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Author Topic: BitBay |Decentralized Marketplace|Smart Contracts|IoT Tech|Markets Open  (Read 339387 times)
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digicidal
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November 25, 2014, 11:43:13 AM
Last edit: November 25, 2014, 11:54:19 AM by digicidal
 #2081

As there seems to be some confusion about staking from some who may not have had experience with PoS coins (and particularly PoS 2.0 staking) here are my findings/research/etc. from BlackCoin which definitely apply (as it's the first PoS 2.0):

In a PoS 1.0 coin you 'banked' coin-age and weight... i.e. if you have 1M coins which stake at 1% per year and you wait one year before unlocking and staking that wallet (actually one year plus 8 hours or whatever the minimum age is set to)... you will receive 10K coins as your staking reward - plus any fees awarded for the block, same as you will now actually.  However the difference is that this will occur nearly instantaneously in PoS 1.0 because your coins will have a very large weight (somewhere around 365 million in fact).  The problem with this is that it would potentially allow for a smaller holding wallet to be more likely to craft a 51% attack because once this wallet comes online to stake it will have a significantly higher weight than anyone who has been staking all along - even if that other person has 10M coins in their wallet (since those coins will likely have staked within the past day or so the 'competing weight' will be 36 times less despite representing a coin-value of 10 times more).

That this compounded the already widely discussed issues of PoW/PoS hybrid coins and the 'nothing-at-stake' issue caused a need for improvement.

To solve this Pavel (rat4) adjusted staking (in PoS 2.0 - see whitepaper) so that weight disregards coin-age... so that means that while your award can be made artificially large in a single transaction by keeping a wallet offline and all coins from a single transaction - that wallet will have no greater possibility for solving a block than a similar sized wallet which has been online the entire time.  So someone has next to no possibility to 'guess' when their blocks will occur, simply by remaining offline - thus next to no possibility to use that maliciously to fork the chain and potentially double-spend (and all the more reason to stay online helping to secure the blockchain 24/7).  Wink

What this means for a normal wallet holder is that your holdings are the only thing making it more likely that you will 'win' your stake.  Someone with 10M BAY which is all mature will have a 10X greater chance of getting the next block than someone with 1M BAY does... and that person will have a similarly greater chance than someone with 100K BAY has. However, rest assured that once your turn occurs... even if that takes a month... then your award will be the appropriate size (somewhere around 0.000027397 per coin - or 1% divided by 365 - multiplied by the coin-age).  If it takes a month then you'll get 30 times as much, once awarded... but it won't be any more likely to solve the next block than it was on day 1.

I think the problem many people are encountering is that a ton of BAY are still on BTER (or Bittrex now).  So those that moved coins into their wallets earliest had a very high probability of staking quickly - since competition for the blocks was limited.  As more and more people move their coins into the wallet and off of the exchange - this will naturally make the time between block awards longer as well, since more people are in the 'lottery' in the first place.

It may seem like it sucks... but it's actually making for a much, much more secure blockchain (and you get basically the same amount... just more coins less often). Smiley

Ultimately it would be great (security-wise) to see distribution so wide that none of us would get more than a few staking awards per year... but we're at least a couple million wallets away from that situation. LOL!

If I've confused something or made a mistake, please post a correction - it's been a long day.  Undecided
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November 25, 2014, 11:53:44 AM
 #2082

As there seems to be some confusion about staking from some who may not have had experience with PoS coins (and particularly PoS 2.0 staking) here are my findings/research/etc. from BlackCoin which definitely apply (as it's the first PoS 2.0):

In a PoS 1.0 coin you 'banked' coin-age and weight... i.e. if you have 1M coins which stake at 1% per year and you wait one year before unlocking and staking that wallet (actually one year plus 8 hours or whatever the minimum age is set to)... you will receive 10K coins as your staking reward - plus any fees awarded for the block, same as you will now actually.  However the difference is that this will occur nearly instantaneously in PoS 1.0 because your coins will have a very large weight (somewhere around 365 million in fact).  The problem with this is that it would potentially allow for a smaller holding wallet to be more likely to craft a 51% attack because once this wallet comes online to stake it will have a significantly higher weight than anyone who has been staking all along - even if that other person has 10M coins in their wallet (since those coins will likely have staked within the past day or so the 'competing weight' will be 36 times less despite representing a coin-value of 10 times more).

That this compounded the already widely discussed issues of PoW/PoS hybrid coins and the 'nothing-at-stake' issue caused a need for improvement.

To solve this Pavel (rat4) adjusted staking (in PoS 2.0 - see whitepaper) so that weight disregards coin-age... so that means that while your award can be made artificially large in a single transaction by keeping a wallet offline, and all coins in a single transaction - that wallet will have no greater possibility for solving a block than a similar sized wallet which has been online the entire time.  So someone has next to no possibility to 'guess' when their blocks will occur, simply by remaining offline - thus next to no possibility to use that maliciously to fork the chain and potentially double-spend (and all the more reason to stay online helping to secure the blockchain 24/7).  Wink

What this means for a normal wallet holder is that your holdings are the only thing making it more likely that you will 'win' your stake.  Someone with 10M BAY which is all mature will have a 10X greater chance of getting the next block than someone with 1M BAY does... and that person will have a similarly greater chance than someone with 100K BAY has. However, rest assured that once your turn occurs... even if that takes a month... than your award will be the appropriate size (somewhere around 0.000027397 per coin - or 1% divided by 365).  If it takes a month then you'll get 30 times as much once awarded... but it won't be any more likely to solve the next block than it was on day 1.

I think the problem many people are encountering is that a ton of BAY are still on BTER (or Bittrex now).  So those that moved coins into their wallets earliest had a very high probability of staking quickly - since competition for the blocks was limited.  As more and more people move their coins into the wallet and off of the exchange - this will naturally make the time between block awards longer as well, since more people are in the 'lottery' in the first place.

It may seem like it sucks... but it's actually making for a much, much more secure blockchain (and you get basically the same amount... just more coins less often). Smiley

Ultimately it would be great (security-wise) to see distribution so wide that none of us would get more than a few staking awards per year... but we're at least a couple million wallets away from that situation. LOL!

If I've confused something or made a mistake, please post a correction - it's been a long day.  Undecided

Thanks. that makes sense. I don't care if I receive it today or a month from now as long as I receive it.  

If person A is staking and it takes a month before he receives his reward. If he decides to sell his coins on day 29th. Would he still receive the reward on day 30th? It sounds like there is no way to tell  how long you'll have to wait before receiving reward?




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digicidal
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November 25, 2014, 11:55:52 AM
 #2083

that makes sense. I don't care if I receive it today or a month from now as long as I receive it.  

If person A is staking and it takes a month before he receives his reward. If he decides to sell his coins on day 29th. Would he still receive the reward on day 30th?

Unfortunately no.  Because the coin-age is 'destroyed' (Edit: better to say "reset" I suppose) in any transaction for the coins involved.  So whether they stake or you transfer them... they 'arrive' at their destination with a zero coin-age value. Sad

To answer the second part - there is no way to tell, but it actually is very fair considering the speed of the blocks and the fact that any coins that have staked are taken out of the equation for at least 8 hours.  There is more to the 'lottery' aspect (as far as who gets awarded a block).  My BC holdings are a fairly minor amount (of the total at least) but I still usually see some stake within 4-5 days or so.  AFAIK there are more active staking wallets in BC than in BAY... so should be even faster here, but hard to say for sure.
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November 25, 2014, 12:09:09 PM
 #2084

that makes sense. I don't care if I receive it today or a month from now as long as I receive it.  

If person A is staking and it takes a month before he receives his reward. If he decides to sell his coins on day 29th. Would he still receive the reward on day 30th?

Unfortunately no.  Because the coin-age is 'destroyed' (Edit: better to say "reset" I suppose) in any transaction for the coins involved.  So whether they stake or you transfer them... they 'arrive' at their destination with a zero coin-age value. Sad

To answer the second part - there is no way to tell, but it actually is very fair considering the speed of the blocks and the fact that any coins that have staked are taken out of the equation for at least 8 hours.  There is more to the 'lottery' aspect (as far as who gets awarded a block).  My BC holdings are a fairly minor amount (of the total at least) but I still usually see some stake within 4-5 days or so.  AFAIK there are more active staking wallets in BC than in BAY... so should be even faster here, but hard to say for sure.

That was my main worry since Bay staking wallet isn't as active as BC. My BC is working fine and I don't do anything differently. I haven't received anything since 19th on Bay even though I leave it on for hours. It's syncing in timely manner though. Right now it says "Expected time to earn reward is 2 days". So, I guess I'll try to keep it on for as long as I can and check if anything changes in 2 days.

Thanks for answering my question regarding pos 2.0

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November 25, 2014, 12:19:23 PM
 #2085

That was my main worry since Bay staking wallet isn't as active as BC. My BC is working fine and I don't do anything differently. I haven't received anything since 19th on Bay even though I leave it on for hours. It's syncing in timely manner though. Right now it says "Expected time to earn reward is 2 days". So, I guess I'll try to keep it on for as long as I can and check if anything changes in 2 days.

Thanks for answering my question regarding pos 2.0

The biggest factor is still weight - so you also have to consider the network weight as well.  So if you have 10K BC staking... you have about .1% of the network weight (which is usually around 10M or ~14% of the mintage).  With BAY if you have the same 14% represented on the network at a given time... that's 140M... so a 10K BAY wallet is around .007% of the total.  If it weren't for the lottery aspect and other factors which I don't really understand fully and are better asked of Pavel or David, it would be unlikely for such a miniscule amount to ever win... kind of like mining BTC with a CPU!
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November 25, 2014, 12:43:53 PM
 #2086

Last chance to invest in BAY !
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November 25, 2014, 02:04:51 PM
 #2087

As there seems to be some confusion about staking from some who may not have had experience with PoS coins (and particularly PoS 2.0 staking) here are my findings/research/etc. from BlackCoin which definitely apply (as it's the first PoS 2.0):

In a PoS 1.0 coin you 'banked' coin-age and weight... i.e. if you have 1M coins which stake at 1% per year and you wait one year before unlocking and staking that wallet (actually one year plus 8 hours or whatever the minimum age is set to)... you will receive 10K coins as your staking reward - plus any fees awarded for the block, same as you will now actually.  However the difference is that this will occur nearly instantaneously in PoS 1.0 because your coins will have a very large weight (somewhere around 365 million in fact).  The problem with this is that it would potentially allow for a smaller holding wallet to be more likely to craft a 51% attack because once this wallet comes online to stake it will have a significantly higher weight than anyone who has been staking all along - even if that other person has 10M coins in their wallet (since those coins will likely have staked within the past day or so the 'competing weight' will be 36 times less despite representing a coin-value of 10 times more).

That this compounded the already widely discussed issues of PoW/PoS hybrid coins and the 'nothing-at-stake' issue caused a need for improvement.

To solve this Pavel (rat4) adjusted staking (in PoS 2.0 - see whitepaper) so that weight disregards coin-age... so that means that while your award can be made artificially large in a single transaction by keeping a wallet offline and all coins from a single transaction - that wallet will have no greater possibility for solving a block than a similar sized wallet which has been online the entire time.  So someone has next to no possibility to 'guess' when their blocks will occur, simply by remaining offline - thus next to no possibility to use that maliciously to fork the chain and potentially double-spend (and all the more reason to stay online helping to secure the blockchain 24/7).  Wink

What this means for a normal wallet holder is that your holdings are the only thing making it more likely that you will 'win' your stake.  Someone with 10M BAY which is all mature will have a 10X greater chance of getting the next block than someone with 1M BAY does... and that person will have a similarly greater chance than someone with 100K BAY has. However, rest assured that once your turn occurs... even if that takes a month... then your award will be the appropriate size (somewhere around 0.000027397 per coin - or 1% divided by 365 - multiplied by the coin-age).  If it takes a month then you'll get 30 times as much, once awarded... but it won't be any more likely to solve the next block than it was on day 1.

I think the problem many people are encountering is that a ton of BAY are still on BTER (or Bittrex now).  So those that moved coins into their wallets earliest had a very high probability of staking quickly - since competition for the blocks was limited.  As more and more people move their coins into the wallet and off of the exchange - this will naturally make the time between block awards longer as well, since more people are in the 'lottery' in the first place.

It may seem like it sucks... but it's actually making for a much, much more secure blockchain (and you get basically the same amount... just more coins less often). Smiley

Ultimately it would be great (security-wise) to see distribution so wide that none of us would get more than a few staking awards per year... but we're at least a couple million wallets away from that situation. LOL!

If I've confused something or made a mistake, please post a correction - it's been a long day.  Undecided

No need to apologize you've helped me out with this info (and MANY others I'm sure lol).  Thanks.

$ADK ~ watch & learn...
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November 25, 2014, 02:05:54 PM
 #2088

Last chance to invest in BAY !


Hmm not really, though I do wonder if we get a big boost when the smart contract wallet comes out.

What is the expected time for the smart wallet?

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November 25, 2014, 02:12:43 PM
 #2089

Last chance to invest in BAY !


Hmm not really, though I do wonder if we get a big boost when the smart contract wallet comes out.

What is the expected time for the smart wallet?

I would say it's never too late Grin.

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November 25, 2014, 02:32:52 PM
 #2090

Last chance to invest in BAY !


Hmm not really, though I do wonder if we get a big boost when the smart contract wallet comes out.

What is the expected time for the smart wallet?

ahaha, everybody waiting for it. i asked before and they told me it would be out this week, so let's see.
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November 25, 2014, 02:42:39 PM
 #2091

Y U NO HOLD?!


$ADK ~ watch & learn...
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November 25, 2014, 02:47:37 PM
 #2092

I thought we were getting a new demo video?

http://nem.io/
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November 25, 2014, 04:14:37 PM
 #2093

Last chance to invest in BAY !


Hmm not really, though I do wonder if we get a big boost when the smart contract wallet comes out.

What is the expected time for the smart wallet?

I don't want boost but sad to say that the way price is looking it feels like someone is organizing a boost after wallet comes out. Personally, I would prefer if there is no boost and it rises organically. Can't wait for it to become undumpable and separates itself from whole p&d game.

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November 25, 2014, 04:41:12 PM
 #2094

So what PnD groups are apart of this coin?

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November 25, 2014, 05:05:44 PM
 #2095

Last chance to invest in BAY !


Hmm not really, though I do wonder if we get a big boost when the smart contract wallet comes out.

What is the expected time for the smart wallet?

I don't want boost but sad to say that the way price is looking it feels like someone is organizing a boost after wallet comes out. Personally, I would prefer if there is no boost and it rises organically. Can't wait for it to become undumpable and separates itself from whole p&d game.


It seems to me that people are so jaded by scams they don't believe a real project that has massive potential. So to me as more of the project is reveals and people get more confident that this is first not a scam, second the project is going to work out and three people are going to use the platform. As things are revealed I don't seem them as pumps but more people edging closer to simply believing this project is actually real and will succeed. So as more and more is revealed people are naturally going to trust it. I trust it already, its everyone else I think that needs the help!  Grin

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November 25, 2014, 05:16:26 PM
 #2096

Last chance to invest in BAY !


Hmm not really, though I do wonder if we get a big boost when the smart contract wallet comes out.

What is the expected time for the smart wallet?

Afaik David said in one of his latest posts ca. one week, there are some little things he wants to implement also.
Kunfu
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November 25, 2014, 05:18:26 PM
 #2097

time to invest maybe?
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November 25, 2014, 06:06:24 PM
 #2098

time to invest maybe?

Sure i am in.  Cool
unusualfacts30
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November 25, 2014, 06:07:53 PM
 #2099

time to invest maybe?

waiting on BTC to arrive to my trex account so I can buy more. Damn BTC is slow!!!! I transferred it half an hour ago and it's still showing pending.

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November 25, 2014, 06:19:45 PM
 #2100

It's great time ti buy more indeed. I did just bough a BTC worth.  Cool

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