GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[not.you]

You know what else those emails showed (or rather didn't show)?  They showed absolutely nothing about Josh's upcoming, in a week or two, super secret farmed out all over the world project.  Nothing at all.  I also did not see anything from MasterCard about a deal.  I saw some emails between internal GAWbers talking about the news article saying that MasterCard had denied a deal, I saw emails between a GAWber or two and the reporter who ran the story asking for comment, what I did not see was anything from anyone actually working for MasterCard.  You would think there would be something, you know since there was a deal and all.

[paycum]

This pretty much sums up every single user on Hashtalk....

DKIM doesnt have to mean anything. Even if the DKIM is legit there are many other ways to create something like this. If some angry employee, hacker or whoever has root access to that domain he can create this all within 5 minutes..

Im not saying that happened, but if it looks like a frog it doesnt always mean it is a frog. Its like believing in ghosts or aliens...people who are convinced they excist always see every sign as some kind of prove...

And again im not saying you guys should stop or arent right...im just saying that every story has 2 side and as outsiders you never know what the whole story is...so all is based on assumptions instead of facts

So you're implying that "some angry employee, hacker, or whoever" can write months worth of emails in 5 minutes? Now that's impressive.

Ah I see, you must be here to replace Vlad

Hehe no im not saying that happened but yes it is possible. Not only that its easy to do. They didnt have to write anything. Those emails probably excisted but in case they are fake its just a easy altering job to make them look this way...

But who knows, nobody trust/believes nobody anymore...

And for example the mastercard story. In my opinion totally out of proportion. When a merchant files for a merchant account he does that through a processor. So yes obvious if you ask mastercard directly they arent aware of this.

Again not saying he did or did not get a debitcard approval, but come on immediately calling this a scam based on this is ridiculous.

[bumpershot]

You know what else those emails showed (or rather didn't show)?  They showed absolutely nothing about Josh's upcoming, in a week or two, super secret farmed out all over the world project.  Nothing at all.  I also did not see anything from MasterCard about a deal.  I saw some emails between internal GAWbers talking about the news article saying that MasterCard had denied a deal, I saw emails between a GAWber or two and the reporter who ran the story asking for comment, what I did not see was anything from anyone actually working for MasterCard.  You would think there would be something, you know since there was a deal and all.

Not necessarily. He could have archived that communication someplace different. And there might have been emails in the larger archive that's no longer available.

Don't get me wrong, it's total BS, but even if it were true I wouldn't necessarily expect to see anything about it in an inbox snapshot.

[5ick3uffalo]

So, we are to believe this is a $100,000,000 operation and if the accountant is put out of action they can't pay their fucking bills for a month? LMAO! Suuuuuuure Buddy!

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

[trixter]

lol you guys are so funny acting like inspector gadget, love it  

If all that stuff really is legit then damn this would be the dumbest scam ever. Do you reall think that if this was really a scam, you guys would find evidence (and so much) this easy?

There is a difference between a scam and really bad business sense.  I think that they formed a cult like belief in paycoin and everyone Josh talked to gave him positive responses so he believed it even more.  I also think that he may have embellished a bit but not outright to just scam people.  For example a deal with mastercard that could have been just like hitting up a bank to issue a mastercard debit similar to how paypal does it (a 3rd party bank issues those cards, paypal just acts as a go-between for payments and funding).  He then embellished it to be a deal *with* mastercard instead of a deal to offer mastercards.  There are programs where they would receive a percentage of the fees charged when its used as a credit card so this  could have been a good money maker aside from the downside of backing it with a volatile coin in an environment where charge backs can take 2 months.  The charge back issue is why I scrapped my bitcoin backed debit card a couple years ago, I cant afford that level of risk although I did initially talk to a few banks about getting branded cards.

As for the investor thing that may be a separate ball of wax with the hope and cult like devotion to paycoin which made him think that he could make good on the promises and leave the investor happy.  This looks more like a hope and prayer business model like a gambler hoping they will win and extremely confident in their ability but ultimately losing.  I read those emails more like he believes if he can just keep it going another week or month then it will take off and all the problems will resolve themselves.  Some of the statements appear to not understand that when taking investment money you cant use the same negotiation tactics that you might use when selling widgets.

The ease of the evidence is most likely merely an oversight.  They did not intend for everyone to be able to view the emails, but rather set up a google groups for their domain possibly without realizing the effect of that decision and their sharing policy.  This shows a tech incompetence more than anything else.

I think that there were some serious misstatements made that can have legal implications but I also know that many people do not realize how careful they have to be when selling products (contract law, FTC regulations, etc) or taking investments (SEC regulations and some criminal statutes).  Exactly what is said, how its phrased, even sometimes down to simple words and what disclosures are required come down to a myriad of laws and regulations (10 regulations for every statute congress passes).  

But what do I know I am not a lawyer I am just a poor poor student looking for work especially in coding, security, administration/engineering, or something else I can do to pay for housing, books, etc while getting my law degree.  Hire me!

[suchmoon]

And again im not saying you guys should stop or arent right...im just saying that every story has 2 side and as outsiders you never know what the whole story is...so all is based on assumptions instead of facts


@suchmoon, i fully agree on that. Things look far from positive at this stage. He said in about 2 weeks there will be some sort of a solution. Im very curious what that will be...and yes i know he said things before. But if things didnt worked out as planned it doesnt always have to be a scam.

Well, I'm sure we'll all be here in 2 weeks to witness the miracle  

[paycum]

lol you guys are so funny acting like inspector gadget, love it  

If all that stuff really is legit then damn this would be the dumbest scam ever. Do you reall think that if this was really a scam, you guys would find evidence (and so much) this easy?

There is a difference between a scam and really bad business sense.  I think that they formed a cult like belief in paycoin and everyone Josh talked to gave him positive responses so he believed it even more.  I also think that he may have embellished a bit but not outright to just scam people.  For example a deal with mastercard that could have been just like hitting up a bank to issue a mastercard debit similar to how paypal does it (a 3rd party bank issues those cards, paypal just acts as a go-between for payments and funding).  He then embellished it to be a deal *with* mastercard instead of a deal to offer mastercards.  There are programs where they would receive a percentage of the fees charged when its used as a credit card so this  could have been a good money maker aside from the downside of backing it with a volatile coin in an environment where charge backs can take 2 months.  The charge back issue is why I scrapped my bitcoin backed debit card a couple years ago, I cant afford that level of risk although I did initially talk to a few banks about getting branded cards.

As for the investor thing that may be a separate ball of wax with the hope and cult like devotion to paycoin which made him think that he could make good on the promises and leave the investor happy.  This looks more like a hope and prayer business model like a gambler hoping they will win and extremely confident in their ability but ultimately losing.  I read those emails more like he believes if he can just keep it going another week or month then it will take off and all the problems will resolve themselves.  Some of the statements appear to not understand that when taking investment money you cant use the same negotiation tactics that you might use when selling widgets.

The ease of the evidence is most likely merely an oversight.  They did not intend for everyone to be able to view the emails, but rather set up a google groups for their domain possibly without realizing the effect of that decision and their sharing policy.  This shows a tech incompetence more than anything else.

I think that there were some serious misstatements made that can have legal implications but I also know that many people do not realize how careful they have to be when selling products (contract law, FTC regulations, etc) or taking investments (SEC regulations and some criminal statutes).  Exactly what is said, how its phrased, even sometimes down to simple words and what disclosures are required come down to a myriad of laws and regulations (10 regulations for every statute congress passes).  

But what do I know I am not a lawyer I am just a poor poor student looking for work especially in coding, security, administration/engineering, or something else I can do to pay for housing, books, etc while getting my law degree.  Hire me!

yes true, well said. Indeed he might better used different words then "i have a deal with mastercard" as that apparently gives some people the impression he made a deal with ceo of mastercard himself lol...which nobody does as all "deals" go through a bank or psp.

Maybe indeed many people just think different on the word "scam". Bad business sounds logic but indeed doesnt mean its a deliberately scam.

[paycum]

And again im not saying you guys should stop or arent right...im just saying that every story has 2 side and as outsiders you never know what the whole story is...so all is based on assumptions instead of facts


@suchmoon, i fully agree on that. Things look far from positive at this stage. He said in about 2 weeks there will be some sort of a solution. Im very curious what that will be...and yes i know he said things before. But if things didnt worked out as planned it doesnt always have to be a scam.

Well, I'm sure we'll all be here in 2 weeks to witness the miracle  

Yeah indeed. Well at least the popcorn factory is happy with all of this 

[suchmoon]

Again not saying he did or did not get a debitcard approval, but come on immediately calling this a scam based on this is ridiculous.

Immediately?

Look, I've said this about a million times already - any single mistake/broken promise/failed feature/whathaveyou can be explained and apologized for and otherwise swept under the rug. It's the OVERALL picture that we are talking about. Not about Mastercard, but about the pattern of GAWCEO implying partnerships (Amazon, Walmart, Gyft, etc) where none existed. Not about the Honors program, but about the ludicrous promise of a floor and CAF and "moving the market" etc. Not about failing to pay one invoice, but about an inbox full of overdue bills. We could probably go on for 1200 more pages about this.

[rawbot]

Everybody keep your eyes on BTC.COM over the next 24/48 hours. Gaw may not own it after that!

[trixter]

DKIM doesnt have to mean anything. Even if the DKIM is legit there are many other ways to create something like this. If some angry employee, hacker or whoever has root access to that domain he can create this all within 5 minutes..

But what domain was it?  Werent they using google apps for domains?  Wouldnt that mean that google has the private key and not a GAW employee?  I dont know I really did not look into it but I seem to recall a whole lot of google looking webmail things and the fact that all the emails were on google groups indicating that  their email is probably gmail hosted.  

If that is the case then it is entirely likely they are using gmail hosted services they will not be able to see the private key.  Thus any compromise would have to be at google, either from an employee there or someone breaking in and being able to steal their private keys.  

It seems less likely that someone who got the private keys would use them for this.  It also seems less likely that a google employee was the one that either leaked the key to an associate or directly created these emails.

As a result the DKIM signatures are probably legit and not the result of someone faking the emails.

Now if GAW wanted to invalidate the DKIM signatures all they would have to do is change their DNS, if they want it to work for future emails they have to log into  their google admin home page, go to the gmail app, click on settings and then go to "Authenticate Email".  They can issue a new key which will revoke the old one.  They would then have to update their DNS with the newly provided public key.

And again im not saying you guys should stop or arent right...im just saying that every story has 2 side and as outsiders you never know what the whole story is...so all is based on assumptions instead of facts

The assumption that google was not penetrated in a way that led to the compromise of the private keys is a pretty good one though.  Conversely the assumption that GAW had the private key all along is not as strong.  Occam's razor, it is more likely that GAW does not nor did they ever have the private DKIM key.

[systematicdeception]

Wow, even the 'faithful' are afraid to show lack of faith.

[DaveWave]

Btc.com seems to be linking to paybase for me, at least for now.

Is that the site that says Paycoin's current price is $1.04?

[paycum]

Again not saying he did or did not get a debitcard approval, but come on immediately calling this a scam based on this is ridiculous.

Immediately?

Look, I've said this about a million times already - any single mistake/broken promise/failed feature/whathaveyou can be explained and apologized for and otherwise swept under the rug. It's the OVERALL picture that we are talking about. Not about Mastercard, but about the pattern of GAWCEO implying partnerships (Amazon, Walmart, Gyft, etc) where none existed. Not about the Honors program, but about the ludicrous promise of a floor and CAF and "moving the market" etc. Not about failing to pay one invoice, but about an inbox full of overdue bills. We could probably go on for 1200 more pages about this.

hehe sorry i was just talking about the mastercard part For the rest i agree there are a ton of orange signs piling up.

[Phildo]

lol you guys are so funny acting like inspector gadget, love it  

If all that stuff really is legit then damn this would be the dumbest scam ever. Do you reall think that if this was really a scam, you guys would find evidence (and so much) this easy?

And yes maybe some of it is true, but keep an open mind...some of it might be false as well...you and i just dont know!

Its perfectly clear you are handling this all with one goal only and that is proving it is a scam. Which is fine, but it clearly makes you block all other things that point in another direction...

Even if the honor program, the debitcard and stuff like that will show up, i know for sure you guys still will think its a scam...

But im not judging, its human nature...

You don't need any of these emails to show it's a scam.

it doesn't make sense on a basic common sense level. If they were going to give a $20 bill to everyone in exchange for a paycoin they would either be buying these 60 cent paycoins or they think that the price will go lower, so there's really no reason for you to have any faith until it starts going up.

The whole point of crypto is that everything is proven on the blockchain and they never showed proof of the mining, or proof of anything. Read or doubt the emails all you want, but none of this paycoin stuff has ever made  a lick of sense.

GAW has no business plan except get idiots to hand them money and sell paycoins. There is no way for you or anyone else to make money on that.

[Paul Revere]

People really should read back a few pages before wasting thousands of keystrokes on speculation about things that are already well known. In particular I would read where I noticed an email in the list from Scott Booth which he verified was indeed real:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg10651942#msg10651942

Get real. There were at least 50,000 Emails in that dump last night. It would take someone a year just to write them, not even getting into all of the links and pictures and voicemails and then the DKIM signatures that are in them. If you are an idiot solipsist and just can't accept that truth can be known I think you are in the wrong thread.

P.S: This post is mainly meant for trixter and PC. PC is already on ignore, and now you are as well aptley named wall o text poster. See you never, forget to write! Buhbyes!

[paycum]

DKIM doesnt have to mean anything. Even if the DKIM is legit there are many other ways to create something like this. If some angry employee, hacker or whoever has root access to that domain he can create this all within 5 minutes..

But what domain was it?  Werent they using google apps for domains?  Wouldnt that mean that google has the private key and not a GAW employee?  I dont know I really did not look into it but I seem to recall a whole lot of google looking webmail things and the fact that all the emails were on google groups indicating that  their email is probably gmail hosted.  

If that is the case then it is entirely likely they are using gmail hosted services they will not be able to see the private key.  Thus any compromise would have to be at google, either from an employee there or someone breaking in and being able to steal their private keys.  

It seems less likely that someone who got the private keys would use them for this.  It also seems less likely that a google employee was the one that either leaked the key to an associate or directly created these emails.

As a result the DKIM signatures are probably legit and not the result of someone faking the emails.

Now if GAW wanted to invalidate the DKIM signatures all they would have to do is change their DNS, if they want it to work for future emails they have to log into  their google admin home page, go to the gmail app, click on settings and then go to "Authenticate Email".  They can issue a new key which will revoke the old one.  They would then have to update their DNS with the newly provided public key.

And again im not saying you guys should stop or arent right...im just saying that every story has 2 side and as outsiders you never know what the whole story is...so all is based on assumptions instead of facts

The assumption that google was not penetrated in a way that led to the compromise of the private keys is a pretty good one though.  Conversely the assumption that GAW had the private key all along is not as strong.  Occam's razor, it is more likely that GAW does not nor did they ever have the private DKIM key.

I believe it was the gaw domain, but i didnt read all emails as there was big bunch posted here yesterday and today. My DKIM story was based on the first emails i saw which all came from and send to geniusesatwork.com if i remember correctly. So if someone had plesk/cpanel/directadmin or shell access then it was easy to setup.

I wasnt aware of the google mails...will take a look at them right away..

[trixter]

Look, I've said this about a million times already - any single mistake/broken promise/failed feature/whathaveyou can be explained and apologized for and otherwise swept under the rug. It's the OVERALL picture that we are talking about. Not about Mastercard, but about the pattern of GAWCEO implying partnerships (Amazon, Walmart, Gyft, etc) where none existed. Not about the Honors program, but about the ludicrous promise of a floor and CAF and "moving the market" etc. Not about failing to pay one invoice, but about an inbox full of overdue bills. We could probably go on for 1200 more pages about this.

I agree there is a pattern here but to identify what that pattern is requires breaking down the elements of the pattern and addressing them individually.

Calling "affiliate programs" partnerships is more of a marketing slip than an outright scam.  Did they have an Amazon affiliate?  Yes I believe they did, they get a commission for items bought through  them (higher if they directly link to products).  These are free and handed out like candy.  Gyft also has an affiliate program.  Walmart had one with Gyft at one time and I believe they do for certain uses (they dislike digital cards I believe because of a high degree of barcode theft in  the stores and people  waiting for them to be loaded and then using them - only takes a smart phone with a camera to photograph it and then present it in the store).  

In fact I believe everyone they said was a "partner" had an affiliate program.  While partner conveys a stronger relationship than an affiliate, generally invoking visions of revenue sharing and a tighter relationship when viewed in the context of marketing speak I think that one is explainable without it being scammy.  In fact Gyft even calls affiliates partners in some of their literature eg http://gyft.wufoo.com/forms/m4ho4890odxfkn/

As for  the price floor, I generally believe they thought originally they would be able to do that.  They did not consider arbitrage, they did not consider that other exchanges would be offering coins and they could not possibly suck up all the ones that people would dump.  This can be because of a cult like devotion to paycoin - why would anyone want to dump them or otherwise trade them.  This mindset is what you see politicians do when proposing legislation because they surround themselves with people who all agree with them and thus believe that everyone agrees with them.  When you operate in an isolated bubble full of devotees its common for people to think that everyone thinks as they do, after all everyone they talk to agrees with them and they believe themselves to be normal people.

I think the overdue bills is more of a symptom than a scam.  The cult like devotion to the coin is, as I said before, akin to a gambler that thinks they can win the next bet and then be set.  I think that they believed that if they could just last a little longer it would take off and all the problems would be solved.  A scam implies they never intended to pay the bills, to short customers, to defraud people.  I do not think they went into it with  that mindset (mens rea in legal speak) but rather it was just a poorly conceived idea that was implemented even worse and things took longer to get going (like being able to use them for anything useful).  Utility is where a coins real value comes from, if you cant spent the coins what good are they?  If they have no value who wants to keep them?  If everyone dumps them and you solely invested in that then how can you pay your bills?

So I do not see a scam, when viewed in this light becuase I, like you, could go on for 1200 pages.  I do see incompetence and what appears to be an overly optimistic view of the coins value and utility.  

[rawbot]

I wasnt aware of the google mails...will take a look at them right away..

Well there is 50,000 of them so you better catch up before talking shit in here.  And for the people who have been arguing with paycum over the last few pages, the dickhead is referring to the last bunch of DKIM emails published by coinbrief.

He isn't even aware of last nights events.

[paycum]

I wasnt aware of the google mails...will take a look at them right away..

Well there is 50,000 of them so you better catch up before talking shit in here.  And for the people who have been arguing with paycum over the last few pages, the dickhead is referring to the last bunch of DKIM emails published by coinbrief.

He isn't even aware of last nights events.

Lol its almost undoable to catch up as stuff gets posted every second...

But even if there where a million emails that doesnt have to mean a thing. People say a lot in private emails, that why they are private. What do you think what you get to see if you saw all internal emails of a random company, lets say a bank or your wifes conversations with her best friend...