Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Mini Rig Box

[DeathAndTaxes]

Miners will never be more than a small fraction of the Bitcoin population.

By protocol the reward if fixed.  More miners simply means the reward is split into smaller and smaller chunks.  The price/difficulty ratio is set by the lowest cost miners (in terms of uptime, electrical rates, size, skill, hardware, etc).  If there is profit for the network to expand they will expand.  When there isn't sufficient profit people like your Grandmother will be the ones forced out.

As time goes on Bitcoin mining will become a more and more specialized industry.  Someday giant warehouses with rack and rack and racks of ASIC servers will hash full time being monitored by dedicated staff with profits going to owners or even shareholders.

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[Brunic]

Miners will never be more than a small fraction of the Bitcoin population.

By protocol the reward if fixed.  More miners simply means the reward is split into smaller and smaller chunks.  The price/difficulty ratio is set by the lowest cost miners (in terms of uptime, electrical rates, size, skill, hardware, etc).  If there is profit for the network to expand they will expand.  When there isn't sufficient profit people like your Grandmother will be the ones forced out.

As time goes on Bitcoin mining will become a more and more specialized industry.  Someday giant warehouses with rack and rack and racks of ASIC servers will hash full time being monitored by dedicated staff with profits going to owners or even shareholders.

Part of it yes, but I think another part of the miners population will be a crazy load of really small miners. I don't think my grandmother will run a full rig with 4 radeon and FPGA all-around. More in the way of:

"Hey Grandmother, click that icon there, and your computer will generate you Bitcoins".

One of my friends asked me if I could sell him 1 to 3 Bitcoin each month, because he needed it for small purchases (like a VPN). I showed him that he could mine them with a Radeon he had, and make 3-4 Bitcoins each month. He's really happy of getting his 3-4 Bitcoins/month and he doesn't really need more than that.

Some people will just mine for their needs of Bitcoins, like they make a little farm in their backyard for their needs of food. The network is already at 12 THash, but it doesn't prevent people from mining with CPU or with their gaming GPU. They are happy with their 0.3 Bitcoins/week, and that's ok.

[DeathAndTaxes]

One of my friends asked me if I could sell him 1 to 3 Bitcoin each month, because he needed it for small purchases (like a VPN). I showed him that he could mine them with a Radeon he had, and make 3-4 Bitcoins each month. He's really happy of getting his 3-4 Bitcoins/month and he doesn't really need more than that.

My point is that in time he won't be earning 3-4 BTC per month he will be getting 0.1 BTC per month "for free" and paying 20 BTC in electricity to get it.

Either he will be forced to become a specialized miner and devote significant capital and other resources or he will start buying his coins.   Lots of people buy Gold Coins, not that many people mine them.  Even if you had gold under your house you likely couldn't extract it for less than market rates without specialized equipment and skill (or pay someone else to do it).

My hypothesis is that over time the miners as a % of Bitcoin users will decline (from 100% prior to exchanges) down to 10% or so.  The margins will be so small even for optimal miners (cool summers, low electrical cost, lots of space, capital for largest most efficient rigs, etc) that non-optimal miners will simply be mining at a loss.

Then again maybe I am wrong.

[triplehelix]

i don't think accessibility to mining will have a huge impact on bitcoin popularity.  we need more people spending bitcoin, we need more organizations accepting bitcoin, we do not however need more miners simply dumping their coins on mtgox.

You forget that no matter how many new miners come online (or go away), the rate of bitcoin generation will not waver: difficulty self-adjusts so that it will ALWAYS be 300 BTC/hour (until the reward per block gets cut in half, later this year). So whether we have a 2 TeraHash/s network or a 20 TeraHash/s network makes no difference ... the # of coins getting dumped on MtGox remains the same.

i'm not sure how that impacts my opionion that more/easier mining doesn't have a huge upside to spreading bitcoin...that more main stream acceptance will come with a deeper market buying and selling services, products and accepting donations in bitcoin.

i'm not saying there is anything wrong with mining and selling on mtgox, nor was i trying to imply that there was any increase in coins being sold if mining was further diversified amongst new miners, just that if mine and dump is all they do, they don't benifit bitcoins advancement.

Dude, there's only two way to get Bitcoins:
-Mining them
-Being on the receiving part of a transaction.

If you want people to spend Bitcoins, they need to get them first. Mining already had a crazy impact on Bitcoin popularity, and giving a better accessibility will just add to this impact.

I'll be happy when my grand-mother will be able to mine her own Bitcoins to spend, not before.

silly me, i was under the impression there were wide and diverse means to get bitcoins.  things like exchanges, otc markets, and to a lesser extent meat space exchanging.  i must also be mistaken that people are acquiring bitcoin by selling services and products like on silkroad, bitmit and other online companies:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

and a small but growing number of brick and mortar companies accepting bitcoin:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Real_world_shops

personally, i'd rather my grandmother accepted bitcoin for her incredible baked goods then have her set up a mining rig.

yes, mining helped spread the popularity of bitcoin.  i'm of the opinion that we've reaped the majority of the benefits there.  sure, there may be some additional popularity gains to be gained from making mining more popular, but as mentioned, your not considering that the more popular mining gets, the less profitable it becomes.  its a way forward that shoots itself in the face.  show people that they can donate to wikileaks even though paypal and vc/mc tried shutting them down, show them they can pay for their offshore seedbox anonymously, show torrent sites they can accept donations and pay for their servers anonymously and be insulated from corporate payment processors actions, show individuals and companies that they can save a non negligable percentage on processing fees, and then use those same bitcoins to puchase items for their company and profits in bitcoin can be spent for their personal needs desires...then and only then will bitcoin start seeping more steadily, more permanently into the mainstream.

as long as the bulk of the bitcoin economy consists of miners dumping bitcoin on exchanges and speculators, it will remain fragile.  strength and permanence will only be gained through broad and diverse use of bitcoin as a tool of commerce and money transfer.

[e21]

Received the following response about 3 hours ago to my query about Rev 3 single and Rig Box

Yes, orders today will receive Rev 3 and lead time is still 4-6 weeks and Rig box lead is 12-15 weeks.

Thanks for your interest.

Sonny K.
BFLabs, Inc.

What is the difference between revision 2 and 3? Didn't see that this was answered elsewhere.

EDIT: Sorry, found: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68093

Is that all it is, is the heatsink?

[BFL-Engineer]

Received the following response about 3 hours ago to my query about Rev 3 single and Rig Box

Yes, orders today will receive Rev 3 and lead time is still 4-6 weeks and Rig box lead is 12-15 weeks.

Thanks for your interest.

Sonny K.
BFLabs, Inc.

What is the difference between revision 2 and 3? Didn't see that this was answered elsewhere.

Regarding the Rev 3, it has slight changes on the PCB to accomodate our new advanced Heatsink,
custom built for our singles. We expect a considerable increase in heat-tolerance and improved
heat evacuation. Some modifications are made to the enclosure as well.


Good Luck,

[e21]

Received the following response about 3 hours ago to my query about Rev 3 single and Rig Box

Yes, orders today will receive Rev 3 and lead time is still 4-6 weeks and Rig box lead is 12-15 weeks.

Thanks for your interest.

Sonny K.
BFLabs, Inc.

What is the difference between revision 2 and 3? Didn't see that this was answered elsewhere.

Regarding the Rev 3, it has slight changes on the PCB to accomodate our new advanced Heatsink,
custom built for our singles. We expect a considerable increase in heat-tolerance and improved
heat evacuation. Some modifications are made to the enclosure as well.


Good Luck,

Thanks for the speedy response BFL; just placed an order for my first 

[Epoch]

i'm not saying there is anything wrong with mining and selling on mtgox, nor was i trying to imply that there was any increase in coins being sold if mining was further diversified amongst new miners, just that if mine and dump is all they do, they don't benifit bitcoins advancement.

personally, i'd rather my grandmother accepted bitcoin for her incredible baked goods then have her set up a mining rig.

yes, mining helped spread the popularity of bitcoin.  i'm of the opinion that we've reaped the majority of the benefits there.  sure, there may be some additional popularity gains to be gained from making mining more popular, but as mentioned, your not considering that the more popular mining gets, the less profitable it becomes.  its a way forward that shoots itself in the face.  show people that they can donate to wikileaks even though paypal and vc/mc tried shutting them down, show them they can pay for their offshore seedbox anonymously, show torrent sites they can accept donations and pay for their servers anonymously and be insulated from corporate payment processors actions, show individuals and companies that they can save a non negligable percentage on processing fees, and then use those same bitcoins to puchase items for their company and profits in bitcoin can be spent for their personal needs desires...then and only then will bitcoin start seeping more steadily, more permanently into the mainstream.

as long as the bulk of the bitcoin economy consists of miners dumping bitcoin on exchanges and speculators, it will remain fragile.  strength and permanence will only be gained through broad and diverse use of bitcoin as a tool of commerce and money transfer.

Agreed. I misinterpreted your initial comments. Mining is only a small, but necessary, fraction of the current bitcoin landscape; I too hope bitcoin diversifies further than it has. More miners coming to town don't help much; but people setting up barber shops, saloons, supermarkets, banks, blacksmiths, etc., do. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

[wogaut]

personally, i'd rather my grandmother accepted bitcoin for her incredible baked goods then have her set up a mining rig.

Fantastic *rotflol*

you don't mind if I borrow it for my signature (I'll quote you)?

[triplehelix]

epoch, i definitely dig the wild west analogy.  i think it works on a few levels.  i'm going to get started on that bitbrothel.

go for it wogaut.  quote me freely, although i retain all commercial rights

[Brunic]

Dude, there's only two way to get Bitcoins:
-Mining them
-Being on the receiving part of a transaction.

If you want people to spend Bitcoins, they need to get them first. Mining already had a crazy impact on Bitcoin popularity, and giving a better accessibility will just add to this impact.

I'll be happy when my grand-mother will be able to mine her own Bitcoins to spend, not before.

silly me, i was under the impression there were wide and diverse means to get bitcoins.  things like exchanges, otc markets, and to a lesser extent meat space exchanging.  i must also be mistaken that people are acquiring bitcoin by selling services and products like on silkroad, bitmit and other online companies:

What do you think "Being on the receiving part of a transaction" meant?

yes, mining helped spread the popularity of bitcoin.  i'm of the opinion that we've reaped the majority of the benefits there.  sure, there may be some additional popularity gains to be gained from making mining more popular, but as mentioned, your not considering that the more popular mining gets, the less profitable it becomes.  its a way forward that shoots itself in the face.  show people that they can donate to wikileaks even though paypal and vc/mc tried shutting them down, show them they can pay for their offshore seedbox anonymously, show torrent sites they can accept donations and pay for their servers anonymously and be insulated from corporate payment processors actions, show individuals and companies that they can save a non negligable percentage on processing fees, and then use those same bitcoins to puchase items for their company and profits in bitcoin can be spent for their personal needs desires...then and only then will bitcoin start seeping more steadily, more permanently into the mainstream.

as long as the bulk of the bitcoin economy consists of miners dumping bitcoin on exchanges and speculators, it will remain fragile.  strength and permanence will only be gained through broad and diverse use of bitcoin as a tool of commerce and money transfer.

You still need Bitcoins first before you donate or buy. Mining is the "click here to print money" button. For somebody who already have a computer running and consuming electricity, mining will not make a big difference and it is a easy and safe way to experiment and discover Bitcoins. It's not about mining with a profit, it's to educate with mining. Education and business is not the same thing, and have really different goals.

Every means that help spread Bitcoins in different pockets needs to be encouraged. And that include exchanges, shops, donations, lottery and yes, mining.

My point is that in time he won't be earning 3-4 BTC per month he will be getting 0.1 BTC per month "for free" and paying 20 BTC in electricity to get it.

Mining to educate about Bitcoins. I don't care if they pay too much electricity at first, they'll learn by themselves and they will take a decision accordingly. But at that point, they'll know what Bitcoin is, they will probably have a couple of Bitcoins and they will continue to read and learn by themselves. The biggest obstacle for Bitcoin is having a wallet with 0 BTC.

[Red Emerald]

My point is that in time he won't be earning 3-4 BTC per month he will be getting 0.1 BTC per month "for free" and paying 20 BTC in electricity to get it.

Mining to educate about Bitcoins. I don't care if they pay too much electricity at first, they'll learn by themselves and they will take a decision accordingly. But at that point, they'll know what Bitcoin is, they will probably have a couple of Bitcoins and they will continue to read and learn by themselves. The biggest obstacle for Bitcoin is having a wallet with 0 BTC.

CPU mining used to be a great way to get involved in Bitcoin.  The vast majority of miners (including me) came in too late for CPU mining to be worth it.

I think the wasted electricity does matter.  I wish bitcoin could survive without needing such environmentally expensive proof-of-work.

If your grandma just want a few bitcents to learn, thats what the bitcoin faucet is for.  Or how about you sell your grandma coins that you mined.  IMO getting a mining rig running at grandma's house is not going to launch bitcoin into mainstream.

[Brunic]

If your grandma just want a few bitcents to learn, thats what the bitcoin faucet is for.  Or how about you sell your grandma coins that you mined.  IMO getting a mining rig running at grandma's house is not going to launch bitcoin into mainstream.

I agree with that. No way setting up a mining rig for my grandma is going to launch bitcoin into mainstream.

But having software like Easyminer bundled with the Bitcoin software, with only a button to push "Click here to print money", that could help bring more people. Right now, by itself, the Bitcoin software does nothing to help people get Bitcoin, especially when their wallet is at 0. It had a Mining button before, but was removed. I know that today, a solo mining button is useless, but a pool mining button could certainly had a use.

*EDIT*
I feel like I'm hijacking this thread really hard, and I'll stop commenting on that issue. BTW, nice job for the Easyminer!

[TheSeven]

BitFORCE Single support has finally hit the MPBM testing branch!

Available here: https://github.com/TheSeven/Modular-Python-Bitcoin-Miner/tree/testing

I appreciate any feedback!

If you run into any issues, please contact me on IRC: #mpbm on irc.freenode.net

[guruvan]

These bring the bitcoin mining game within the reach of the "average" entrepreneur. Without having to make the primary concern the technical aspects of mining, more actual mining businesses will show up. Thee geekier types may have some types of advantages, while the business types have others. I don't know that it will bring more people, so much as make those interested entrepreneurs not walk away from a too-technical, too high risk venture.

FPGAs (and sooon ASICs) plus the reward drop will "separate the men from the boys" to be sure, and the ones who will be profitable are those who can run a business, not (necessarily) the geekiest. Who's not going to be mining in a year is the home hobbyist (grandma).

The ease of use made these an easy sell to my partner. Whether we mine for EMC or somewhere else, I know that I have a simple to use system, that I can have less technical members of the crew manage.

[abeaulieu]

So does anyone have an information about the production status of Rev2?

Are they being ordered? assembled? shipped?

My order is binned in Rev3 (pretty kick-ass heat sink by the looks), so I'm curious when Rev3 will begin cropping up.

[Epoch]

So does anyone have an information about the production status of Rev2?
Are they being ordered? assembled? shipped?
My order is binned in Rev3 (pretty kick-ass heat sink by the looks), so I'm curious when Rev3 will begin cropping up.

Um, if you have an active order that is binned for Rev3, why don't you ask BFL your questions directly instead of soliciting useless speculation here? Bottom line: BFL knows; we don't.

[JWU42]

So does anyone have an information about the production status of Rev2?

Are they being ordered? assembled? shipped?

My order is binned in Rev3 (pretty kick-ass heat sink by the looks), so I'm curious when Rev3 will begin cropping up.

4-6 weeks per Sonny  - asked him this week and posted somewhere on the forums...

[jamesg]

So does anyone have an information about the production status of Rev2?

Are they being ordered? assembled? shipped?

My order is binned in Rev3 (pretty kick-ass heat sink by the looks), so I'm curious when Rev3 will begin cropping up.

I have received 6 rev2 so far. 4 more are arriving shortly.

[jamesg]

A little birdy dropped these in my inbox so I thought I would share.





These will be used in both the single rev3 and the rig box (or mini rig box) also.