 1 litoshi then maybe I would be worried about being delisted from mintpal. but believe me .. if we ever went to 1 litoshi this would mean that everyone had completely abandoned the coin so it wouldn't be worth holding anyways.

also there is so much that can go wrong with reverse splitting a crypto coin because the entire history of transactions is stored in the blockchain..  this means that any kind of jiggery pokery like shifting decimals has to either rewrite the entire blockchain on everyone's computers OR have half the blockchain in one numerical format and the other half in the new format. this could potentially create major accounting problems in the future and/or leave the door open for accounting errors..   you also have to go and contact every single exchange that trades your coin and make them switch over to the new system....

in short... reverse split = very big headache very little gain.

satoshi made sure that splitting would never be necessary by making the currency go down to 8 decimal places (which can easily be extended further without messing with the math)

by extension of that logic... if splitting is not necessary then reverse splitting is also not necessary.

[Triffin]

Alphi ..

When you have a second .. search the forum for Saturn Coin ..
They just did a 'reverse' split converting SAT to SAT2 ..
The divisor was 1000 ..
I only know about it since SAT was/is listed on Cryptsy
and BigVern posted a 'heads up' about it ..
Don't know if the SAT 'devs' ran into any particular difficulties
with the change, but it was a recent event  ..

My only concern with our 'situation' is that the switch back to
a KARM/BTC trading pair occurred at such a low price point that
the minimum allowable price change ( 1 Satoshi ) represents a large
percentage price change of total coin value .. even with KARM at 20 Satoshi
+ or - 1 Satoshi is 5% ..

Triff ..

[Chargin]

I'm sorry but I think the price needs to come down again so we can regroup, I'm thinking long term. I think 1-2 Satoshi is reasonable for now and I'm sure the market will head there sooner or later depending on how stubbornly people are going to throw BTC to keep it up.

The price has been inflated and support appears to be weakening. I was hoping that if we got to 5-6 Satoshi we would be able to get much higher but the market stagnated and is now correcting. There is only one real buyer that was playing around with 40 BTC at 3-4 Satoshi and by my estimates he has about 15 BTC left sitting at 2 Satoshi after pulling back his price. If that buyer leaves the market the price will drop back to 1-2 Satoshi very quickly...which probably isn't a bad thing.

After the price has come down again does anyone else think we need to get Mintpal to cancel trades and relist us on the BTC market with Karma prices being more granular? If we ask Mintpal to make the minimum trade 1,000 KARMA and call each unit KARMK or simply KARMA (many people refer to increments of 1,000 as "k"). Every 1,000 Karma = 1 KARMK or KARMA. The key advantage of this is it will make the price more granular so it is less likely to get stuck and less people will dump at any given price point. I'm a fan of Karma changing hands and I don't think it will happen unless the price can move.

I don't want the above done at current price levels. I think we got too exited on the original listing back onto the BTC market and the lead up to it. It will be far better if we can grow from 1,000 Satoshi for 1KARMK (1,000 Karma) back to 2,000 Satoshi.

Please let me know if:
1. You want the price to come down.
2. After the price comes down you want to ask Mintpal to relist us as KARMA or KARMK on the BTC market and every KARMA/KARMK on Mintpal be worth 1,000 Karma.

I will make an official poll based on the feedback to point number 2 in 30 hours. Please also give me your feedback on the first point by then as well.

Chargin.

[Bierworst]

Triff, isn't this just something we have to overcome? If we see a positive perspective for Karma, shouldn't we leave the amount of coins alone? I understand your statement about the huge percentage difference in price when going from 3 to 4 satoshi or even 10 to 11. I think starting from 20 satoshi, where it would be a 5% change, is absolutely acceptable (for me personally).
The low satoshi rate may also make the coin more atactive, investors like a quick return and if it doesn't hurt the coin too much, is does give us a much needed volume

Just an opinion ofcourse, cheers

Chargin,

No the price should not go down to this level as it will have a negative influence on the peopling following us, you don't have infinite chances to regroup and the go up again. This is a tough market, if people doubt you too much, you wil lose. I hope we will gain buy support the next days so that the past week can be seen as, just a less good time.

Cheers

[Triffin]

I will be taking feedback for the next 30 hours.

My personal opinion ( FWIW ) is that we re-opened the KARM/BTC pair at too low a price point ..
Just go with KARM/LTC until prices are consistently greater than 20 Satoshis before trying this again ..

Just gets too confusing requesting alternate symbols ( KARMA/KARMK ) and different lot sizes ..  
KARM trading should be uniform across all exchanges where KARM is listed ..

Whatever decision is reached it should be universally applied ..
Don't forget that we'll soon have a separate 'side chain' with a different symbol  ..

Wether or not to consider a 'reverse' split would be a separate discussion ..

Triff ..

[Bierworst]

Here another opinion: if our volume would grow from our new developments that are coming, our price could easily rise. The sell orders are per satoshi price 10-20 btc max. Thats 14500$ max, thats NOTHING. Imo, we can also grow with this btc market, but a closing of the btc market should not occur, maybe only a PAUSE of the btc market, while its still listed but the orders are deleted but the market is able to be seen. This purely out of a psychological perspective that there is no absence of the market, just a market that is temporary not open.

Any comments on this?

Cheers