tempus
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September 30, 2015, 05:56:46 PM |
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Another calculation about the inflation/staking-interest. The problem with it is, as far as I know, also: Staked (new) Coins of today will stake tomorrow. That would mean, if I'm right with that, that there isn't a linear increase. It's exponential --> Compound interest We already can see how much they stake in 24 hours (in fact it's not even 24 hours): September 29, 2015, 07:40:18 PM
This is the total supply until now: 3,055,006,939
Right now it's: September 30, 2015, 05:42 PM And the total supply is: 3,063,373,575 http://www.neucoin.io/richlist8,366,636 new Coins in 22 hours. But, let's say it would be 24 hours. It's 0.278% interest per day! And if we calculate that with compound interest, we have to calculate: "amount-after-one-year" = 3,000,000,000 * (1 + 0.278/100) ^365 = 8,263,964,732 NEU Everybody can calculate it here: http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.phpStandard Calculator PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: 3,000,000,000 PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: 0.278 PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: 365 (years) PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: yearly It doesn't know Neucoin so we say Dollar, it doesn't know daily so we calculate it for 365 years. Makes no difference. The result is the same I calculated above. And if I'm right with that, it's not just 100% in one year. It's 175%!!! |
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Kamatezo
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September 30, 2015, 06:28:03 PM |
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I got this answer from NEUCOIN:
When staking amounts like 10000 NEU you'll have much less than one percent chance of minting coins each day. So you could go months without minting coins, and you're not going to get such a compounding advantage as your calculations. You'll also have a lot of uncertainty, if you're unlucky it could be years before you mint coins. The good thing about the growth accounts is you're guaranteed to get coins.
That said I don't like the way the growth accounts work. It would be much better without different time periods. So you could transfer in and out coins when you want, and get paid rewards on a regular bases. Maybe someone else will implement a more user friendly growth account this way.
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Gekko463
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September 30, 2015, 06:44:42 PM |
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And they started this thread themselves, because they wanted to bang the drum for the project. The question is: Why doesn't they manage the communication? If I were a Dev or a Community-Manager I would see every question, all criticism as opportunity to make PR out of it because I only would stand behind a project if I would see good reasons and than I would have arguments. There wouldn't be (m)any questions I couldn't answer...
I guess they gave up as they got attacked so much - much of it was petty nonsense (NeuCon, NoCoin), some of it slightly offensive, some of it highly so. On the fist page the casual sexism kicked off "Sandrine is pretty" then Scam Confirmed et al signed up and pathologically began attacking every single element of it - its a pump and dump, its a scam project, the marketing is shit, the name is shit, its securities fraud, its tax fraud, the price is crashing - ha ha, the price is rising - they must be pumping the market...Someone with some time on their hands should go through and document all of the theories that have been shared on this thread. Any of the NeuCoin team that posted on here seem to have been shouted down and or attacked - even when they were providing answers and so I guess now they don't bother. Its a real shame, as I think in particular the inflationary question would be really interesting to hear their answers on.... Oh STFU new2allthis2! Dan has the million dollars and you are already losing money. Not a scam? You are in denial. Did you not figure out math yet? The fact that the name IS shit, they have committed blue sky violations, their entire structure is an enourmous tax fraud, we told the truth about all that here etc...and none of that contributed to this clusterfuck: ...the price is crashing and will continue to 1 satochi because the math. All of the illegal stuff just demonstrates their malice. The math demonstrates that they never intended to make money for anyone but Dan. They lost any right to respect the moment they answered my question "who is the director of the off-shore Seychelles company where you are asking everyone to send a million dollars worth of Bitcoin?" Their answer, paraphrased, was: "Fuck you and everybody else, we are not telling you who the director is because we are breaking so many laws in so many jurisdictions that we are keeping that a secret. Just send the bitcoins where we tell you to and don't worry about where it's going or who is in control of it, or get off our website and stop asking questions." Hope you've dumped before you lose the rest of your pocket money. You've already lost 100% of your dignity defending these inept thieves here and on Reddit new2allthis. You have been defending a clownish fraud, and lost money while you were at it. Crawl away now, be ashamed of yourself, and do math and due diligence instead of being impressed by a name list next time you open your cake trap. |
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tempus
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September 30, 2015, 07:16:10 PM |
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I got this answer from NEUCOIN:
When staking amounts like 10000 NEU you'll have much less than one percent chance of minting coins each day. So you could go months without minting coins, and you're not going to get such a compounding advantage as your calculations. You'll also have a lot of uncertainty, if you're unlucky it could be years before you mint coins. The good thing about the growth accounts is you're guaranteed to get coins.
That said I don't like the way the growth accounts work. It would be much better without different time periods. So you could transfer in and out coins when you want, and get paid rewards on a regular bases. Maybe someone else will implement a more user friendly growth account this way.
I'm not sure about what you say/they say. The thing about it is: It could be right that the chance for one person with a small supply of Coins to reach 0.278% per day on average is very small. But: We speak about a total supply of 3 billion Coins. That is announced as the initial total supply. In this moment it is: 3,063,413,880 I don't know when exactly they began to stake. I believe it's one or two days before they went public. But it's easy to calculate: 63,413,880 new Coins = 2.1138% They went live 7 days ago: http://forum.neucoin.org/t/neucoin-is-live-available-on-exchanges-by-friday/1584We divide it by 7 = 0.302% per day .................by 8 = 0.264% per day (if they started one day earlier) And I believe they began one day before they went public, so the daily interest rate will be around that. And in the last hours it was nearly exact what I've said above: 0.278% (22 hours) If one single person with a small amount won't reach it, but if that will be a constant staking-rate for the total, it's even worse. Because it means, that they have a higher staking rate in average with their billions of premine then the normal User with his 10k NEU. We'll know that in a few weeks. Then we can calculate it very precise and I'm pretty sure that it'll be around 0.27% per day. And I believe that it's compound interest... and that the inflation per year will be much higher than """just""" 100%. But either way, they don't know what to do with all the new coins they stake everyday. Because it's a fact that they staked more than 8 Mio new Coins in the last 24 hours if the Block-Explorer is right. |
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tempus
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September 30, 2015, 08:00:59 PM |
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And they started this thread themselves, because they wanted to bang the drum for the project. The question is: Why doesn't they manage the communication? If I were a Dev or a Community-Manager I would see every question, all criticism as opportunity to make PR out of it because I only would stand behind a project if I would see good reasons and than I would have arguments. There wouldn't be (m)any questions I couldn't answer...
I guess they gave up as they got attacked so much - much of it was petty nonsense (NeuCon, NoCoin), some of it slightly offensive, some of it highly so. On the fist page the casual sexism kicked off "Sandrine is pretty" then Scam Confirmed et al signed up and pathologically began attacking every single element of it - its a pump and dump, its a scam project, the marketing is shit, the name is shit, its securities fraud, its tax fraud, the price is crashing - ha ha, the price is rising - they must be pumping the market...Someone with some time on their hands should go through and document all of the theories that have been shared on this thread. Any of the NeuCoin team that posted on here seem to have been shouted down and or attacked - even when they were providing answers and so I guess now they don't bother. Its a real shame, as I think in particular the inflationary question would be really interesting to hear their answers on.... I don't agree with personal attacks. But I also disagree if somebody sells a product to the people with promises and some hype but without explaining very important aspects. Here in this thread are a lot of more or less smart theories about it, because there are not enough hard informations about it. In my eyes it's just a lot of smoke. I mean, take a part like this: "To optimize for growth and adoption, a large share of the foundations’ endowment will be given to consumers in exchange for engaging with, trying out, and referring friends to NeuCoin. Another large block will be awarded to companies that help NeuCoin grow its user base and become more useful: game publishers and content providers that accept microtransactions with NeuCoin tokens, exchanges, wallets, consumer mining services, payment processors, remittance services, discounted group shopping services, marketing and distribution partners and other key services to NeuCoin users. Finally, some will be sold, with proceeds used by the foundations to increase the value of NeuCoin through consumer marketing, utility development, and core coin development."Sounds nice, right? But it just needs one calculation to show it's complete bullshit with the inflation-design they've choosen. They sold 100 Mio to the public (or tried to...), and if I'm right the price was at (or about) 0.00004 BTC... And they stake more than 8 Mio Coins every day which would be worth >300 BTC at that price. They can't sell it... it would damage the market. But what's that for calculations? Since they went live they staked 63 Mio Coins out of nothing. That's a 63%-inflation out of market perspective in just one week. Again: "Only" 100 Mio are right now on the market. How can anybody believe that something like this can have any value on the market if it's produced like dust. It's a complete joke in my eyes. And maybe the Neucoin-Supporter (public-Investors) are so blinded by the "big names" that they don't ask those questions but they should know it. In my eyes, the Neucoin-team should calculate possible scenarios... they should calculate their own strategy in best case and show it to the public. That would show what would be needed to realize that. And than, everybody could come to own conclusions if he/she believes that it's possible. And to be more clear about that point: I don't know if the team behind has the intention to scam. If yes, it's a bad scam-strategy. If no, it's a bad designed project as well. But what I know for fact: It's dishonest to make marketing for this, to lead people into buying NEU, without showing what they plan to do with it and they should show calculations about possible scenarios. I don't say they have to explain it in this thread. And they don't have to explain it to me or those who are critical about it or even FUDders. But we'll see what's they will do... My own opinion: I don't believe they started it with a definitely scam-intention. But I believe it's obvious that there is so much greed... It's totally obvious in it's mathematically/economic design and it's kind of paradox, but that's the main reason why it won't work out. They'll never be able to explain what they want to do with all the dust they stake out of nothing. The 63 Mio new Coins that were staked in the last 7 or 8 days... what to do with it? Sell them? Give it away for free? The price would be at 1 sat. Hold them? Why stake all the dust if they can't do anything with it without damaging the value? And we're talking here just about what they stake. It's really a mystery to me. I don't get it. And they sold this in an ICO and made about 4000 BTC out of it? There are just two scenarios about the ICO: 1. The ICO was "legit"... really sold to the public. Than it's dishonest to sell something like this to that price 2. They bought into the ICO themselves... to bring the project to the market. Than it's dishonest because they're trying to sell an already failed project in combination with market-manipulation I know what I believe... |
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rizzlarolla
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September 30, 2015, 08:34:38 PM
Last edit: September 30, 2015, 08:54:42 PM by rizzlarolla |
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Tempus your figures look correct to me. Everyone has to do their own figures as nokoin will not publish. Even published figures cannot be trusted. How many nokoin will there be after 1 year? http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/9Speedbird, "3bn coins at 100% annual interest will turn to 8bn in a year through compound interest. Unless I'm mistaken you'll get that if the coins stake approx. every 2 weeks. 100% per year is 4,166 percent per 2 weeks." Kourosh, apr 19 "member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper" "That's right, it's actually more often than every 2 weeks considering the decreasing interest rate. I can give you all the hypothesis if you're interested in knowing more." oops, to near the truth, so, Kourosh better twist the figures, Kourosh, apr 22 "member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper" "I made a typo earlier (I edited the post), the number of coins after 1 year will be ~6.8 billion. Let's take an example: Imagine you buy ~$200 worth of NeuCoin at the presale, which will amount to roughly 20,000NEU. You mine once at month 3: New total = Old total + reward = 20,000 + 20,000 * 3/12 * 0.9593 ~ 24,797 You mine again at month 6: New total = 24,797 + 24,797 * 3/12 * 0.9124 ~ 30,453 Again at month 9: New total = 30,453 + 30,453 * 3/12 * 0.8675 ~ 37,057 And once more at month 12: New total = 37,057 + 37,057 * 3/12 * 0.8245 ~ 44,695 Therefore, over one year since your rewards were compounded (how often they are compounded depends on how many coins you own), it's equivalent to a one time (44,695-20,000)/20,000~124% annual interest rate." http://forum.neucoin.org/t/how-will-neucoins-be-mined-after-release/163/39That is all I can find on the subject. So Kourosh, member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper, deliberately misleads nokoiners. He was correct first time. 8bn nokoin after 1 year. Not 6.8bn. 6.8bn calculated on compounding 20000 nokoin. clearly and knowingly changed his answer, which was correct, to an answer that is wrong  nokoin team member deliberately misinforming. |
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newtoallofthis2
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September 30, 2015, 08:53:10 PM |
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So Tempus - here's an idea. How about you register on the NeuCoin forum, write up a question about this inflation stuff, word it politely, keep it a reasonable length and factual, then post it there. Then see what the response is.
As for my previous post I think Rizzlarolla (NoCoin) and Gekko's (STFU) subsequent responses underline my point about this thread......
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scam confirmed
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September 30, 2015, 08:56:45 PM |
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http://forum.neucoin.org/t/investors-in-neucoin/1341I got this answer from NEUCOIN:
When staking amounts like 10000 NEU you'll have much less than one percent chance of minting coins each day. So you could go months without minting coins, and you're not going to get such a compounding advantage as your calculations. You'll also have a lot of uncertainty, if you're unlucky it could be years before you mint coins. The good thing about the growth accounts is you're guaranteed to get coins.
That said I don't like the way the growth accounts work. It would be much better without different time periods. So you could transfer in and out coins when you want, and get paid rewards on a regular bases. Maybe someone else will implement a more user friendly growth account this way.
I would agree with this answer. We have discussed the matter earlier, it started here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=944933.msg11770834#msg11770834The fact remains: Growth account rates are usury. The problem remains: Growth account users lose due to usury and (ironically) the network‘s high minting participation rate. it's Neucon, where the team earns and all others pay.
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rizzlarolla
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September 30, 2015, 09:03:59 PM |
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So Tempus - here's an idea. How about you register on the NeuCoin forum, write up a question about this inflation stuff, word it politely, keep it a reasonable length and factual, then post it there. Then see what the response is.
As for my previous post I think Rizzlarolla (NoCoin) and Gekko's (STFU) subsequent responses underline my point about this thread......
16 posts all about me, gekko and scam. No attempt to talk about anything. Why don't you post on nokoin forum? Because you have a different name there? |
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rizzlarolla
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September 30, 2015, 09:40:19 PM |
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Torrgeek nokoin mod, "As for me, I would use the online wallet as long as the fee is less than 1-2% of the coins staked." James nokoin mod, "I agree with you @torrgeek and since the staking is 100% for the first year and the POS is about low fees I'm certain the wallet staking fee will be reasonable if there is one. @Sandrine what is the fee going to be on the NeuCoin wallet for staking if there is even a fee?" Yeah, 1-2% sounds ok Torgeek, James mod. Sandrine, "we're currently working on our communication documents around this, I'll get back to you asap on this subject. I'll give you an answer in the coming week." http://forum.neucoin.org/t/neucoin-speculation/1209/23No answer.
(scam confirmed)
The wallet operator retains
- 24.5 % of a growth account user's 3 MONTH account stake
- 28.4 % of a growth account user's 12 MONTH account stake
Oh. A bit more than you expected mods? |
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tempus
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September 30, 2015, 09:56:43 PM |
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Tempus your figures look correct to me. Everyone has to do their own figures as nokoin will not publish. Even published figures cannot be trusted. How many nokoin will there be after 1 year? http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/9Speedbird, "3bn coins at 100% annual interest will turn to 8bn in a year through compound interest. Unless I'm mistaken you'll get that if the coins stake approx. every 2 weeks. 100% per year is 4,166 percent per 2 weeks." Kourosh, apr 19 "member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper" "That's right, it's actually more often than every 2 weeks considering the decreasing interest rate. I can give you all the hypothesis if you're interested in knowing more." oops, to near the truth, so, Kourosh better twist the figures, Kourosh, apr 22 "member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper" "I made a typo earlier (I edited the post), the number of coins after 1 year will be ~6.8 billion. Let's take an example: Imagine you buy ~$200 worth of NeuCoin at the presale, which will amount to roughly 20,000NEU. You mine once at month 3: New total = Old total + reward = 20,000 + 20,000 * 3/12 * 0.9593 ~ 24,797 You mine again at month 6: New total = 24,797 + 24,797 * 3/12 * 0.9124 ~ 30,453 Again at month 9: New total = 30,453 + 30,453 * 3/12 * 0.8675 ~ 37,057 And once more at month 12: New total = 37,057 + 37,057 * 3/12 * 0.8245 ~ 44,695 Therefore, over one year since your rewards were compounded (how often they are compounded depends on how many coins you own), it's equivalent to a one time (44,695-20,000)/20,000~124% annual interest rate." http://forum.neucoin.org/t/how-will-neucoins-be-mined-after-release/163/39That is all I can find on the subject. So Kourosh, member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper, deliberately misleads nokoiners. He was correct first time. 8bn nokoin after 1 year. Not 6.8bn. 6.8bn calculated on compounding 20000 nokoin. clearly and knowingly changed his answer, which was correct, to an answer that is wrong nokoin team member deliberately misinforming. The point about all this is: It really doesn't matter if it's 110%, 120%, 175%... Because in the end it's all about the market. And on the market are 100 Mio right now. If there would be "just" 1 Mio new Coins per day it would mean 10 Mio in 10 days = 10% inflation out of market-perspective. 100% in 100 days. And if that is too much for the market to hold it's value, why should there a 100%-inflation in 100 days? But what we know is: They staked not just 10 Mio Coins in ten days but > 63 Mio Coins in 7 or 8 days. The question is: Why stake this Coins if it would dump the price into oblivion? Or with other words: Do they really believe in the price they sold their public-ICO for? 1. If yes: They obviously believe that their foundations and angel- and initial seed Investors are worth what they stake everyday. And that is more than 8 Mio Coins which would be worth 320 BTC. Each day! 9,600 BTC per month... (in fact it's more) 2. If no: If they don't believe that the > 8 Mio Coins are worth that... why did they sell it to that price to the public? What they say is: They'll distribute that for the best of the project. But if they really believe in the price of 0.00004 BTC they have to distribute a value of 320 BTC each day or 3,200 BTC every ten days or 9,600 BTC each month = $2.28 Mio But... fact is: All what they stake shouldn't reach the market. If they pay just one Game-Devs with Neucoin he wouldn't be able to sell it. Because it's no rocket-science that there won't be a 320BTC-demand to a 0.00004-price some day ....and every day. So, the mysterious question is: Why did they chose such a high staking rate? Usually it's to motivate people to hold their coins. They give the impression of getting rich if they just hold it. At the same time they assure the people that all the coins in the background won't reach the market to give the impression of a small supply on the free market. And there are the "non-profit-foundation" ("non-profit" sounds really nice, right?) and just 2% of dumping every month of the angel and initial seed Investors and so on. That's the strategy... People should held their Coins because of the high-staking rate and have faith about the billions in the background and the price would have the potential to rise, if enough people would be blinded by all that and the big names behind it. Because the best argument is: "Look at the names, they're professionals! They know what they're doing, right?" It's a project to blind people... I don't know what they are. Maybe they're complete unprofessional and naive. Maybe it's irrational greed. Maybe it's fraud. And I don't know if there should be an "or" or an "and" between those possibilities. ;-) |
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tempus
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September 30, 2015, 10:35:18 PM |
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So Tempus - here's an idea. How about you register on the NeuCoin forum, write up a question about this inflation stuff, word it politely, keep it a reasonable length and factual, then post it there. Then see what the response is.
As for my previous post I think Rizzlarolla (NoCoin) and Gekko's (STFU) subsequent responses underline my point about this thread......
You can be sure that they read this thread. They know about the questions about the inflation and how to distribute it and so on. And as I said: They don't need to explain anything to me or anybody who didn't invest. But if they're honest and with best intention it should be their own intention to answer all those questions to those who bought their project and supports it. And it should be their own intention to be clear about it all because every project needs user-growth. And what they maybe call FUD... should be easy to reply if it's just FUD. If I were a Project-Leader or CM I would instantly try to calm down my community with arguments. I would go into every discussion or even fight for that. If somebody is skilled in what he does, a real professional, and at the same time honest, that's absolutely no problem. With other words: It shouldn't need questions. But at the same time: Those who bought should ask. Not people like me. But if I would be invested that would be my questions: 1. Could you show the calculation for 1 year inflation? 2. What's the distribution-plan with all the brandnew coins? Could you show calculations for possible scenarios? 3. Is there currently any distribution besides the 100 Mio on the market you sold to the public? 4. Was it really sold to the public or did you buy into the ICO? 5. If > 1000 public investors invested in the ICO, where are the addresses? Because only 100 addresses holding more than just 3 billion coins in total and 99.79 % of the total. 6. What is already happening and will happen with the BTC you collected? 7. Please take a look at the ICO-Address and the out-transactions: Is that Coinmixing? https://blockchain.info/address/3MrNuksZ1VePU3dGiSQFiouWerJUJgDkfH8. Why isn't there any official block-explorer? 9. Do you believe in the current price and if yes, do you believe the market could cope with "just" what you stake? 10. If no, why did you choose such a high staking rate? 11. If no, why did you choose 0.00004 BTC as appropriate price to sell it to the public? |
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jonald_fyookball
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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
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September 30, 2015, 10:36:18 PM |
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I have a feeling they will try to float the price around the .00004 mark and claim how stable it is and hope that it will be of interest.
pretty boring.
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tempus
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September 30, 2015, 11:24:01 PM |
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I have a feeling they will try to float the price around the .00004 mark and claim how stable it is and hope that it will be of interest.
pretty boring.
They can do whatever they want to do with the price. What they can't: Distribute what they stake at the current price which would be worth > 300 BTC - every single day. And if that is impossible, they have to explain why they thought it would be an appropriate price to sell 100 Mio Coins to the public and why they chose such an high inflation-rate. But it's highly doubtful that they were able to distribute "just" the 100 Mio. |
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peonminer
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September 30, 2015, 11:49:04 PM |
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Are you still offering 1k neu for a review? I have some review information that may be of importance.
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Zombier0
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October 01, 2015, 02:01:07 AM |
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Id likemthis free to try part.. So far i cannot ge any free coins
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LiQio
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October 01, 2015, 04:32:21 AM |
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Foundations/team accounts growing quickly (in absolute as well as in relative terms). Bad distribution getting worse by the minute. When can we get the promised list? (You could easily use the tag feature of neucoin.io) [...]
Second, all NeuCoin tokens owned by the foundations, as well as all restricted NeuCoins (whether owned by founders, angel investors or service providers) will be held and mined in published addresses clearly visible and verifiable on the NeuCoin blockchain.
[...]
What are the cash needs? Each year, the foundations’ goal is to sell sufficient NeuCoin tokens through private sales or exchanges to fund the following year’s cash needs Will you hold the price stable at 0.000038ish? If so for how long? |
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LiQio
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October 01, 2015, 12:44:23 PM |
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^ impressive post  Wow, you almost convinced me investor  Back to reality: Let's assume that you're not a team member and therefore actually care about facts. Let's assume further that collecting those links and writing your post took you 5 minutes. OK. Now, did you know that the Neucon team "earned" ten thousands of coins while you were writing said post? Sometimes the make more than 50'000 coins in 40 seconds (that equals a 2 BTC ICO investment) (*). And you really believe that anyone should buy this coin? Really??? (*) proof  |
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Gekko463
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October 01, 2015, 01:04:17 PM |
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Do nothing? We do math! And Due Diligence! Billions and billions of coins already existing and being created from...nothing...second by second already crushing your "investment" (donation to Dank's Cocaine fund). "Neucoininvestors" LIKE YOU are already collectively $100,000 in the red. Dummy. |
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