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Author Topic: Scientific proof that God exists?  (Read 845453 times)
1aguar
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September 02, 2015, 04:28:33 AM
 #5381

1967...  Roll Eyes
Guess we will have to wait for the next batch of children to born to repeat the experience. Oh, wait!...
 Roll Eyes

Still waiting for an atheist to form a rational reply to the evidence; by no means is your reply a criticism of Dr. Stevenson's research.

It does not matter when a scientific study is done; this is one study of many that I referenced, and if you think that old science is bad science, then you have another think coming!

By the way, if you had done some reading, you would have seen this text in the very same point that was referenced:

Quote
On June 11, 1992, at Princeton University, Dr. Ian Stevenson presented a paper entitled: "Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons" providing scientific evidence suggestive of reincarnation which was published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration. These findings support reincarnation in NDE research findings as well.
http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html#a39
BCEmporium
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September 02, 2015, 05:50:05 AM
 #5382

You didn't understand, did you?
What you've there isn't science, it's called pseudo-science and it's based upon "observations" and "deductions". The funny part is the peer-review claim and yet, past 48 years of the last claim no valid review exists. And if such exists then the kid will come speaking in Aramaic, Latin or other ancient language.  Grin

And about "old science is bad science", when it comes to medicine it is for sure! If you get a respiratory disease that 1967's doc would recommend you to start smoking 3 packages of Marlboro a day, and the 1922's one will give you some cocaine. Grin

That site reminds me of CBS Reality shows about paranormal activity. Always dots filmed with a very old camcorder and interferences caught with old radios... guess the ghosts don't like HD and digital recording...  Roll Eyes

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1aguar
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September 02, 2015, 07:50:59 AM
 #5383

You didn't understand, did you?
What you've there isn't science, it's called pseudo-science and it's based upon "observations" and "deductions". The funny part is the peer-review claim and yet, past 48 years of the last claim no valid review exists. And if such exists then the kid will come speaking in Aramaic, Latin or other ancient language.  Grin
There are many reviews and replication studies of Stevenson's work; there is even detailed criticism, but it does not measure up to the weight of the strong cases.
In 1975, in a review of Stevenson's "Cases of the Reincarnation Type" in the Journal of the American Medical Association, Dr. Lester S. King concluded that Stevenson had "painstakingly and unemotionally collected a detailed series of cases in India, cases in which the evidence for reincarnation is difficult to understand on any other grounds....[H]e has placed on record a large amount of data that cannot be ignored."

In any case, one can run (further) experiments and investigations, or one can realize that the evidence (52 salient points) already merits a conclusion, and that a discovery is at hand. NDEs have already advanced the fields of philosophy (point #24), psychology (#21), and genomics (#20). People having NDEs have even brought back scientific discoveries (#19, #20)!

Because there already exists a substantial amount of anecdotal evidence supporting veridical perception [during a "Near-Death Experience"], it may only be a matter of time before hard, scientific evidence of an afterlife is found.

Even more importantly: Skeptical arguments against NDEs are not valid (#34-36, and others). NDEs support the reality of rebirth (#38). I conclude that the burden of proof has shifted to skeptics of an afterlife (#36).

It simply will not do to reject all qualitative observations. Many lines of evidence unite in supporting the reality of rebirth (#37). The rhetorical opinions of some NDE theories are presented as if they were scientific. Many skeptical arguments against the survival theory are actually arguments from pseudo-skeptics who often think they have no burden of proof. Pseudo-skeptical arguments are sometimes made that do not consider the entire body of circumstantial evidence supporting the possibility of survival or do not consider the possibility of new paradigms. Such pseudo-skeptical claims are often made without any scientific evidence.

Also, if the dying brain creates NDE illusions, what is the purpose for doing it? If our brains are only a high-tech computer-like lump of tissue which produces our mind and personality, why does it bother to create illusions at the time of death? Even if NDE elements can be reduced to only a series of brain reactions, this does not negate the idea that NDEs are more than a brain thing.

And about "old science is bad science", when it comes to medicine it is for sure! If you get a respiratory disease that 1967's doc would recommend you to start smoking 3 packages of Marlboro a day, and the 1922's one will give you some cocaine. Grin
Ah, but you are possibly unaware that medicine is not a science! So, old science does not necessarily make for bad science, these reincarnation studies can be replicated, and the lessons learned upon replication (check the literature) stimulate the self-correcting process and improve systematic controls in future studies, strengthening the quality of the evidence.

Here is an example of strong controls being implemented, the result is evidence of veridical perception during NDE which supports the hypothesis (survival), and shows that more research is merited in order to record even stronger evidence; this is science at its finest and there is nothing "funny" about it:

Quoting from the recent AWARE study:
"One case was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest... [C]onsciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events."

“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.”

That site reminds me of CBS Reality shows about paranormal activity. Always dots filmed with a very old camcorder and interferences caught with old radios... guess the ghosts don't like HD and digital recording...  Roll Eyes
Surprise! There does exist Supporting Material in the Form of Direct Evidence
Transcommunication is an umbrella term used for many types of trans-etheric influence. Visual and audible forms of Instrumental TransCommunication (ITC) produce important forms of objective evidence.
The fact of anomalous voices and images is well-established and mundane explanations have not explained their existence. In some instances, visual ITC images have been identified as clearly indicating a known discarnate person. The nature of EVP (Electronic Voice Phenomena) is better understood and they provide most of the supporting evidence for survival. Common characteristics of EVP that indicate intelligent interaction with an aware personality include direct response to questions, comments about local activity and reference to prior activity.
The direct implication of ITC is that the communicating personality is the same as that of the person while still in a lifetime, but now operating under different circumstances.
It is easily seen how TransCommunication relates to what is often referred to as the best evidence for survival--OBE, NDE, reincarnation, and mediumship. Check the ethericstudies site for more details on ITC, perhaps after you have reviewed the 52 points on the near-death site (especially point #49).
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September 02, 2015, 08:00:21 AM
 #5384

points to ponder... If we are made of normal particles... is god made of god particles?

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September 02, 2015, 08:39:24 AM
 #5385

OMG! What sites are those? Made by Microsoft's Frontpage 97 fan club webmasters?!

Anyway, I love this study results! Fully peer-verifiable:

Patients with cardiac arrest: 2060
Went to full death experience: 1730

Of the survivals:

Too ill to reply to anything: 188
Thinks the doc was crazy: 2

Of the remaining 140:

Feel nothing, no memories: 85
Feel "something", have memories: 55

Out of those 55 more "esoteric":

Ruled out of NDE - too much accuracy didn't lost conscience: 46
Memories but none of which visual or auditive: 7
Full NDE with visual and auditive: 2

Of the 2 spiritual patients:
Ruled out due to lack of accuracy: 1
The master of all NDE: 1

So, your study got 1 result out of 2060 samples. This proves what? That 1:2060 people wears an used soul, or 1:2060 is better on making up stories?
The only time I fainted, speaking of personal experience, I felt... nothing. Just lights out, stop to feel my own weight and just remember to wake up... wasn't a NDE, but was the closest to it.

And I can't provide evidence, because it's impossible to provide evidence of what doesn't exist. That's what "negative proof" stands for.
I can't prove you don't reincarnate or go to heaven in the very same way you can't prove to me there's no Santa or there's no Bigfoot.
What I can say is that heavens cause a paradox, reincarnation doesn't, may be plausible but just due to the lack of logical arguments to deny.

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September 02, 2015, 01:58:37 PM
 #5386

points to ponder... If we are made of normal particles... is god made of god particles?

That's an interesting idea. Does God have a physical form or not? If God does have a physical form does it have a gender? If it does have a gender and you had sex with it, would it be the best sex ever? lol

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September 02, 2015, 03:19:44 PM
 #5387

points to ponder... If we are made of normal particles... is god made of god particles?

That's an interesting idea. Does God have a physical form or not? If God does have a physical form does it have a gender? If it does have a gender and you had sex with it, would it be the best sex ever? lol

Personally, I believe God has a physical form. But, His physical form relates only to His Heaven of Heavens.

We relate only to the things of our universe, because that is all we can do. To us, the universe means everything, because we have been designed for it. "Outside of the universe," while a nice thought, doesn't make any logical sense to us, because for us, the universe is everything. Because of this, God is only visualized as a spirit by people.

I believe that because He made us in His image, that if we were "translated" to His Heaven of Heavens, we would recognize a physical form for Him. Remember, even in this world, the resurrected Jesus-God had a physical form that was physical, even though it was capable of doing things that ours are not.

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September 02, 2015, 03:32:28 PM
 #5388

I'd just realize there's an issue with reincarnation;

Let's assume reincarnation is real, then:

What purpouse does it serve taken you are unable to recall any of your past lives?!
Would be pretty much of an useless ability, won't it?

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September 02, 2015, 03:43:03 PM
 #5389

I'd just realize there's an issue with reincarnation;

Let's assume reincarnation is real, then:

What purpouse does it serve taken you are unable to recall any of your past lives?!
Would be pretty much of an useless ability, won't it?

No, it makes perfect sense. God bought his soul maker from alibaba and they ran out of stock and couldn't get any more. He has to reuse souls but wants you to believe his soul maker is still in perfect working order so he makes the reincarnated souls boot up to a fresh clean slate every time.

Hey, it makes as much sense and any of the other religious drivel everyone believes!

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September 02, 2015, 03:53:11 PM
 #5390

points to ponder... If we are made of normal particles... is god made of god particles?

That's an interesting idea. Does God have a physical form or not? If God does have a physical form does it have a gender? If it does have a gender and you had sex with it, would it be the best sex ever? lol

Personally, I believe God has a physical form. But, His physical form relates only to His Heaven of Heavens.

We relate only to the things of our universe, because that is all we can do. To us, the universe means everything, because we have been designed for it. "Outside of the universe," while a nice thought, doesn't make any logical sense to us, because for us, the universe is everything. Because of this, God is only visualized as a spirit by people.

I believe that because He made us in His image, that if we were "translated" to His Heaven of Heavens, we would recognize a physical form for Him. Remember, even in this world, the resurrected Jesus-God had a physical form that was physical, even though it was capable of doing things that ours are not.

Smiley

I just have to pose the question of, what is the origin of your God?

If you decide to say something around the lines of, "He is eternal," then I'd like to propose that if this in fact is true, then God must be an atheist.

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September 02, 2015, 03:56:56 PM
 #5391

This might be relevant to the discussion: http://www.youtube.com/v/p7UwpIV2MqY&fs
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September 02, 2015, 05:08:34 PM
 #5392

OMG! What sites are those? Made by Microsoft's Frontpage 97 fan club webmasters?!
Surely the references are more valuable than the websites themselves. Why not critique the references? Oh, I see that you have critiqued one reference of mine; let's see if your critique stands up to the evidence...

Anyway, I love this study results! Fully peer-verifiable:

So, your study got 1 result out of 2060 samples. This proves what? That 1:2060 people wears an used soul, or 1:2060 is better on making up stories?
What does it prove?
This proves that indeed there was 1 verifiable result of veridical perception during a period when the brain absolutely could not function. What is the problem with that conclusion?
Oh, I see you claim that the patient is "good at making up stories"? How would that work, exactly?
I suppose that the woman with the OBE in point #9 was simply "good at guessing a five-digit number"?
And then for points #19, #20, you would presumably claim that these people were good at "making up" valid scientific theories and predictions? Same for #27?

These controls were put in place in order to eliminate the possibility of making up stories, effective methods were used so it is highly surprising that even 1 case was verified, so it cannot be dismissed, but still more research needs to be done. I am glad we can agree that this is an example of good science.

And I can't provide evidence, because it's impossible to provide evidence of what doesn't exist. That's what "negative proof" stands for.
I can't prove you don't reincarnate or go to heaven in the very same way you can't prove to me there's no Santa or there's no Bigfoot.
What I can say is that heavens cause a paradox, reincarnation doesn't, may be plausible but just due to the lack of logical arguments to deny.

Reincarnation is plausible due to the evidence of veridical perception and veridical memories in many forms of experience; 52 points summarize the evidence gained from experience; it is totally dishonest to dismiss all qualitative data with the "making up stories" hypothesis because it is a totally inadequate explanation, it does not fit the NDE. There is even a cool study from PLOS ONE referenced in point #52 which provides strong evidence that these experiences are not made up. I suggest you dig further into these scientific references and consider the entire body of circumstantial evidence supporting the possibility of survival while being open to new paradigms.

It is also important to mention that NDEs cannot be explained by brain chemistry alone, that they change people unlike hallucinations and dreams, and that the skeptical theories surrounding NDEs have many flaws. Therefore, the burden of proof is upon skeptics to show how the materialist paradigm can explain the facts surrounding NDE; you have not supplied any scientific evidence to back up your assertion that these stories are made up, indeed there is good science in point #52 and others that refutes this idea, so I do suggest that you first provide a hypothesis that actually fits the observations, then you can gather evidence to support this (perhaps by doing replication studies).
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September 02, 2015, 05:18:39 PM
 #5393

Yes, but what purpose would that serve?

You can't recall anything from who or what you were! Karma punishments?! The whole sense of justice requires the convicted to know why he was convicted, otherwise makes no sense at all.

Or is just like QA said; God's soul supplier at AliBaba went out of stock so he recycles and refurnish souls?

But I've to say that would be fun if you could recall your past lives, and we won't be doing this discussion over far-fetched fabricated results by people who saw what they want to see in the first place, we would have empirical evidence.
Just imagine, two US soldiers during Iraq invasion:
-Man, when I was Abdul Muhammad I used to take black coffee in that corner right there. That other guy there - shouts ALI! - was my cousin, he can't recognize me now.
 Grin

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September 02, 2015, 05:22:54 PM
 #5394

I'd just realize there's an issue with reincarnation;

Let's assume reincarnation is real, then:

What purpose does it serve taken you are unable to recall any of your past lives?!
Would be pretty much of an useless ability, won't it?

It is possible to recall past lives. See points #39 and #41.
http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html

It is unclear what you mean by "ability" and by what criteria it is "useless".

The evidence supports survival, and it refutes the humanist worldview. The idea that "you only live once" is useless because it has been falsified, same with the idea that Man is the founder of all knowledge.
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September 02, 2015, 05:24:27 PM
 #5395

Yes, but what purpose would that serve?

You can't recall anything from who or what you were! Karma punishments?! The whole sense of justice requires the convicted to know why he was convicted, otherwise makes no sense at all.

Or is just like QA said; God's soul supplier at AliBaba went out of stock so he recycles and refurnish souls?

Go and read the Phoenix Journals, starting with Journal #27.
You can also use the search feature on this page; very useful.

You don't understand God? Read the truth about God in the Journals!
I suggest that you print them out to avoid the EMF radiation coming from your computer.
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September 02, 2015, 05:27:59 PM
 #5396

Quote
The idea that "you only live once" is useless because it has been falsified

Just because you said so and some crackpots who get 1 possible result out of thousands?
Again, we don't do things for nothing: what purpose would such ability have? And no, nobody can recall anything, now we're moving goal posts to witchcraft scams - AKA paranormal activities... and if you go down that road then I've to assume Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Cleopatra had multiple souls, taken for the number of people they reincarnated in.  Tongue

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September 02, 2015, 06:16:34 PM
 #5397

Quote
The idea that "you only live once" is useless because it has been falsified

Just because you said so and some crackpots who get 1 possible result out of thousands?
There was 1 verifiable result of veridical perception during a period when the brain absolutely could not function. What is the problem with that conclusion? I think it is remarkable, it definitely needs more study.
52 points support this idea.
The burden of proof is upon skeptics to show how the materialist paradigm can explain the facts surrounding NDE; you have not supplied any scientific evidence to back up your assertion that these stories are made up, indeed there is good science in point #52 and others that refutes this idea, so I do suggest that you first provide a hypothesis that actually fits the observations.

Again, we don't do things for nothing: what purpose would such ability have? And no, nobody can recall anything, now we're moving goal posts to witchcraft scams - AKA paranormal activities... and if you go down that road then I've to assume Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Cleopatra had multiple souls, taken for the number of people they reincarnated in.  Tongue
What is the "ability" you refer to?
The survival hypothesis does not propose a purpose or mechanism behind the personality transfer. It stands on its own as a scientific hypothesis without needing a purpose or mechanism.
If you are still confused, I suggest you read A Critique of Arguments Offered Against Reincarnation by Robert Almeder and other books and papers by this author.

Point #39 is valid because Stevenson's research is generally excellent and same goes for most reincarnation research; even a hardened skeptic recently admitted that this evidence was strong. Even Sam Harris made this admission about Stevenson: "Either he is a victim of truly elaborate fraud, or something interesting is going on".

Point #41: Regression during Hypnotherapy is valid evidence; The (5) main reason why at least some of these claims must be considered as evidence are outlined in the link; I am tired of copy-pasting everything from that page into this thread.

It simply will not do to reject all of these qualitative observations. What hypothesis would you use to explain them??
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September 02, 2015, 06:18:44 PM
 #5398

points to ponder... If we are made of normal particles... is god made of god particles?

That's an interesting idea. Does God have a physical form or not? If God does have a physical form does it have a gender? If it does have a gender and you had sex with it, would it be the best sex ever? lol

Personally, I believe God has a physical form. But, His physical form relates only to His Heaven of Heavens.

We relate only to the things of our universe, because that is all we can do. To us, the universe means everything, because we have been designed for it. "Outside of the universe," while a nice thought, doesn't make any logical sense to us, because for us, the universe is everything. Because of this, God is only visualized as a spirit by people.

I believe that because He made us in His image, that if we were "translated" to His Heaven of Heavens, we would recognize a physical form for Him. Remember, even in this world, the resurrected Jesus-God had a physical form that was physical, even though it was capable of doing things that ours are not.

Smiley

I just have to pose the question of, what is the origin of your God?

If you decide to say something around the lines of, "He is eternal," then I'd like to propose that if this in fact is true, then God must be an atheist.

"Origin" has to do with things in this universe. People are all extremely familiar with "origin" because they are aware that they had one. God is so extremely much greater than mankind that, if He had an origin, the substance and meaning of it would be way beyond anything mankind could begin to comprehend in any way. In fact, God is so great beyond mankind that, to mankind, even if God did have an origin, God would not only seem eternal, but He WOULD be eternal in every way.

Smiley

Cure your cancer at home. Ivermectin, fenbendazole, methylene blue, and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) are chief among parasite drugs. Find out that all disease is based in parasites or pollution, and what you can easily do about it - https://www.huldaclark.com/.
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September 02, 2015, 06:21:25 PM
 #5399

Quote
The idea that "you only live once" is useless because it has been falsified

Just because you said so and some crackpots who get 1 possible result out of thousands?
There was 1 verifiable result of veridical perception during a period when the brain absolutely could not function. What is the problem with that conclusion? I think it is remarkable, it definitely needs more study.
52 points support this idea.
The burden of proof is upon skeptics to show how the materialist paradigm can explain the facts surrounding NDE; you have not supplied any scientific evidence to back up your assertion that these stories are made up, indeed there is good science in point #52 and others that refutes this idea, so I do suggest that you first provide a hypothesis that actually fits the observations.

Again, we don't do things for nothing: what purpose would such ability have? And no, nobody can recall anything, now we're moving goal posts to witchcraft scams - AKA paranormal activities... and if you go down that road then I've to assume Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Cleopatra had multiple souls, taken for the number of people they reincarnated in.  Tongue
What is the "ability" you refer to?
The survival hypothesis does not propose a purpose or mechanism behind the personality transfer. It stands on its own as a scientific hypothesis without needing a purpose or mechanism.
If you are still confused, I suggest you read A Critique of Arguments Offered Against Reincarnation by Robert Almeder and other books and papers by this author.

Point #39 is valid because Stevenson's research is generally excellent and same goes for most reincarnation research; even a hardened skeptic recently admitted that this evidence was strong. Even Sam Harris made this admission about Stevenson: "Either he is a victim of truly elaborate fraud, or something interesting is going on".

Point #41: Regression during Hypnotherapy is valid evidence; The (5) main reason why at least some of these claims must be considered as evidence are outlined in the link; I am tired of copy-pasting everything from that page into this thread.

It simply will not do to reject all of these qualitative observations. What hypothesis would you use to explain them??

Actually, it will satisfactorily suffice to reject all the claims, because nobody knows where the claims come from. All suggestions of where they come from are hearsay.

Smiley

Cure your cancer at home. Ivermectin, fenbendazole, methylene blue, and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) are chief among parasite drugs. Find out that all disease is based in parasites or pollution, and what you can easily do about it - https://www.huldaclark.com/.
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September 02, 2015, 06:25:23 PM
 #5400

Now that we have proven scientifically that God exists, go the next step and investigate the Bible.

The things surrounding the coming into being of the Bible show that it is an impossible-to-exist book. The only way that it could exist as it is and as it has come about, is through the miraculous guidance of an all-powerful God. Same said for the universe and mankind.

Smiley

Cure your cancer at home. Ivermectin, fenbendazole, methylene blue, and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) are chief among parasite drugs. Find out that all disease is based in parasites or pollution, and what you can easily do about it - https://www.huldaclark.com/.
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