XMR vs DRK

[Sapereaude]

Y'all see Monero is like flying cars. They sound great! I mean you don't have to sit in traffic, you can go places faster and aren't limited by roads.

Problem is they can't work and Monero as a currency doesn't work. Right now I can sit my father down help him download the Dark\Dash wallet and have him up and running in a few minutes. Let me reiterate that, in a few minutes he understood it, but also he could go use it. There are plenty of real places that accept dark/dash even the darkmarkets. It works and that's why people are using it, hell that's why people use or adopt anything. That is why we all driving cars instead of flying contraptions.

So I don't give a flying mongoose about any whitepaper or promises until it's easy to use and widespread. Monero has had a year to do this and it not anywhere near either of these goals.

Lastly if the Dark/Dash tech doesn't work then there would be a ton of money made by anybody who could prove that to the cryptocurrency community, so the fact that after months no one has done so is strong proof that the technology is solid.

I will bet you $500 that a blind test with a non-technical person will have them up and running and working with MyMonero faster and easier than on the DarkDashcoin wallet.

And before you throw a little tantrum, we've openly acknowledged that MyMonero is the stop-gap solution until we have built the foundation necessary to support a core GUI. So let's compare Apples with Packard Bells, shall we?

That is exactly my point a year later Monero only has a stop-gap solution... and promises.

Our stop-gap solution is way better than your so called real solution, i can even send Monero with mixins on my mobile phone.

Sorry that we don't market our stuff as perfect in a misleading way like drk does it. bazinga.

please stop the own goals, its getting too easy.

a) Your stop-gap solution is not better that a working GUI wallet.

b) You saying you have concrete proof from several sources that the the Dash technology doesn't work? You should release this information immediately and watch Dash drop in market cap, but... you won't post solid proof. All you will do is quote some other posts or rant and rave without providing any coherent logical response or any clear evidence.

[majamina]

The biggest problem with Monero is that it's being lead by people with zero business sense.

If it were a business your opinion on the matter of our "business sense" might count for something, but it isn't and it isn't trying to be one either. You might reconsider your statement in light of that. I have a pretty good idea you have no clue what you are talking about.

are you not trying to compete in a space where big business is increasingly present....some business smarts would count for something, surely?

[othe]

1) A wallet that works everywhere without syncing a blockchain and lets me send instantly anonymous is not better than Desktop only wallet?  Ok if you think so, the general population might disagree. No one uses Bitcoin-QT.
2) No idea what you interpret into my words, but the problems of coinjoin are known.

[smooth]

It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.

Perhaps he thought it's better to make sybil attacks harder. It's basically free to launch as many full nodes as required.

He may have thought that (I'm not sure I buy it) but it doesn't work, because there is still no irrevocable cost incurred for bad behavior. If masternodes are profitable then the bad ones are more profitable as the good ones. In a competitive market this will mean that only the bad ones are profitable.

The argument about "losing the value of your coins" doesn't work because it make a few false assumptions including that cheating leads to total collapse and the inability to hedge with derivatives. Both of these and certainly the second only apply in an immature cryptocurrency toy, not in a scaled up system.

Are you talking about DDoS attacks?

No I'm talking about masternode spying. DDoS is a whole other matter, and would be helped not hurt by having an unlimited number of nodes, I think that is pretty obvious

[Joshuar]

The biggest problem with Monero is that it's being lead by people with zero business sense. The team is infected with this misguided sense of "fairness" or similar garbage ideals. You can see the manifestation of this idiocy in Monero's emission. Among the worst I've ever seen. Instead of releasing quickly, and thus having low inflation, Monero releases over about 4 years, dramatically limiting returns.

The developers don't realize that very few people make investment decisions based on emission schedules. If you need evidence, look at how Darkcoin is rising as you guys spread the news of the instamine! Is there any more obvious way to beat it into your heads that people don't care?

So, this is what it gets down to for you, making a quick buck.

Fairness is a garbage ideal? Sure, maybe for those that want to get rich overnight through the detriment of others. As others have pointed out, more than 1/3 of all Darkcoin's err Dash's available at this moment, are tied up in Masternodes. Yea sure, that means pumping/dumping Dash is relatively easy, but it also reinforecs the point that Dash is nothing more than a pump/dump scheme, having low liquidity means it will never get used a currency(Please don't bring in denominations, as you can do that math and see how it's liquidity is still affected). This post of yours confirms that you value Dash as nothing more than a way to make you money. Thanks for this.

It's sad to see that the entire cryptocommunity here has turned into nothing more than a get rich quick scheme, and you post embodies the ideals of all those supporting Dash and the other coins that only care about making money. You said it yourself, you don't care about fairness, you don't care about ethics, you just care about pump/dumps. Good job.

I bolded all the parts of your post that emphasize just what's wrong with the altcoin community. Then you guys wonder why Bitcoiners classify most altcoins as "shitcoins". Shame.

[majamina]

Please don't bring in denominations, as you can do that math and see how it's liquidity is still affected

please then do the maths and show me how liquidity is still affected....as a DRK holder I'm genuinely interested in this.

[fluffypony]

explain how it requires trust? my understanding is that masternodes are randomly selected, there is no way of knowhing which nodes will be selected, so an attacker has an unrealistic chance of owning the correct nodes required to intercept the transaction lock...

You have to trust the honesty of the MasterNodes that vote, that's what I mean when I speak about a system designed from an assumed-trust instead of an assumed-malice perspective. The other avenue here is an attacker can disrupt every single InstantX attempt by serving up modified (but still valid) transactions for every InstantX transaction they observe, which will make those InstantX transactions fall back to normal verification.

That's why jgarzik (Bitcoin Core Dev) wrote this fantastic post: "The process of consensus "settles" upon a timeline of transactions, and this process -- by design -- is necessarily far from instant. Alt-coins that madly attempt 10-second block times etc. are simply a vain attempt to paper over this fundamental design attribute: consensus takes time."

The solution to this is not a centralised and trusted voting network, it's to use off-chain or side-chain transactions for rapidity, and regularly settle back to the mainchain.

i understand your point but I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out. Bitcoin has problems with mining share undermining it's trustless nature which pose a far greater threat than Evan's ability to roll back new features. The control he has is for the security of the coin and investors realise that even though opponents, such as yourself, try to make out otherwise.

Perhaps a closer analogy than mining pools is the fact that the Bitcoin github project has a handful of collaborators, and they are all able to surreptitiously merge malicious code. The problem is that this is visible, and other will raise the red flag, whereas the spork key can be used to muck with the network with nobody knowing.

It's not so much "do you trust Evan", but more "do you trust that his opsec is so tight that no attacker, no matter how motivated and powerful, will ever gain access to the key to abuse it?" I don't even trust myself to secure my own computer, and I can assure you I have a significantly higher level of paranoia and tech-savvyness than most. The solution is not to layer complexity by splitting the key up over multiple locations (they have to come together anyway to be used), the solution is to discard a dangerous and broken mechanism.

[Brilliantrocket]

The biggest problem with Monero is that it's being lead by people with zero business sense.

If it were a business your opinion on the matter of our "business sense" might count for something, but it isn't and it isn't trying to be one either. You might reconsider your statement in light of that. I have a pretty good idea you have no clue what you are talking about.

It may not be a literal business, but it's a competitive environment that is similar to running a business. Evan is using his experience with finance and investing to not only create an anonymous payment solution, but to create it in a way that most benefits investors. You guys have this false notion that people care about emission schedules. You have very idealistic notions, and that will hurt Monero in the long run. The world is not ideal, and no one will use Monero just because it's the fairest coin.

Evan understands this, and the instamine actually allowed him to fund development, while you guys have to beg for donations because of your stupid ideals. It's a shame, as I will freely admit that Cryptonote is a more elegant solution than Darksend.

[Sapereaude]

That is exactly my point a year later Monero only has a stop-gap solution... and promises.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience is a virtue. Good things come to those who wait.

I would rather wait for a masterpiece from a genius painter than have 100 or a 1000 or a A MILLION sloppy hackjobs from an average artist in the meantime.

Sure I would love a masterpiece, but if I show up a year later and see the "Genius" smearing feces on the canvas and then yelling/drooling that he is much better technically than all the other artists out there and that someday, someday this putrid crusty thing will be a masterpiece. Yeah I think men in white coats would be showing up soon.

[othe]

We don't beg for donations, we ask  - the same that bitcoin does.

Unlike Evan we are real men with balls who put their own money into this, without screwing others.

[fluffypony]

I lack the expertise to digest all of that right now, but can't you DDoS the other full nodes and get the market to yourself?

Sure, but we're talking orders of magnitude here, and the incentive is not "profit", the incentive is only there to cover your expenses for running a full node. That makes attacking other nodes worthless, because it won't increase your payments enough to make it worthwhile.

[Brilliantrocket]

We don't beg for donations, we ask  - the same that bitcoin does.

Unlike Evan we are real men with balls who put their own money into this, without screwing others.

More useless idealism. I wonder how much consolation that will bring if you end up losing to Darkcoin? Nice guys finish last.

[Joshuar]

Please don't bring in denominations, as you can do that math and see how it's liquidity is still affected

please then do the maths and show me how liquidity is still affected....as a DRK holder I'm genuinely interested in this.

3mill(# between instamine which had 4mill coins and current masternodes holding up 2mill coins) * 10(0.1 dash, most reasonable denomination to use)=30million dash taken out of circulation


Then there's the remaining 2.2million dash(there are currently 5.2million dash mined), multiply that by 10 also and you get 22million dash in circulation.


So even if you use the the denomination of 0.1 instead of 1 full dash, youd still have 30million locked up in masternodes/instamine(downplaying that) and only 22million in circulation. Tell me how that isn't a problem when more than half the supply is in masternodes/instamined and less than half is available for purchase? That's what leads to extremely high volatility.

[fluffypony]

The biggest problem with Monero is that it's being lead by people with zero business sense. The team is infected with this misguided sense of "fairness" or similar garbage ideals.

So here's an open secret: I was C-level at a listed multinational for several years before leaving to start an import/export company (which is still in operation and is within the group of companies I am now chairman of). Just because I retain technical ability doesn't mean I don't also know how to reorient business units and cull dead products to better maximise a company's EBITDA.

Nonetheless, a FOSS project isn't a company, and breaking a social contract for the sole purpose of rewarding "investors" that did nothing more than bought some coins created by mathematics is...well...not going to happen.

[BlockaFett]

The biggest problem with Monero is that it's being lead by people with zero business sense.

If it were a business your opinion on the matter of our "business sense" might count for something, but it isn't and it isn't trying to be one either. You might reconsider your statement in light of that. I have a pretty good idea you have no clue what you are talking about.

It may not be a literal business, but it's a competitive environment that is similar to running a business. Evan is using his experience with finance and investing to not only create an anonymous payment solution, but to create it in a way that most benefits investors. You guys have this false notion that people care about emission schedules. You have very idealistic notions, and that will hurt Monero in the long run. The world is not ideal, and no one will use Monero just because it's the fairest coin.

Evan understands this, and the instamine actually allowed him to fund development, while you guys have to beg for donations because of your stupid ideals. It's a shame, as I will freely admit that Cryptonote is a more elegant solution than Darksend.

Hey rocket don't bother.

The 2 XMR core devs are here trolling about DRK instead of coding as usual

Plus nearly all XMR is through one exchange: Poloniex

...where we find a huge XMR markets box and a trollbox with a fulltime XMR pump team and mods backing them.  With comments like:

zhalox: And when that happens, XMR will rise farther than LTC rose from 1.11 to 48.48 USD ladies & gentlemen

So really it doesn't matter - XMR buying is centralized and they control the Polo trollbox so they can control the price.

Team XMR is just trying to run their latest pump with the drk rise

we might as well be arguing on a DRK vs PayCoin.

[Lebubar]

Did you think that if devs own 40% like you are saying lying , post thing like that ?

WTB 20,000 Darkcoin for 1 BTC, PM me!

[Joshuar]

We don't beg for donations, we ask  - the same that bitcoin does.

Unlike Evan we are real men with balls who put their own money into this, without screwing others.

More useless idealism. I wonder how much consolation that will bring if you end up losing to Darkcoin? Nice guys finish last.

So now you're basically letting it all out, and saying that you just care about making money. Asking for donations is useless idealism to you, so you'd rather instamine instead. Gotcha.

Darkcoin is gonna have a bright future with it's instamine, faulty masternodes, and terrific community spirit. (sarcasm)

[fluffypony]

a) Your stop-gap solution is not better that a working GUI wallet.

Buddy, I've offered you $500 to demonstrate this. Stating it as fact does not make it so.

[majamina]

You have to trust the honesty of the MasterNodes that vote, that's what I mean when I speak about a system designed from an assumed-trust instead of an assumed-malice perspective. The other avenue here is an attacker can disrupt every single InstantX attempt by serving up modified (but still valid) transactions for every InstantX transaction they observe, which will make those InstantX transactions fall back to normal verification.

Yes I realise that the masternodes are trusted, but you would need to compromise an unrealistic number of them to mount this kind of attack.

Yes, consensus across nodes that are trivial to acquire takes time. This is not the same as consensus across nodes that require significant collateral to acquire, no?

I must say that I like debating with you, your language is excellent.

It's not so much "do you trust Evan", but more "do you trust that his opsec is so tight that no attacker, no matter how motivated and powerful, will ever gain access to the key to abuse it?" I don't even trust myself to secure my own computer, and I can assure you I have a significantly higher level of paranoia and tech-savvyness than most. The solution is not to layer complexity by splitting the key up over multiple locations (they have to come together anyway to be used), the solution is to discard a dangerous and broken mechanism.

Fair points, but I think it's reasonable to trust Evan during the early development of the coin - that is priced in as far as I'm concerned....the spork in it's present state isn't a permanent feature as far as I know, it's just to allow rapid development.

What exactly would happen if someone got the spork key? They could roll the latest features back to a recent, stable version? Hardly sky falling in territory is it?
 

[Joshuar]

The biggest problem with Monero is that it's being lead by people with zero business sense.

If it were a business your opinion on the matter of our "business sense" might count for something, but it isn't and it isn't trying to be one either. You might reconsider your statement in light of that. I have a pretty good idea you have no clue what you are talking about.

It may not be a literal business, but it's a competitive environment that is similar to running a business. Evan is using his experience with finance and investing to not only create an anonymous payment solution, but to create it in a way that most benefits investors. You guys have this false notion that people care about emission schedules. You have very idealistic notions, and that will hurt Monero in the long run. The world is not ideal, and no one will use Monero just because it's the fairest coin.

Evan understands this, and the instamine actually allowed him to fund development, while you guys have to beg for donations because of your stupid ideals. It's a shame, as I will freely admit that Cryptonote is a more elegant solution than Darksend.

Times like these make me wish that Satoshi would come back and give his opinion. I'd love to see it...