you pretend to talk about choice. but then applaud that there is no choice or that someone else is threatening your idols.

so you call out that bitcoin is unfit for use for an underclass. and people should use other networks as their only choice or use a fool node pretending that its a full node by you trying to stroke their ego and say that its the same thing(facepalm)
or if they dont like your games. if they do not like the way a central dev team plan things.. you tell them to go fork off to another network

so YOU try to make it sound like bitcoin should only be used as a payment rail for reserve settlements. for the elite exchanges and subnetwork hub managers to settle on, where mere normal users should instead use other networks and be bunched into being managed by hub managers having discretion over if they will sign and agree with a payment you want to make. which they can refuse and hold hostage

and when that doesnt work to convince people to downgrade from wanting to be an actual full node.. YOU join the hymn sheet singers that technology is stuck in the 1990's-2005 era where being a full node is for only the rich and people should use the fool node setting pretending it means the same thing as full yet again

so YOU then try to sway those that want to be a full node not to be.. and instead be a fool node, even when they say in this topic they want to be a full node. by you pretending they are a full node when infact they become a fool node if they followed your advice. and you are not giving them an INFORMED choice of what the actual difference is

please grow up

first to blackhat

things you are IGNORING

1. people using Ln to buy things like coffees and normal small purchases you guys for years have said are not suitable for bitcoin but what people can do on LN
people are not going to be taking a laptop or desktop around with them.. they are going to be reliant on phone app wallets..

2. those phone app wallets are just GUI representations displaying msats. .. mostly funded by imbound balance from a service (partner) own stash which he is presumed but not guaranteed to have on a output directed to you.. presumed becasue those services usually ask you to download their prefered wallet too.

you pretend people can just press a button and see the commitment and know they at they can check its a real 6 confirm utxo.
but here is the thing

THOR TURBO PROVED YOU ALL WRONG

3. same goes for the 1:1000 rate
you HOPE its a 1:1000 rate but you dont find out until you are trying to settle.

i know you pretend that everyone reviews code and then has some command line to then search for raw data and read the content to see their msat balance amount is fair rated to their state commitment amount at 1:1000 rate.. but people dont do that. especially your niche userbase you are trying to recruit that are just phone app users.

you lot are the ones not thinking with open minds. you cant even want  to admit that LN has flaws.
LN has no network standard protection to weed out bad actors or nodes/apps that are abusive. (abusers: not following rules)

all you lot dream about is everyone floods into use LN and then go to sleep so you can raid their funds.
you lot never seem to have the risk awareness mindset as if you care about protecting the users you want to grab and pull into your silly subnetwork

4. LN does not have mechanisms to weed out bad actors using non backed channels or where states are abused by changing the 1:1000 by changing it to say 1:10 on their outbound amount designated for their victim partner they want to cheat.. again a service can do this and the network has no security to prevent it

5. bitcoin network however if i make a payment without a confirmed utxo backing the input.. . the relay network wont relay the transaction
if someone was to try sending abusive data. nodes ban them as peers and dont relay stuff to them.
LN has none of that

.. while you go around saying wrong because wrong and heres some quotes about network chainhash(not even part of my latest thing ) or  your other quotes about AFTER commitment scenarios.. or comments about rounding when the conversation is about none of that..

when i have multiple times now been talking about the problem with the.. CREATING commitment stage.. from the onion payment mismatch of value possibility via abusing the 1:1000 rate

6. you are also saying "if doesnt matter because"
but its that "it doesnt matter because you can broadcast any time.." statement by you lot that show how callous and ignorant you are.. because by the point of broadcasting it..  then its too late!!


now to n0nce:
as for you thinking there is no 1:1000 rate and its just some rounding thing where only 1 sat can be lost

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwire/msat.go#L12
here the 1000 rate.. and look how its used alot to convert msat to sat.. which you are avoiding reading and understanding

yes n0nce you showed L19 of same github of a COMMENT misinforming. but you never cared to see the CODE or read the entire thing

the mSatScale uint64 = 1000

is not the same as "if <1000 then 0"

if you truly understood all the code in its context and not just the comment sections. you would understand the rounding mechanism. and the scale ratio conversion mechanism are different

if you can only read comments in code and not the code itself..
try this one
https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/lnwire/msat.go#L40

now learn their comment terms of their comments section i linked.  where rounding is a different function to 'shedding by a factor of 1000'

then you might see the different function i am speaking of

once you can actually be bothered to talk about the risk factor i have been talking about. then i wont ignore your silly comments about something else you are trying to redirect the conversation to

more ignorance and moving away from the issue by trying to think its a rounding error.. it shows you do not observe or think outside the utopia promotions

also my point has always been. that LN has no network consensus to audit channels to ensure that funds exist to honour payments...

well its your network. go play with it.
just dont try jumping to the bitcoin community pretending LN is better than bitcoin. its not.

enjoy your niche market and accept your risks and stay blind. but dont over promise stuff about your network and then call crap on about the bitcoin network while hiding the big flaws of your network

oh and by the way. even pre-confirm.. the bitcoin network wont relay payments that have no valid confirmed UTXO. .. unlike your silly network that would.

and last lesson

inside a forum bout crypto.. inside a topic about a subnetwork.. you do not need to wear the promotion happy utopian hat..
people would have already heard of LN to even be in this topic. so you do not need to be on constant sales pitch .. instead people want to know the hard truths. the risks they should know about.
so wear the risk awareness hat. not the promoter hat

sounding like a over-promising snake oil salesman helps no one even genuine people that want to temporarily give a niche service a try for just a short period or a potential long term user.

when you OBSERVE that the audience of this topic is majority existing LN users. you will soon learn kiss assing a promotion sales bitch of over promise.. is futile in this topic

there is not a population problem for jobs

what there is a problem is for taxes and pensions to prop up the mistakes made of the last generations

many pension trusts have been raided and need to be refilled before people reach retirement age and so it needs more tax and pension plan investment to fill those pots..

the next financial crises will be pension pot funding.

..
here is the US Male population by age
00-04   9.62
05-09   10.38
10-14   10.99
15-19   11.02
20-24   10.97
25-29   11.38
30-34   11.67
35-39   11.26
40-44   10.59
45-49   9.88
50-54   10.44
55-59   10.63
60-64   10.33

more people are entering retirement than being born
BUT there are alot in the lower working age NOW of 15-45 that will keep things going..

the FEAR is if in 5 years time the todler rate remains below 10m every time for about 2 decades. then it can affect things for those at the end of their working life

both are poor

renbtc and wbtc are ethereum based. so their peg structure is multiple steps away from any protocol that links to bitcoin. its just market manipulation of arbitrage that tries to keep them inline. which can break easily as seen by many stable coins over the years.

heck i dont even like liquids Lbtc nor LN msats.. but they are .. (disclaimer not always honoured) supposedly backed by a locked UTXO which is then used as the peg on the other network.. unlike the ERC tokens which are just market set

the population per location rate change of 2020-2021 was about covid restrictions. people moved to havens where mask wearing was not mandatory

alot of celebrities for instance migrated to australia because they managed to keep covid at the borders meaning no restrictions within australia

however. this year forward those that can afford to move would do so for tax reasons. and also price of goods reasons

EG cost of bread from $0.64- to over $1.38

EG cost of water from $216- to over $450

EG cost of electric from $0.09- to over $0.22

only a few days ago you quoted me saying before that , that not everyone NEEDS to be a full node just to use bitcoin..
so you know my stance
but those that WANT to be a full node should ensure they are being a full node. and not following fools idea's that a less than full node is a full node

YOU are the one telling people to use bitcoin less and use other networks instead
YOU are the one telling people to stop being a full node because thy can be a fool node . without even highlighting what users are not able to do or offer by being a fool node instead of a full node

you are not proving me wrong you are evading the points with utopia. yo pretend there is nothing to see.. as if saying nothing to see = nothing wrong..
only the blind think the path ahead is clear .. until they hit something

as for the 'not used for cold store'

because its not a "cold" system its a "hot" stay online or risk losing..

however in that "hot" system you love.. you do want people to stay locked in with value for months and not settle up to real bitcoin..
so its not a cold "store".. its a hot "store".. with all the risks that come with it

so your utopia is about storing value long term.. just in a insecure method that can be stolen just for sleeping

and your first silly responce to nonce in your last post .. is again you BOTH only talking about the rounding of 999 msat. ignoring the point of the whole 1:1000 conversion rate

seems you have not even mentioned the 1:1000 and instead just evaded it to only wanna tak about rounding insignificances

seems if you cant tell the difference between rounding
1,000,000,999msat
=
1,000,000sat
where its still the 1:1000 rate jut rounding the excess

where as
1,000,000,900msat
=
10sat
by changing the 1:1000 rate which is not about "just rounding error"
because more then 0.900sats are lost


meaning the other guy or miners get 999,990 extra. by just editing a few lines of code that no one notices in a app update until months later when they finally settle up. because for the months before settling up they ware paying/displaying only msats that have no 'coin control' to ensure there is a guaranteed peg back to a promised value, leaving users thinking its a 1:1000 rate.. until its too late

moons gravity is super low
it requires less energy to propel garbage into space than to drive it to a crater 20km away(EG landfill) to be "out of sight out of mind"

also moon activities would do more recycling.

and outside the "submarine" base there is no atmosphere to lock in carbon so it too would escape into space more freely.

so moon living wil see less waste.. just over a few decades a tail of waste heading towards the sun

seems you know the word "fool" but not learned the word "full"

a full node does all network features. thats why its called full
this includes being a archive seed of the FULL blockchain for other peers wanting to initial block download

turning off feature or limiting how many blocks you are willing to seed to other peers is less then full.

it also reduces a diverse subset of nodes able to service new users and irregular users that dont sync up often.
causing a more centralisation effect of lesser nodes having to take on that service.

a full node is (simple logic common sense) a node that does all features

maybe we should call pruned nodes a "fool" node to meet your style

targets are set not due to what you think..

quick history
in the 1980's they realised fossil fuel reserves would deplete by 2050(no coincidence to climate deadline)

this triggered things like the gulf wars and many incidents of wanting to find new sources or take sources from others to stem the tide as long as possible

here is the thing though.
there will always bee a need for oil and gas after 2050 even if they took all normal utility away from the retail.consumer market.

and so they put a stop of "consumer waste" utility 20 years before so that the remaining 20years supply can extend for more then 100 years beyond the 2050 ultimate deadline

a tesla is not "expensive" i can think of alot of luxery cars more expensive than a tesla

however a 500billion market cap. does not mean the company has 500billion of hard cold fiat stored in some reserve. its just a share valuation multiplier game

if a tesla costs $50k base model with a 10% profit mark up from parts cost to retail sale
thats $5k a car. meaning to put $500b into a reserve would mean that tesla would need to sell 100,000,000 cars

it is this sticking point that will hurt most

years ago tesla was the sole EV car manufacturer of any prominance. and so they "owned" the ev market. meaning if 120million US cars needed to convert to EV by 2030 the thought process was that telsa would take on the 100m cars and leave 20m for other brands. thus numbers fit the market cap

however now most brands are in the ev market, so tesla dominance is diluted. meaning chances of building 100m cars and selling them is less demanded and less chance of achieving.

and thats before all the economic drama about "loans" that will sway people away from buying tesla compared to a VW or smaller car.

..
i feel tesla needs to diversify, instead of building whole cars that need to meet some safety standard (impact of a wall or other vehicle) they can just manufacture the power trains(motors) and licence it out to other brands

..
that being said. on the whole scheme of things. teslas EV car business model is not to just be a car retailer. its actually to use the car retail market as a R&D experiment to develop EV's for the space colonist plan . where he has received many many grants and investment tfor space mining research which afforded him to bumb start the earth retail car market stuff.

its also why he is doing "boring" (dirt digging) and solar and such. 

the jobs market is not the problem of population numbers

in the 1940's men coming back from war found their wives having jobs and doing things men did. meaning less jobs available for men.

this was not a 50% population growth. this was just giving jobs to non-men

this is why in the 1950's ther were big campaigns, tv shows and stuff trying to set a stereotype that "a womans place is in the kitchen" to try to get women out of the job market and back to being house wives..

disclaimer:
women were never all "housewives" woman for centuries have had jobs and worked. however for centuries women did not enter certain industries such as construction, management. etc but woman did work for centuries in other industries

..
more recently we are seeing a change again. it used to be that people started at the bottom and promoted their way to the top. whereby managers of companies were atleast 40+ year old before getting those titles. now we are seeing fresh graduates becoming CEO's

other things like the working age changed from 55 to now approaching nearly 70. meaning more people staying in the jobs market

and ofcourse efficiency changes of mass production where by many jobs are no longer required. meaning new industries need to be invented to have jobs for those that cant get a job in legacy industries

however this has not helped much.
for instance in the 1950's a retailer would have 1000 customers and 5 staff which is a 1:200 staff:customer ratio

we now have industries where 7000 staff service 350million customers
1:50000 staff:customer ratio(twitter employee:user rate)

dont imagine a moon base as some bio-dome suburb

imagine it as launching a submarine with crew cabins and workspaces inside where by instead of a propeller at the back.. its a rocket.

where they live and work in a "space submarine" concept

a moon nuclear power station

rockets like space X starship have a huge payload. enough to fit a submarine nuclear plant inside it. and thats exactly what is being planned..

dont imagine large nuclear plants that power earth cities. imagine submarine nuclear power engines being sent to the moon. as a "plug-n-play" system to power a engineering teams sleeping/working quarters

again imagine it like the capacity of a submarine which can service a crew of upto 100 "colonist" engineers per sub-power plant

---

asteroid mining:

one space X starship has a payload of ~100 tonnes

remember just 1 tonne is: 35274ounces ($56,438,400 of gold per tonne)
meaning it "could" carry $5.6billion of refined gold

if it costs $100m for a return trip to and from moon/asteroid that means it need to collect 2.3 tonnes of gold to break even

star ship can carry about 100 tonnes

so im sure the mining cost is not going to be 50x the transport cost

.
earth mining is much more expensive due to the fact that gold is not centered in a small lump. it has been due to the planet having land air and water. distributed an ancient asteroid craters content of gold over thousands of miles. meaning its like 1000x les gold per soil content on earth, than in a asteroid lump in space

EG: earth stats is an acceptable   soil 1:1,000,000 ratio
asteroid content of 1,1000 is acceptable

..
as for the master plan

its this:
destroy/break up and asteroid and send it on a safe speed trajectory towards the moon. due to no gravity the thrust and fuel burn of moving it to the moon is negligable.

once on the moon its refined to take the unwanted material away and consolidate the rare minerals into payloads.
then send that payload of rare mineral to earth

firstly bitcoins ATH. was not a price point of sustained "value" of long term standing. where the crash was a unprecedented activity caused by some negative thing

bitcoins value is not derived from the tops. but the bottoms. the periodic bottoms underneath the market speculation. where the bottoms raise up slowly over time

market speculations above this is the random whimsy of user sentiment of how much premium they are prepared to pay to get bitcoin above value.

many factors can and do affect this sentimental whimsy of speculation. but when the ATH hit last year.. that ATH was not a value point. but a speculations that some felt was worth buying upto until yep. no one else wanted to buy upto. and so the price CORRECTED backk down to value

right now that value is being tested.. seeing how low it can get before seller refuse to sell for lower or for all those that can sell to break even/profit. do until there is no one left willing to sell for less. which then creates the sustainable value  to then price discover above that for the next market cycle.

---

as for fake bitcoins
(listing only a few prominent examples.. of many that exist)
binance sidechain wbtc is not bitcoin
liquids  sidechain Lbtc is not bitcoin
LN msats is not bitcoin
renBTC is not bitcoin
custodial balance database is not bitcoin

these other network coins are not bitcoin because bitcoin never leaves the bitcoin blockchain. if you are playing around with value on other networks pegged at the btc price rate. be warned that the peg/conversion mechanism can back fire and leave you holding less/nothing when you decide to swap/convert/withdraw

---

that said if people are "trading" using the other network coin for fiat. that can create its own market sentiment. where price movements and wiggles can have a separate chart scribble than the true bitcoin/usd market

obviously people can arbitrage across to profit from the differences which then end up trace/shadow the other market to come into line with the other networks. where they all end up looking the same pattern/price

however if other network pegged representations become more popular then the real bitcoin/USD market this can then become more manipulated by airdroping fake minted coin on the other network to then mess with the markets. because these other networks of bitcoin representation dont have the same protocols, decentralisation and security features to protect from supply manipulations.

sharing "swappable" batteries between a car vs an e-bike is not going to be a thing. because the whole chassis design of a car is completely different to a bike.. the battery packs of a car cant just be chucked onto a bike

however
what we will see is yes HGV will have their batteries unplugged from the truck unloaded and a charged battery put in.

more like a F-1 pit stop rather then a petrol station

where the 'pit-stop" then charges the removed battery to then give to another HGV customer the next day.

where they have a garage/warehouse charging many batteries overnight

instead of petrol pump stations, you will see warehouse and loading bays.. at truck stops and distribution centres, rather than standard "gas station" locations

...
things like  cars and bikes can be home charged or charged at shopping mall car parks by just plugging in an electric plug while people do other daily activities, whilst they charge

you will not see "gas station" location activity in the future. more so mall carpark charging scenario and home charging

things like private transport. public transport(buses/taxis)
taxi companies/bus companies would have their own network of outlets for their drivers to pit-stop at where they too would have their own network of pit stops in different towns

yes taxi's and buses would need a re-design. but hey the bus/taxi companies change vehicle design as part of business anyway

just so people know

they did not change eth to bitcoin direct

they changed eth(native) to renbtc(eth(erc token) and then
we can only presume they swapped renbtc for btc at 1:1 meaning no price changes
or renbtc for fiat meaning a change on the different market thats not the btc:usd market

anyways
liquids Lbtc is not bitcoin.. its another networks representation of bitcoin
binance Wbtc is not bitcoin.. its another networks representation of bitcoin
renbtc is not bitcoin.. its another networks representation of bitcoin
Ln msat is not bitcoin.. its another networks representation of bitcoin
custodian database btc is not bitcoin

bitcoin only exists on the bitcoin network. no one can take it off the bitcoin network no one can put it back on the network

these other network only have representations which are "supposedly" backed by some [other] entity holding the keys to real bitcoin stash

if people say "lost bitcoin". its not lost.. all 19m bitcoin in circulation are still in circulation/still exist on the network. its just moved to a different address..

if someone had renbtc. then yes that can get "lost" when unlocking it from its subnetwork/altnet to eth

if a service says they dont have it. its not gone. its just in someone elses control

fiat numbers however can be manipulated where a companies valuation can be inflated into a large number without having any fiat. and when it becomes there is no reserves. a companys fiat valuation can shrink to zero without fiat changing hands

most of that is bitfinex locking up value. not for current users but the potential of future users.. its basically setting up liquidity for a "if future" not any current stat of current utility.

also comparing bitcoin adoption. to things like
"custodian users"
"subnetwork users"
"sidechain users" is not true bitcoin adoption

if people do not experience the self custody life of actually having funds on their bitcoin network key, where they can move funds without a channel partner or middleman agreement. or have to pay the network fee's and see their funds confirmed and settled in the immutable ledger of the bitcoin network.. they are not actually using bitcoin

balances on websites, other networks: lbtc, wbtc, msat are not bitcoin

bitcoin never leave the bitcoin network. and that the beauty and security of it

ok i stand corrected. i was doing quick search and some were saying he was getting famous in bitcoin trading while working for jane street 2014+
but then went solo and got more famous working for himself in 2017+

as for the $32b+ valuation
my belief is simply offering out XXX million FTT valueless tokens
where some investors bough up initial ~$400m for only less than XX thousand token. to give a market cap of $32b+ instantly even if only $400m changed hands.. much like most "funding rounds" hand over less money than the company valuation becomes
(not using exact numbers just random demo numbers for expressing an example)

this is not a critique or a poke. just a genuine question about the difference between gmax of 2016 and gmax of 2022

have you severed all ties with the DCG family(daughter: blockstream) or are you still part of their inner santum?

i genuinely ask because i might give you a break from seeing you as a threat if your not part of the corporate agenda of the barry silbert roadmap of bitcoin of the last 7 years.

and wondering if there is any contagion risk to yourself which you worry about in regards to the effects of FTX on DCG