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541  Other / Meta / Re: grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 20, 2019, 04:31:42 PM
I don't know but I guess that the rate for grin is a fixed one, at
Code:
0.00675676 BTC via grin, send 2.252253333 grin

The prices and ratios in the forum's automatic payment handling are not permanent, but I only update them manually from time to time.
542  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven. on: January 20, 2019, 02:35:19 AM
You know Grin could easily be the king of in person transactions, imagine just tapping and the payment script gets transferred. Simple as that, no worries about double spend or any bullshit either. The file for transferring funds could really be nice.

Grin transactions are not immune to double-spends. Offline in-person Bitcoin transactions would have the same level of security.
543  Other / Meta / Minor selfmod enhancement on: January 19, 2019, 01:24:50 AM
In the "This is a self-moderated topic" warning, stats will now be printed about how many posts have been deleted if any posts have been deleted. The stats start now, not the beginning of time, and they are cached for quite some time. If any of the deleted posts had any merit before they were deleted, then this whole stat block will be printed in bold. Currently the stats never reset; I haven't decided yet whether this is OK.
544  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 18, 2019, 06:34:43 PM
Despite everyone's biggest fears that keep getting repeated ad nauseum, he flat out told people not to invest in it now seeing as how 60 coins are produced every 60 seconds and its highly experimental, unproven software that may have zero value in the future.

Yeah, I'm not making major purchases now or anything. And I definitely wouldn't mine it if doing so becomes unprofitable (though in fact it seems very profitable right now due to hype). Price-wise, IMO it'll start looking like a good buy if it hasn't been superseded by clones in about a year. I'll be looking for a point of low sentiment at that time. Some people have said that you'll need to wait like 3 years before it escapes from its inflation pit, but keep in mind that Bitcoin's inflation-rate-over-time was roughly the same in its first 4 years; such high initial inflation is why you saw people buying pizzas for 10k BTC like it was nothing. But growth, if it occurs, can overcome even pretty massive inflation.

The tech is just so awesome: a high degree of privacy combined with by far the best decentralization-preserving on-chain scaling tech ever devised, plus several smaller innovations in grin's particular implementation. Even if it was somehow guaranteed to halve in price every year, I'd still consider it cool and want to do something with it.
545  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven. on: January 18, 2019, 04:38:11 PM
So, does a recipient necessarily need prior knowledge that they are about to receive some coins

Yes. Grin transactions always work in a multi-step process like this:
1. The sender runs grin wallet send -m file -d FILE.txt GRIN_AMOUNT, which creates the file FILE.txt.
2. The sender gives FILE.txt to the recipient.
3. The recipient runs grin wallet receive -i FILE.txt, which creates another file FILE.txt.response.
4. The recipient gives FILE.txt.response to the sender.
5. The sender runs grin wallet finalize -i FILE.txt.response, and the transaction is done.

There are also methods involving IP addresses, keybase.io, and a "grinbox address" service, but behind-the-scenes these methods do the same steps as above, where the sender and recipient need to cooperate in order to form the final transaction
546  Other / Meta / Re: grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 18, 2019, 12:02:14 AM
Just got my Copper, paid using Grin Smiley Sweet

Glad it worked!
547  Other / Meta / Re: grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 17, 2019, 03:25:56 PM
Will it be ok to do payments/offer services  in grin in the sections that were exclusively marked for bitcoin?

No.

Can GRIN do this? Can GRIN compete with VISA and remain decentralized and immutable with a fixed supply and no trust in 3rd parties?

s/fixed supply/predictable supply/

Yes, that combined with its privacy is what makes it so exciting. You can probably achieve even greater scaling with BTC+LN, and I consider that quite likely to be what the economy actually goes toward, but grin is a very different and interesting alternative approach.
548  Other / Meta / Re: Massive abuse in the Russian section. on: January 17, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
TMAN, you're coming across as a real asshole here. AFAICT, that topic is highly analogous to the English discussions. The main addition is that they're looking to get more local representation in DT1, which is very reasonable. I'd prefer if people not treat trust lists as an election, but if I had wanted nobody to ever think/talk/strategize about how trust lists affect DT1 selection, I would've kept the DT1 criteria secret.

They quickly found a quote from me where I previously documented that usernames starting with tildes are handled:
"If you want to trust someone whose name begins with a tilde, prefix their name with a backslash."   те если вы хотите высказать доверие юзеру ~ХХХ  в свой список прямого доверия запишите \~ХХХ, если же вы хотите высказать ему недоверие запишите ~\~ХХХ.
So they knew right away that the ~DefaultTrust account was harmless.

I see nothing concerning with xandry's actions there. Nothing there comes close to warranting deletion. Even if someone was openly talking about trying to form a strategic DT1 manipulation group for the express purpose of undermining the system, such a topic should not be deleted; rather, I'd look to handle this within the DT1 selection criteria.
549  Other / Meta / Re: grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 17, 2019, 12:52:13 PM
And i thought Grin won't launch it's mainnet anytime soon. But looks like the client is far from user-friendly and only mid-high end GPU can mine GRIN for now.

Any chance you'll accept another cryptocurrency (XMR, ETH or perhaps DOGE) soon?

XMR is possible, but probably not the others.

I guess I have already proven my point. Didn't expect it this quick though.

Quote
24h Low / 24h High
$6.92 / $261.65

Imagine FOMOing and buying it for $261.65.

Since the inflation rate is so high in the first ~year, I think it will probably go even lower, probably under $1, and I'd expect the price chart of the first year to be a general downward trend. Again, I don't particularly recommend buying this stuff, and I myself am not going to be buying large amounts soon. But if it survives for several years and ends up competing effectively with other coins on scaling and privacy, then the inflation rate starts becoming reasonable even despite its unlimited supply (see my comment here), and we could at that point see an upward price trend. Even at $1 it'd be an extremely risky investment, but in any case it's an extremely interesting piece of tech.

And I'll be periodically adjusting the forum exchange rate, BTW.

We are in a forum where we are suppose to support bitcoin. Everything we do to promote bitcoin but when a character like theymos indirectly publicly vouch for something else then it will create a mess for sure.

Satoshi created Bitcoin and this forum in order to change the world, not to create a "Cult of BTC". In fact, Satoshi recommended creating Namecoin, the first altcoin. (Though Namecoin ended up being one of the bolt-stuff-onto-cloned-Bitcoin systems that I've never really respected.) I'm not going to start jumping on every alt bandwagon and treating every cryptocurrency as just as good as any other, nor do I believe that grin is currently anywhere close to BTC in terms of overall utility. But grin has true merit, and if you're interested in Bitcoin for the same reasons that Satoshi created it (freedom, privacy, and interesting tech), then grin is worthy of acknowledgement.
550  Other / Meta / Re: grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 17, 2019, 03:11:49 AM
Monero

Mimblewimble has privacy features, but it also has the first really impressive, true scaling solution in crypto. Privacy-wise, Monero is probably better overall, but its scaling is abysmal, and neither coin can be treated as an impenetrable black box.
551  Other / Meta / Re: grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 17, 2019, 02:48:12 AM
@theymos - Your grin link seems to be broken at the moment.  Should be: https://grin-tech.org/

I think that grin-tech.org is just down right now. Nevermind, fixed. Thanks.

Kinda dissapointed that Howeycoins can't achieve the same thing despite being older.

Since everyone who invested in howeycoins became a billionaire, I was worried about what would happen to the world economy if I promoted it even more.
552  Other / Meta / grin is now accepted for forum payments on: January 17, 2019, 02:36:30 AM
I'm super excited about grin. All past altcoins have been just Bitcoin with a few bits tacked on; occasionally these extra bits are useful/interesting (eg. Monero or Ethereum), but in the vast majority of cases this extra stuff is just meaningless marketing-oriented garbage. But grin is packed full of useful innovation from top to bottom; moreover, it's clearly built in the same cypherpunk spirit that Bitcoin was: increased freedom/sovereignty through technology.

Therefore, I'm happy to announce that the forum is now accepting grin payments automatically, probably the first site other than exchanges to do so. You'll find a link at the bottom of the evil-fee and copper-membership pages.

grin is new and clunky to use. I don't expect many people to use it, honestly. But I needed to rewrite the forum payments system anyway in order to support LN in the future and to fix some longstanding issues with the old code, so adding grin support worked out nicely.

I don't recommend buying or not buying grin. Due to its emission schedule, I'd guess that its price will have a general downward trend for quite some time, but who knows. Currently I own zero grin (though I will be buying from the forum all grin obtained), I was not paid to add grin support, and in fact not a soul knew that I was going to do so. grin support might be removed later if it dies off or becomes too time-consuming for me to maintain.

I tested this with grin's floonet (testnet), but not mainnet yet since I don't have any grin. Hopefully it works. Smiley



A few observations I had while implementing this:

By default they want you to essentially pay to IP addresses. This was stupid when Satoshi tried it 10 years ago, and it's stupid now. At the very least you should strongly encourage (ie. nearly force) people to give out public keys along with their IPs, since otherwise MITM attacks are trivial. Even then it sucks to require the recipient to run an open-to-the-Internet server at all. And for goodness' sake, don't use the broken/centralized HTTPS system; the Bitcoin Core devs have been going to a lot of trouble trying to remove that garbage from Core.

A better protocol for the copy/paste method is needed. For one, you shouldn't have to use intermediary files. I was annoyed when I did grin wallet send -m file -d - and it actually created a file called "-" instead of writing to stdout like it should.

grin needs to be much better at handling transactions that never continue beyond the first or second step in the three-way transaction process. They probably shouldn't even show up in the main transaction log.

Currently I think that there's no way for the recipient to get the modified slate after running receive the first time (eg. if it gets lost), which is nuts. And currently there appears to be no reasonable method for proving that you sent a transaction.
553  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven. on: January 16, 2019, 06:06:15 PM

I'm not a huge fan of the fixed subsidy, but it is deflationary long-term. Because the subsidy remains the same while the money supply grows (and may shrink due to lost coins), a graph of the inflation rate over time is steadily downward, and will eventually reach low levels. However, since their stated reason for doing this was to ensure that miners are properly incentivized, it would've made more sense to set the subsidy such that the monetary inflation rate is a constant 0.5% or something. As they've designed it, the inflation rate will start out way too high, and then if grin survives for a very long time, it'll eventually become too low to actually meet their goal of incentivizing miners.

Inflation will ensure a general downward price trend for at least the first year, I'd expect, and it becomes sort-of reasonable only after 4 years. Will grin survive that long? Not sure. If you think it will, then it might make sense to buy grin at very cheap prices in its first few years, and this thinking could perhaps stabilize the market somewhat.

Grin inflation rates
Year #Yearly monetary inflation rate
136500%
2100%
350%
433%
525%
620%
717%
814%
1110%
215%
343%

It's possible that people will get just too fed up with the inflation in the first few years, and everyone will move to a clone, similar to the Bytecoin->Monero switch. Beam is too much of an obvious cheap money-grab to succeed IMO, though.

In addition to the money supply issue, grin is a worse store of value than Bitcoin because:
 - The dev culture is built upon a more flexible idea of system consensus. There are expected to be regular hardforks.
 - The crypto is experimental, and the currency is far newer.
 - Smart contracts are more limited, though at this time I'm not exactly sure how much more limited.

A BTC-backed grin clone could be a Bitcoin sidechain, but you won't see this anytime soon. First of all, there sadly hasn't been that much work on Bitcoin sidechains. Also, although you can do a semi-centralized sidechain without any consensus work or widespread costs, a full-security sidechain involves a softfork which would require all Bitcoin full nodes to also be grin-sidechain full nodes, increasing full node costs. I'd guess that if it happens at all, it won't be for 3-5 years, after grin has proven itself. At that point grin could have a significant first-to-market advantage, and its inflation will be reaching reasonable levels.

Unlike the vast majority of other altcoins, grin was basically built in the same spirit as Bitcoin - the same ideology. I'm a "Bitcoin maximalist" because I believe in "the Bitcoin idea/ideology", not as part of some game theoretic strategy to make BTC's price go up. If Bitcoin is out-competed in all respects (which grin is very far from doing, and other altcoins aren't even in contention for), then it'd be good for Bitcoin to be replaced by that competitor.

IMO in 10 years:
 - 30% chance grin is defunct, but roughly the same basic features are provided by other BTC-based off-chain systems such as LN.
 - 25% chance grin is defunct, but basically the same thing exists as a widely-used Bitcoin sidechain.
 - 15% chance BTC is the main store of value in crypto, while grin or a very similar altcoin is used for most daily payments.
 - 1% chance grin advances significantly, and combined with its first-to-market advantage vis--vis its innovations, it out-competes BTC entirely.
 - 14% chance some other altcoin out-competes BTC entirely. It won't be one of the existing ones, except perhaps grin as mentioned above.
 - 15% chance global authoritarianism makes it very difficult to use cryptocurrencies at all, and the whole sector is reduced to a tiny niche.
554  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven. on: January 15, 2019, 04:54:32 PM
Mainnet is released: https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin/releases/tag/v1.0.0

afaiu (but this is not very far at all) it takes a full day for the coinbase to mature, so we will have to be patient?

Damn, you're right. Well, I'll still buy a few grin as soon as people can sell them.
555  Other / Meta / Re: Newbies can now pay a small fee to enable images on: January 15, 2019, 04:43:50 PM
Has anything been written anywhere about the reasons for this? I can't imagine it's a money making measure. I also can't imagine it's going to deter the people who aren't already deterred by it.

It's just that I last changed the price when the BTC/USD price was $12k, so it's drifted from the intended value. Evil fees will also be updated.

The price will be fixed in bitcoins so imagine what will happen when we enter a bull market again.

Then I'll (eventually) adjust it downward again. I like to keep the BTC-denominated price pretty stable and not change it every time the market freaks out in either direction, but it's supposed to have a vaguely consistent real value.
556  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven. on: January 15, 2019, 07:32:06 AM
Are you guys EXCITED????

So if there are no addresses and exchanges of Grin are 'person to person' so to speak, then if I mine on a pool using windows miner, how would I be rewarded for mining ?  Is it by IP, email ?  I don't have a Linux instance currently to view the wallet.

I don't know how it works with mining specifically, but in general: grin payments require a three-way process. This can be done automatically through an IP address or keybase, or you can do it manually like this:

1. The sender runs grin wallet send -m file -d FILE.txt GRIN_AMOUNT, which creates the file FILE.txt.
2. The sender gives FILE.txt to the recipient.
3. The recipient runs grin wallet receive -i FILE.txt, which creates another file FILE.txt.response.
4. The recipient gives FILE.txt.response to the sender.
5. The sender runs grin wallet finalize -i FILE.txt.response, and the transaction is done.

The IP/keybase methods do these same steps, just automatically.

I'm not going to be mining, but I would like to buy some grin ASAP on the first day. If anyone here is lucky enough to quickly mine some, I'll pay $13/grin (in BTC), but only for the first few grin I buy. PM me.
557  Other / Meta / Re: Transparent Polls.... Why no option for this? Why are all polls anonymous? on: January 15, 2019, 07:03:34 AM
I've thought about it before as a poll option, and I think that it would be useful, but implementing it has never approached the top of my to-do list.
558  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: January 14, 2019, 06:01:28 PM
Am I understanding the 'random subset of 100 users' statement correctly?... that we will ultimately end up with a DT1 list of 100, before exclusions, when more people fall into the criteria?

Once there's more than 100 users who would be selected to DT1, a random subset of those eligible will be selected each month. Or that's my current thinking, at least.

This will help prevent people from being unfairly attacked by even a majority of DT1, since some month you might lose the dice roll and find yourself in the minority for a while. As I mentioned in the OP, it creates more of a credible threat of retaliation, which I believe will have a moderating effect overall.

It's a good thing that there are way more DT members. This incentivizes users to properly develop their own trust list rather than stumbling on a path of lunacy as we have scores of users sloshing about the feedback sewers. Beyond that, the value of DT has been diluted immensely and thus reliance upon it as a proper vector for trust isn't the most brilliant idea.

Yes, that's my intention. Once someone thinks, "DT is basically OK, but it's a bit chaotic, and every now and then I see something that I disagree with," then they've graduated from trust-newbie and are ready to build their own list. The old system was too safe/static/universal/untouchable.

(But I don't want DT to be absolute garbage, either, since trust-newbies need some guidance.)
559  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: January 14, 2019, 03:58:51 PM
M (number of V vertices) is not given right?

M is the number of vertices in the input graph, and is known. The number that should be in the optimal output is not known.

Typo on your end in the 2nd optimal solution? I figure you meant either v1 or v3 for one of those vectors?

Right, thanks.
560  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: January 14, 2019, 03:52:43 PM
DT1 has been reconstructed with all of the criteria. Old:
Code:
achow101
actmyname
BitcoinPenny
Blazed
Cyrus
dooglus
gmaxwell
greenplastic
HostFat
JohnUser
krogothmanhattan
Lauda
Mitchell
monkeynuts
OgNasty
owlcatz
qwk
SebastianJu
suchmoon
The Pharmacist
theymos
TMAN
zazarb
New:
Code:
achow101
actmyname
asche
BitcoinPenny
Blazed
coinlocket$
Coolcryptovator
cryptodevil
Cyrus
DarkStar_
dooglus
EcuaMobi
gmaxwell
greenplastic
Halab
Hhampuz
hilariousandco
iasenko
ibminer
ICOEthics
Jet Cash
JohnUser
krogothmanhattan
Lafu
Lauda
Lesbian Cow
LoyceV
marlboroza
minerjones
Mitchell
monkeynuts
mprep
OgNasty
owlcatz
qwk
SebastianJu
suchmoon
TheFuzzStone
The Pharmacist
theymos
TMAN
tmfp
TookDk
vizique
Vod
Welsh
xtraelv
yahoo62278
yogg
zazarb

I plan to do it again early every month from now on, with adjustments as needed. But if we assume that this general system continues forever, the long-term goal is to keep the critera basically stable and then let the list actually grow over time: the goal is not to constantly select the "top 50 forum users" or similar, but to select a wide swath of users who are basically acceptable.
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