[ANN] NeuCoin - Easy to use, free to try, focused on micropayments - Official

[jonald_fyookball]

Actually, I don't own any altcoins.

I became interested in what I perceived to be a scam (Neucoin)
after reading the claims that Neucoin can solve the Proof
of Stake issues.

I've read quite a bit on these kinds of issues and have
discussed them with very smart and knowledgable
people (like Greg Maxwell).

And I believe I know enough to tell you that the
Neucoin whitepaper is a paper tiger.

And yet, you can't produce any coherent attack against it. Why don't you? I'm sure at least Sunny King from Peercoin would be interested in what you have to say.

been there, done that -- see above link.

As far as I know, Peercoin still uses checkpointing to guard against grinding attacks.
If there was something innovative in the neucoin paper, I'm sure Sunny King and
the peercoin community would be talking about it and trying to integrate it.

You gave me a link of about 100 posts. Which, if any, can I pin you down on as saying this is the attack that will prevent Neucoin from working?

You argue like a politician.

I never said neucoin won't "work" (it might work as well as another poS coin such as blackcoin), I'm just saying they haven't presented any innovations.

I happen to think ALL PoS coins suffer from the fundamental costless simulation flaw.  What's interesting is that neucoin marketing seems to acknowledge these PoS problems exist and claims they will solve them with their innovations. (they specifically mention "nothing at stake" which is another phrase to describe 'costless simulation'). But upon close examination, they don't really have a solution, or at the very least they don't have anything new that hasn't been done/tried before. 

The fundamental attack which I think is possible on any PoS system is known as "grinding".  Very simply, it involves building an alternate chain longer than the main chain by computing different
permutations of transactions and blocks.  This is nothing new, its been written about and debated endlessly in the cryptocurrency world for the last several years.

The neucoin white paper is very jargony and seems confused. It doesn't make too much sense to me as far as its organization and conclusions.  Personally I think Sunny King was being very generous and polite when he said its 80% right.  It's obviously not his style to get into a flame war.  My hats off to him. But rather than arguing whether it is 'correct', I simply ask: what is the innovation?  And the best answer anyone can give is 'floating stake modifier' which is not an innovation since Blackcoin did it first and really doesn't solve much as it is simply a method for stochastically choosing who mints the next block (which is also accomplished by existing cryptocurrencies like Nxt in their own implementations.)

I hope my position is clear now.

[darteous]

BTW Dart, you seem to think there will only be 100m nokoin on the market at release, (the presale coins)
do you think there will also be foundation coins available for purchase from day 1, (unlimited amount)
also angel/team coins available for purchase from day 1 (all be it a restricted amount)

Will these extra coins flood the market and overshadow the presale investor coins?

If I understand correctly the first month only the presale coins and the 5 million PoW coins will be available. After that point I've no clue how many coins they intend to let into circulation from the foundation, it is apparent that it will vary according to what the price is at and how many coins they need to sell in order to pay for coding upgrades and the like for the following year. The angels/investors/founders won't get their coins until the end of every month, so none of those coins will be used. But I didn't see anywhere saying that the angels/investors/ and founders couldn't take part in the presale. So I believe a number of the big buyers were them so that they could have a nice stack of unrestricted coins. All survey rewards and coins of that likeness will be given out at the end of the first month. They intend for the foundations to be the majority holder for the first five years. I think they will be waiting until January when the release of the first platform will give it a boost in usage is when they intend to give away and sell the most to keep the price from becoming to volatile.

[TibanneCat]

So I believe a number of the big buyers were them so that they could have a nice stack of unrestricted coins.

Now why would anyone who truly believes in nokoin's future and is in for the long haul want unrestricted coins if not for PnD?

It is a game as old as the markets.

It amuses me how excited everyone at The Neucoin forum is about the whales that are "Joining them".  If guys that big just wanted a big position to hold for the long term, they would have picked up the phone to Dan Kaufman and got into the Angel round at a quarter of the price of the Pre-sale round.

But the Angel round comes with a lock up period.  That won't do.

So the pumper has bought a few 200 BTC packs of this shite for an epic dump.  Will happen in 3 stages, I figure.

So it is obvious that they are all being set up for a hell of a ride up, and if they don't jump at a profit, they get to hold bags at a fraction of that penny a token they paid.

They won't jump.  

They are brainwashed true believers who will be excitedly posting about how smart they are.  And the token will just fade away decimal point by decimal point till it's $0.000099 each--the same price as dogecoin.

Like leading Lambs to the slaughter all excited about the mint jelly and roasted potatoes anyone with a nose can smell cooking.

Here's an interesting thought that can't be proven:  who do we know that has:

1.  A million dollars worth of bitcoins for a pump,
2.  An unlimited amount of vapor coins that he may just have bought from himself to launder money and get around trading restrictions on his granted tokens for the dump,
3.  An anonymous Sechelles holding company to scrub it all nice and squeaky clean,
4.  And a track record as a scumbag who installed malware on millions of computers in the mid 2000's and was sued essentially for being a predatory dishonest dick--several times at state level, federal level, and by other companies?

[darteous]

By buying some of the presale coins they can keep the pump from getting to out of hand. All coins that get attention get hit by pump crews, the founders having coins would mean they could try to lessen the blow and they'd make some profit. So it's a win - win - win

Just because I believe in neucoins future doesn't mean I won't sell a bunch if the price get really high to buy it back when it drops back off. These are businessmen not Blind fools, they know how crypto works.

[rizzlarolla]

By buying some of the presale coins they can keep the pump from getting to out of hand. All coins that get attention get hit by pump crews, the founders having coins would mean they could try to lessen the blow and they'd make some profit. So it's a win - win - win

Just because I believe in neucoins future doesn't mean I won't sell a bunch if the price get really high to buy it back when it drops back off. These are businessmen not Blind fools, they know how crypto works.

I thought that would be a job of foundations to control pumps, and profit from it for the greater good, not founders personal profiteering?
I would like to know for sure that founders coin is released at month end, not beginning.
I would expect foundation coin to be sold immediately.

could you find out for sure?
(or maybe the team wont communicate)

BTW, was the stake modifier the innovation you were trying to remember?

edit- Kahir still waiting for reply

[darteous]

I would imagine that after the first month the foundation will sell off some into spikes but the at launch we want day traders to jump in and give it some volume and have it get a bit of press and I think if the foundation could sell it's coins from the get go it would keep many traders from joining in on this coin.

The foundation wants to be the primary holder the first five years and will be giving away tons of coins to major websites as an adoption bonus and as a freemium. So they won't be selling too many coins unless we come into spikes often. The coin has a year to sell off coins to cover the following years expenses,

[LiQio]

I would imagine that after the first month the foundation will sell off some into spikes but the at launch we want day traders to jump in and give it some volume and have it get a bit of press and I think if the foundation could sell it's coins from the get go it would keep many traders from joining in on this coin.

The foundation wants to be the primary holder the first five years and will be giving away tons of coins to major websites as an adoption bonus and as a freemium. So they won't be selling too many coins unless we come into spikes often. The coin has a year to sell off coins to cover the following years expenses,

Did the foundations already determine the final price they will dictate the market?

Since the price will be predetermined by the foundations for several years they wont run into prize level problems. But what about missing volume: Imagine almost no third party demand for neucoin. The foundations would probably create some to pump it, but what if this was not enough? What if they won't be able to sell enough (= convert to real value) to cover next year expenses? How will the resulting downward spiral be broken?

Who tracks the bonuses the almighty foundations give away? All centrally planned economies open the floodgates to corruption and favoritism.
How is it handled?

[rizzlarolla]

I would imagine that after the first month the foundation will sell off some into spikes but the at launch we want day traders to jump in and give it some volume and have it get a bit of press and I think if the foundation could sell it's coins from the get go it would keep many traders from joining in on this coin.

The foundation wants to be the primary holder the first five years and will be giving away tons of coins to major websites as an adoption bonus and as a freemium. So they won't be selling too many coins unless we come into spikes often. The coin has a year to sell off coins to cover the following years expenses,

ok, so you don't know for sure, so you imagine. (not really what I asked)
Wont the team communicate? (we know they wont)
So is there any point in asking? (anything)

BTW, was the stake modifier the innovation you were trying to remember? (or can't you remember)
Kahir still waiting for reply.

[scam confirmed]

Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

[LOrrav]

Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

Compound interest is necessary in order to prevent miners from staying offline most of the time:

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/51

[scam confirmed]

Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

Compound interest is necessary in order to prevent miners from staying offline most of the time:

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/51

Agreed. But 100% isn't necessary. It's an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!

[jonald_fyookball]

Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

coin age is a broken idea too.

[rizzlarolla]

Stake modifier, omission of coin age in combination with NoKoin's initial 100% p.a. reward is an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!


Small NoKoin holders do not mint 24/7. Coin age doesn't linearly accumulate over time. --> Rich NoKoiners receive much more because they stake more often + due to compounded interest.


Rich foundations, rich founders, rich angel investors --> probably a feature.

Compound interest is necessary in order to prevent miners from staying offline most of the time:

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/51

Agreed. But 100% isn't necessary. It's an insolent rich-get-richer-poor-get-poorer-scheme!

Disagree. We REALLY need Kourosh to explain the different reward rates more clearly (for large and small holders) and the outcome of this.
(I agree with the theory, not the practice)
Consider a small holder (30,000nokoin) wanting to stake once a year, instead of running his node 24/7.
Firstly he will have to not move/use his coin in that time period to keep his days idle, then he will attempt to stake?
Now he will have to keep trying for an unknown time also?

He will not be able to just turn on his laptop and mint the next block?
If he would mint on average once a month, then it will still, on average, take a month?
If he is lucky it will be sooner, if unlucky longer.

So the small holder is still contributing to security, albeit less than continuously contributing.
So 12 small holders doing this will contribute as much to security as foundations running 1 node?
(even though foundations hold 10000x more coin of those 12 small holders?)
Is this correct?

We also need an idea of the "growth account" costs and lock up period.
James thinks it will be free, baby mod hopes it will cost less than the reward!

BTW, still no answer if stake modifier was the innovation?

[scam confirmed]

coin age is a broken idea too.

I don't deny it. Sunny King is well aware of it's problems:

"One  of  the  disadvantages  of  using  total  consumed  coin  age  to determine  main  chain  is that it lowers the cost of attack on the entire block chain of history." ... "Another  concern  is  that  the  cost  of  double-spending  attack  may  have  been  lowered  as well,  as  attacker  may  just  need  to  accumulate  certain amount  of  coin  age  and  force reorganization of the block chain. To make commerce practical under such a system, we decided to  introduce an additional  form of checkpoints that are broadcasted centrally, at much  shorter  intervals  such  as  a  few  times  daily,  to serve  to  freeze  block  chain  and finalize transactions." ... "Although  the  broadcasted  checkpointing  mechanism  is  a form of centralization, we consider it acceptable before a distributed solution is available."

Blackcoin doesn't have a solution but a different approach (changing stake modifier) which might improve security:

The proposed changes are intended to improve security in BlackCoin’s  PoS  protocol  and  were  made  with  optimization in  mind.  With  the  new  protocol  possible  attack  vectors  are reduced to a minimum and the incentive to support the network by having a full node running continuously is clearly increased.

The following is dishonest:

The NeuCoin whitepaper addresses all the cryptocommunity's 'nothing at stake' objections to proof-of-stake and demonstrates mathematically how NeuCoin's design - with improved security over previous proof-of-stake implementations - foils all attack vectors.

[scam confirmed]

So the small holder is still contributing to security, albeit less than continuously contributing.
So 12 small holders doing this will contribute as much to security as foundations running 1 node?
(even though foundations hold 10000x more coin of those 12 small holders?)
Is this correct?

No one other than the central foundations banks are significantly contributing to security! But actually they do not contribute: They dictate!

The only infuence ordinary NoKoiners have is to partially obtain purchasing power.

[scam confirmed]

Did the math:

Assumptions: 100 % of all NoKoiners are staking (actually it will be less)
Reward: 100 % per year
3,000,000,000 premined NoKoins
Block time: 1 minute --> 525,960 blocks per year --> 600,000 blocks in 416.47 days
Presale price: 0.01 $ (actually angle investors paid less, founders paid nothing)
Price will not change over time (actually it will decrease of course)

Person A invested 100 $ in the presale and received 10,000 NoKoins
Person B invested 1000 $ in the presale and received 100,000 NoKoins

Person A has a 0.00033333 % share in the premine. Person A will stake at an average of 1.7532 times a year. In other words: Person A will stake at an average of 2 times in 416.47 days.

Person B has a 0.0033333 % share in the premine. Person B will stake at an average of 17.532 times a year. In other words: Person B will stake at an average of 20 times in 416.47 days.

After 416.47 days, Person A has a total of 100 $ * (1 + 100 % / 2 / 100 %)^2 = 225.00 $, rendering an effective annual interest rate of 109.36 %.

After 416.47 days, Person B has a total of 1000 $ * (1 + 100 % / 20 / 100 %)^20 = 2563.30 $, rendering an effective annual interest rate of 144.65 %.

The larger 1000 $ holder has a 32 % higher effective annual interest rate than the smaller 100 $ holder.
Small holders do not stake 24/7, which will result in an even larger difference or they have to pay a fee for 24/7 staking in the "growth account".
If small 100 $ holders stake less than 6 hours per day, they will most probably do not even stake at all in 416.47 days.
1000 $ is still very very very poor in relation to angle investor's and founder's investment.


TL;DR: NoKoin - The rich get richer and the poor get poorer!

[jonald_fyookball]

The following is dishonest:

The NeuCoin whitepaper addresses all the cryptocommunity's 'nothing at stake' objections to proof-of-stake and demonstrates mathematically how NeuCoin's design - with improved security over previous proof-of-stake implementations - foils all attack vectors.

Agree.  And it is and was one of the main things on their homepage used
to convince people to invest.  Even more deceptive is the fact that
they asked for feedback and offered bounties on feedback (which
by the way are only redeemable in neucoin and haven't actually been paid).
This gives the impression the paper is being heavily scrutinized or is
peer reviewed.  

There has been no peer review other from a handle of forum people
such as myself and Ray Dillinger, who also didn't seem impressed,
and we heard second hand that Sunny King looked at the paper
and said it was "about 80% accurate" but there is no one credible
who is confirming neucoin's wild claims.

[rizzlarolla]

scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please,

Jonald
I thought they might actually be hoping to create nokoin off the back of intelligent responses!

I got bored waiting for replies so, (edit- to such things as WAS THAT THE INNOVATION, Dart?, LOrrev?)

No info/answers forthcoming from nokoin/nokoiners, nothing new there then,
BUT, a great new feature in the nokoin forum user lists!
(discorse have been tinkering lately)

A new column (all time list only) is "Time Read".
http://forum.neucoin.org/users?period=all
It helps to identify a different breed of ZOMBIE users!
(anyone want's to see this, click on "visits", then click again to start from the least)

Different from my previous ZOMBIE lists because these newly identifiable zombies are "SHILL ZOMBIES"
They have been active for MINUTES (rather than never, such as eviltrout)

I have suspected for a while that some "users" were just SHILL ZOMBIES
What would motivate someone to register, maybe placing a personal avatar, only to "read" for 5 minutes or less, then never return, multiplied by hundreds of "users"?
You needn't join the forum to brouse through. There has always been a continual flow of these shills.

Some figures from the all time user list-
825 all time "users" (including banned)
125 read >1 minute
58   read 1 minute
147 read <1minute, >5 minute

so 330 read >5 minute (nearly 40%)
also 297 "users" visited 1 time (or less) never to return. That is over 30% of "users"

BTW, even now, after 2 months ban and only a week on nokoin forum, only 29 "users" are listed with more "time read" than Gekko!.  NomadBR joint5th, gerkin joint 2nd!, but they were "allowed" to stay a little longer than Gekko.
gerkin is still 13th on all time "likes received" list, NomadBR 17th, so no change there in 6 weeks, even though the mods are now liking every post going! The problem is the handful of people left were already above gerkin & NomadBR, no new "real" users are coming through, as I said weeks ago. ("lost" somewhere in these 30 pages)

This is why NomadBR is also still 13th on the "likes given" list, gerkin 19th

THE NOKOIN FORUM IS DEAD

(re-edit- this could be funny, http://forum.neucoin.org/t/any-feedback-from-friends-and-family-who-are-die-hard-alt-coin-lovers/1298)
and again- The 29 "users with more time read than Gekko include mods/team, about 10-12 people!

[scam confirmed]

scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please,

Initial capital                                 Final capital (after 1 year)                                       Effective annual interest rate
100 $                                              196.86                                                                        109.36 %
1,000 $                                           2321.41                                                                      144.65 %
10,000 $                                         23723.42                                                                    149.74 %
100,000 $                                       237766.63                                                                  150.28 %
1,000,000 $                                    2378201.11                                                                150.33 %

[rizzlarolla]

scam confirmed
we/ I need a figure for a "whale" please,

Initial capital                                 Final capital (after 1 year)                                       Effective annual interest rate
100 $                                              196.86                                                                        109.36 %
1,000 $                                           2321.41                                                                      144.65 %
10,000 $                                         23723.42                                                                    149.74 %
100,000 $                                       237766.63                                                                  150.28 %
1,000,000 $                                    2378201.11                                                                150.33 %

So the minnows will get 30% less than the whale!

also if there were 1m nokoin users, with 500k blocks per/yr, would that make it harder for minnows to stake?

(edited for clarity)