XMR vs DRK

[generalizethis]

I don't understand how anyone could not interpret the instamine to be a scam:

1) Evan tells everyone to go to sleep, and that he "definitely" won't launch without notice.
2) He launches a couple hours later, while everyone is asleep. Linux only btw.
3) Over a million coins are mined in 8 hours.
4) Soon later the block reward is dramatically reduced to a small fraction of what it was.

I truly can't fathom how anyone could even try to downplay this.
It makes more sense now, because folks want to protect their investment. But it's astonishing that anyone continued to support him at all when this first came to light.

Greed + Law of Attraction = people doing irrational things in the pursuit of an irrational dream. They won't listen to the hard facts because they can't reconcile what brought them to drk (greed) to legitimate concerns over its privacy and development. I was drawn away from drk and toward Monero because, like some of the BTC devs, I saw a real path toward an e-cash and a dev team with a legitimate goal and path. If you're a drk defender, ask yourself, "Are the criticism of drk rational? Am I being rational when I defend against these criticisms?" If you just believe the Monero devs are jealous and making attack vectors up, you're probably on the way to shitsville--as in "Oh, shit! Why didn't I listen more carefully?"

Ok that's a triple-troll combo, i'm posting.

1. How come you all sound like News Anchors? "The block reward was then DRAMATICALLY LOWERED"..."They won't listen to the HARD FACTS"....

2. No one is stupid enough to believe that you are here for altruistic reasons.  No one buys the 'sudden shock  ' drama-queen BS like you only just found out.  DRK price takes off and suddenly 3000 XMR drones fall from sky all shocked at the same time.  It's a bit much.  Investors aren't that stupid either.

3. The market doesn't care about the instamine because it never became an issue.  Everyone can see how much work the dev is doing and what is coming next and when.  Plus he is delivering stuff the market really wants, like instant transactions.  Investors will take all this in context.  They already are doing, as you can see on the btc/dash chart on all the major exchanges.

1. Does it matter if I sound like a news anchor? Hardly seems relevant. The dramatic lowering of block reward is scammy at best--if Evan wasn't the one who benefited most from this scenario, he would have most likely relaunched the coin. It's there, no one can wish it away, or say that no one cares--I care, and my mom tells me I'm someone. If it was an accident, cool, but then you run into the question of, "Do I want someone who has these types of accidents developing a serious coin?" I answered no, but you're free to look past warning  signs like this.

2. People can just as easily go to sdc or anon coin for all I care. Your project is the one we're discussing. I know why I chose Monero (I wan't privacy and a dev team committed to using the best approaches available), but that doesn't mean other people will have a different list--I would say if you're looking for a coin that puts the highest premium on marketing and has more room to grow than drk, go with sdc--I wouldn't hold it, but if you have a pure profit mentality, this seems a better fit than drk.

3. Popularity now doesn't equal success later and you don't know why people are really buying your coin. I know why I'm staying away from it--weak privacy features, weak trust, and there is a better coin available for my needs.

1. trying to say that at the time, no one thought it was dramatic. now DASH is the top alt after LTC, it's easy to use hindsight to say it was dramatic.  It wasn't, it was just a random coin launch on BCT with 10 others that day for people to take a break from DOGE.  You could have gone and instamined too if you had found the right coin and chosen to mine it.

2. it's just the party line that coins like DRK are 'marketing' and 'greedy' and the people are 'stupid'. but ask yourself how true is this really?  right now drk devs are slaving away developing features like first crypto you can spend without having to go and make a cup of tea while you wait.  while no less than 5 of your devs have been on this thread making multiple accusations against drk.  how much of the monero story is hype and how much is being delivered?  we have totally opposite opinions on this obviously.

3. Sure, the usual opinion. but just saying drk is insecure and weak doesn't make it so, so maybe the market is smarter than you think, each to his own anyway

1. Doesn't matter how it looked at the time (or how you want it to have looked), many coins are/were using fast/insta mine techniques to raise money followed by pump and dumps to reach maximum btc accumulation--your coin looks like this to me. Thankfully i can use my own good judgement and avoid things that look and smell scammy. Also, you dev said it was an accident, so are you saying it is not? And furthermore, I don't want to own or be part of an instamine--I don't know if you're projecting greed onto me, but you really do need to know how bad statements like this sound.

2. I don't know that your devs are slaving away--they should be finding a way out of centralized masternodes and other privacy flawed strategies--but more to the point of your comparison, not one of your devs has ever offered a valid critique of Monero's privacy features, and thankfully Monero's devs will point out flaws within another coin. This is how antifragile should work, so instead of using at as a weak argument, yopu should be thanking them for taking the time to point out flaws, that if fixed, would improve your coin.

3. This: www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zufu1/a_great_podcast_by_lets_talk_bitcoin_discussing/cpmvogy?context=3

1. Ok that's your opinion. For me I would rather all coin Devs I invest in have upto maybe 5% of the supply to incentivize them to actually do work, the same as how I don't invest in startup companies where the CEO isn't incentivized sufficiently - because it's the best way to get them to deliver.  Saying this is a negative thing is backwards to me.  No VC would touch it for a start. Obviously you have to exclude coins like 'bang' or 'boom' or whatever that are clearly P&D vehicles, just coins where you have synergy with the long term aims and pass your own due diligence.  Secondly, scam and instamine are 2 seperate things.  A dev can choose whatever they want for their coin, it's not illegal.  The scam comes in when a dev instamines and then doesn't deliver what he says he will to profit from the investors, and then dumps, that's a scam or more specifically a ponzi scheme.  That hasn't happened with DRK - instead, after 1 year, it's the top alt and just cracked instant transactions plus anonymity.  So no, I don't think the instamine is a 'scam', it's the best project I invested in because the 20 other alts I invested in, the devs either didn't develop or ran off and I had to learn a lesson lol.  DRK is still here and going strong and no one can argue they aren't busting a nut in terms of development because it's all public...

2. I don't think masternodes are centralized because I have one and it's just a wallet running in masternode mode on a shit PC.  It's just the same as a fullnode.  All the XMR accusations just show lack of knowledge.  All aspects of the crypto p2p paradigm transpose to the 2nd tier, you basically already have the aspects with BTC full node network.  You had monero devs here saying things like 'without failovers the MN network is insecure' - so even basic knowledge of how P2P network functions is aparently lacking. And saying all the nodes are on amazon so the NSA can snoop them - MN are in 30 countries with different governments, anyway.   Last, why does a DRK dev need to comment on Monero? its doing just fine.  If monero ever gets off Poloniex and shows that the real market wants it,  maybe DRK can learn something.  

3. can't listen right now but thanks i will later

1. The Monero devs, as Satoshi did before them, are mining, buying, or having funds donated to them. This is a technology being developed for the simple reason of creating an ecash as was outlined by the cypherpunks. If you don't see that as motivation enough, it explains why you've been burned by so many other projects and will probably be burned by this one. Again, sdc is a better pure profit play at the moment, and I'm sure profit minded people will figure this out. Instamine is scammy in the sense that it shows greed as the primary motive--this in my mind is scam enough. You go your way, I'll go mine.

2. 30 countries? Isn't close to 60% of mn's in two-three countries? So that's some centralization. Also, doesn't the reward scheme benefit masternodes who attack other masternodes and hold the total below a 1000? You do need to address everything in my above 3 before I'd ever consider investing in drk. Saying the marketcap is big (less than billion makes us all small by most standards) just means your market cap is bigger than Monero's--you can't glean any long term facts from that figure, see dotcom boom. My thinking is that you are playing Pets.com to Monero's Google.

3. Convenient.

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[BlockaFett]

IMO having a instamine(Where blockreward/coinsupply changes) or premine(coins mined before release) in a cryptocurrency is intolerable.. These are not companies, they're cryptocurrencies, or at least supposed to be(A lot arent acting like it). Premines/Instamines shouldnt be allowed in a "currency", a stock sure, but currency no.

Sure the currencies aren't companies, but they are designed and developed by dev teams, the good ones of which are closer to companies in how they work.  You need a leader and they need to be incentivized.  Smart money will look at everything in context and make a call, does it have value and can they deliver.  Instamine in this case is a really weak point to attack on in context and market shows that i think.  Anyway, if its not for you, your choice

[iCEBREAKER]

I don't understand how anyone could not interpret the instamine to be a scam:

1) Evan tells everyone to go to sleep, and that he "definitely" won't launch without notice.
2) He launches a couple hours later, while everyone is asleep. Linux only btw.
3) Over a million coins are mined in 8 hours.
4) Soon later the block reward is dramatically reduced to a small fraction of what it was.

The Darkscammers like their Instamine.  Combination of greed and cult brainwashing.

"It's not a 'bad' instamine, more like an immaculate conception" they say.  

Since Evan is their cult leader (The Chosen One), The Holy Instamine is first accepted, then welcomed, and finally rationalized, as his droit du seigneur.

[Joshuar]

IMO having a instamine(Where blockreward/coinsupply changes) or premine(coins mined before release) in a cryptocurrency is intolerable.. These are not companies, they're cryptocurrencies, or at least supposed to be(A lot arent acting like it). Premines/Instamines shouldnt be allowed in a "currency", a stock sure, but currency no.

Sure the currencies aren't companies, but they are designed and developed by dev teams, the good ones of which are closer to companies in how they work.  You need a leader and they need to be incentivized.  Smart money will look at everything in context and make a call, does it have value and can they deliver.  Instamine in this case is a really weak point to attack on in context and market shows that i think.  Anyway, if its not for you, your choice

Nope. I just called a friend about 10 minutes ago to ask her opinion. I stated the facts with no biasness in my voice, and she said she would not touch Dash with a 10 foot pole(She knows of Bitcoin, but not of "altcoins"), reiterating the point that a instamine that basically only benefitted those within the first 40 hours of launch is a scam.

Only to current Dash fanboys in the altcoin section, does the  instamine "not matter", because mostly everyone here is looking to make a quick buck in pumps and dumps. Out in the real world, something as scammy as that wont fly. Satoshi made Bitcoin to get away from the entire centralization/unfairness concept. Dash doing away with Satoshi's vision by having had such a dishonest instamine take place is just taking steps backward instead of forward.

[smooth]

only benefitted those within the first 40 hours of launch is a scam.

What about something that primarily benefited people within the first 8 hours (1.5 million coins) or the first one hour (570k coins)

All of that happened after the developer told everyone to come back in a few days after he did more testing and fixed bugs because he "definitely" wasn't going to launch within a few hours, a few hours before he launched.

Which means BTW given the current tally of 5,231,624, 10.8% of the current supply was mined within the first hour.

[generalizethis]

only benefitted those within the first 40 hours of launch is a scam.

What about something that primarily benefited people within the first 8 hours (1.5 million coins) or the first one hour (570k coins)

All of that happened after the developer told everyone to come back in a few days after he did more testing and fixed bugs because he "definitely" wasn't going to launch within a few hours, a few hours before he launched.

Which means BTW given the current tally of 5,231,624, 10.8% of the current supply was mined within the first hour.

 

I just lost love how Blockafett says it's like rewarding a CEO and the CEO calls it an accident, but neither calls it a reason to relaunch and set the record straight--  

[majamina]

Well it's disappointing to get up this morning and find the thread only talking about 'instamine'. I realise that DASH opponents see good reason to keep this going, but I also think it's a topic that's been done to absolute death with every possible angle having been explored on these forums.

Endless re-iteration is not a characteristic of reasonable debate. In a formal debate both sides generally have a set time to state their case on a topic, after which it would be closed and those witnessing the debate would be left to make up their minds.

Both sides have had endless opportunity to state their 'Instamine' case, so at least in this thread we should close the topic and keep things moving with fresh or unexplored aspects of DASH vs XMR.

A topic that hasn't been fully explored is Masternode security. This is very much 'up in the air', and last night I posted some numbers about the probability of tracing Darksend transactions with Masternode Blinding in place. Perhaps we could discuss that, since these numbers were so critical to the technical arguments against Masternodes/Darksend during the earlier technical debate in this thread.

[generalizethis]

Well it's disappointing to get up this morning and find the thread only talking about 'instamine'. I realise that DASH opponents see good reason to keep this going, but I also think it's a topic that's been done to absolute death with every possible angle having been explored on these forums.

Endless re-iteration is not a characteristic of reasonable debate. In a formal debate both sides generally have a set time to state their case on a topic, after which it would be closed and those witnessing the debate would be left to make up their minds.

Both sides have had endless opportunity to state their 'Instamine' case, so at least in this thread we should close the topic and keep things moving with fresh or unexplored aspects of DASH vs XMR.

A topic that hasn't been fully explored is Masternode security. This is very much 'up in the air', and last night I posted some numbers about the probability of tracing Darksend transactions with Masternode Blinding in place. Perhaps we could discuss that, since these numbers were so critical to the technical arguments against Masternodes/Darksend during the earlier technical debate in this thread.

How many masternodes would have to be in possession for anonymity to be broken with a fair degree of success? Does this number increase or decrease with nodes attacking other nodes? Does metadata collection improve the chances of breaking anonymity? To what measure? Do masternodes add any security to the network? If not, why are they present? Do ring signatures offer greater security?  

[xxxgoodgirls]

Well it's disappointing to get up this morning and find the thread only talking about 'instamine'. I realise that DASH opponents see good reason to keep this going, but I also think it's a topic that's been done to absolute death with every possible angle having been explored on these forums.

Endless re-iteration is not a characteristic of reasonable debate. In a formal debate both sides generally have a set time to state their case on a topic, after which it would be closed and those witnessing the debate would be left to make up their minds.

Both sides have had endless opportunity to state their 'Instamine' case, so at least in this thread we should close the topic and keep things moving with fresh or unexplored aspects of DASH vs XMR.

A topic that hasn't been fully explored is Masternode security. This is very much 'up in the air', and last night I posted some numbers about the probability of tracing Darksend transactions with Masternode Blinding in place. Perhaps we could discuss that, since these numbers were so critical to the technical arguments against Masternodes/Darksend during the earlier technical debate in this thread.

How many masternodes would have to be in possession for anonymity to be broken with a fair degree of success? Does this number increase or decrease with nodes attacking other nodes? Does metadata collection improve the chances of breaking anonymity? To what measure? Do masternodes add any security to the network? If not, why are they present? Do ring signatures offer greater security?  

OK, since Masternode blinding has been a major bone of contention in this thread, I did some hunting for posts about the subject.

Here's what Evan posted recently:

Probability of following Darksend through
  - 4 non-blinded rounds with 10 masternodes* is (10/2300)^4 == 3.5734577849564574e-10
  - 4 blinded rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)**4 == 1.1528508353537067e-189

Each round uses 20 random masternodes of 2300, so you must control 20 of 2300 four times in a row. It's super secure

The formula therefore gives the following probabilities with increasing numbers of compromised masternodes:

  - 3 rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)^3 == 1.9784716837512123e-142
  - 4 rounds with 1000 masternodes is ((1000/2300.0)^20)^4 == 1.1528508353537028e-29
  - 4 rounds with 2000 masternodes is ((2000/2300)^20)^4 == 1.39371e-05

[...]

And this infographic:



Even if you take the super-extreme example of comprimising 2,000 masternodes (over 85% of the network) there is still only a .00139% chance of tracing an individual transaction.

[generalizethis]

Well it's disappointing to get up this morning and find the thread only talking about 'instamine'. I realise that DASH opponents see good reason to keep this going, but I also think it's a topic that's been done to absolute death with every possible angle having been explored on these forums.

Endless re-iteration is not a characteristic of reasonable debate. In a formal debate both sides generally have a set time to state their case on a topic, after which it would be closed and those witnessing the debate would be left to make up their minds.

Both sides have had endless opportunity to state their 'Instamine' case, so at least in this thread we should close the topic and keep things moving with fresh or unexplored aspects of DASH vs XMR.

A topic that hasn't been fully explored is Masternode security. This is very much 'up in the air', and last night I posted some numbers about the probability of tracing Darksend transactions with Masternode Blinding in place. Perhaps we could discuss that, since these numbers were so critical to the technical arguments against Masternodes/Darksend during the earlier technical debate in this thread.

How many masternodes would have to be in possession for anonymity to be broken with a fair degree of success? Does this number increase or decrease with nodes attacking other nodes? Does metadata collection improve the chances of breaking anonymity? To what measure? Do masternodes add any security to the network? If not, why are they present? Do ring signatures offer greater security?  

OK, since Masternode blinding has been a major bone of contention in this thread, I did some hunting for posts about the subject.

Here's what Evan posted recently:

Probability of following Darksend through
  - 4 non-blinded rounds with 10 masternodes* is (10/2300)^4 == 3.5734577849564574e-10
  - 4 blinded rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)**4 == 1.1528508353537067e-189

Each round uses 20 random masternodes of 2300, so you must control 20 of 2300 four times in a row. It's super secure

The formula therefore gives the following probabilities with increasing numbers of compromised masternodes:

  - 3 rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)^3 == 1.9784716837512123e-142
  - 4 rounds with 1000 masternodes is ((1000/2300.0)^20)^4 == 1.1528508353537028e-29
  - 4 rounds with 2000 masternodes is ((2000/2300)^20)^4 == 1.39371e-05

[...]

And this infographic:



Even if you take the super-extreme example of comprimising 2,000 masternodes (over 85% of the network) there is still only a .00139% chance of tracing an individual transaction.

Nice infographic, but doesn't answer all (or even most) of my questions.

[majamina]

How many masternodes would have to be in possession for anonymity to be broken with a fair degree of success?

Here are my numbers from last night. Apologies, I should have included them again for easy reference:

Probability of following Darksend through
  - 4 non-blinded rounds with 10 masternodes* is (10/2300)^4 == 3.5734577849564574e-10
  - 4 blinded rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)**4 == 1.1528508353537067e-189

Each round uses 20 random masternodes of 2300, so you must control 20 of 2300 four times in a row. It's super secure


The formula therefore gives the following probabilities with increasing numbers of compromised masternodes:

  - 3 rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)^3 == 1.9784716837512123e-142
  - 4 rounds with 1000 masternodes is ((1000/2300.0)^20)^4 == 1.1528508353537028e-29
  - 4 rounds with 2000 masternodes is ((2000/2300)^20)^4 == 1.39371e-05

 Does this number increase or decrease with nodes attacking other nodes?

It increases as expected, I might plot a graph to show the curve....standby for that.

Does metadata collection improve the chances of breaking anonymity? To what measure?

Not sure, don't think so but I will look into this. What exactly did you have in mind?

Do masternodes add any security to the network? If not, why are they present?

They perform services, such as off-chain mixing and instant transactions. With regards to security, they increase the attack surface certainly and we are exploring whether that is negligible.

Do ring signatures offer greater security?  

I think they provide greater anonymity, i.e. the crypto is unbreakable today, and if it were broken later I believe the on-chain transactions are obfuscated in such a way that they still couldn't be traced. Darksend takes a different approach, which critics say is less elegant. I guess it comes down to real-world utility and whether any security issues are negligible.

[illodin]

he had a habit of making unprofessional tweets and posts using the official accounts and got a lot of shit from the community. Speaking before thinking. Not suitable for handling PR, and I guess that's where the friction between them started (could be obviously something else, but that's how it looked to me).

What does "unprofessional" mean?

Considering technical critique is in the toxic DARSH community unwelcome and met with cries of 'FUD' and 'Quick, attack-the-attacker' we can't trust your judgement on or characterization of the tweets and posts.

Primary sources, please!

I don't GAS about DARSH, but the drama over there is priceless.  Not since the Paycoiners at Hashtalk has there been a crowd more enthusiastic about and participating in growing their scam sufficient to get-rich-quick.

He was talking about selling coins and was fudding some other coin for example in the official twitter. Both of those are simply unacceptable, as the community here will nitpick and go to extraordinary lengths when drawing conclusions, as you might have noticed that DRK/DASH is the main target when criticizing actual and made up issues. 

[generalizethis]

As far as metadata is concerned, I'm assuming many mn's will not be using best practices and will leak information unbeknownst to the operator, which could set-up scenarios where they are surreptitiously being observed?

I don't think anyone would argue with cryptonote coins offering the best anonymity set at the moment, the question becomes,"is dark's as advertised or good enough?" The as advertised is a hard sell given the already well discussed insta/accidental mine and the re-names that look like the "under new management" sign at the local dive.

As an investor, you would have to prove to me that your numbers are correct, that indeed your management was forthright and had the investor's best interest in mind with every decision, and that you are offering the best product for the service desired. If you want to act like a company, this is what would be expected by most rational investors.

[majamina]

OK I plotted the curve: (edit: this is for 4 rounds of darksend)




Here are the numbers of nodes behind the graph - sorry, Excel only renders percentages to 30 decimal places so I'll do 2 tables, one with percentages and one with numbers.

1.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
2.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
3.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
4.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
5.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
6.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
7.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
8.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
9.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
10.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
11.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
12.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
13.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
14.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
15.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
16.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
17.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
18.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
19.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
20.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
21.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
22.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
23.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
24.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
25.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
26.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
27.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
28.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
29.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
30.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
31.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
32.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
33.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
34.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
35.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
36.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
37.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
38.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
39.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
40.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000001%
41.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000011%
42.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000072%
43.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000476%
44.00%   0.000000000000000000000000002994%
45.00%   0.000000000000000000000000018072%
46.00%   0.000000000000000000000000104864%
47.00%   0.000000000000000000000000585907%
48.00%   0.000000000000000000000003157177%
49.00%   0.000000000000000000000016431848%
50.00%   0.000000000000000000000082718061%
51.00%   0.000000000000000000000403286875%
52.00%   0.000000000000000000001906634691%
53.00%   0.000000000000000000008751239469%
54.00%   0.000000000000000000039039188890%
55.00%   0.000000000000000000169439694425%
56.00%   0.000000000000000000716212935450%
57.00%   0.000000000000000002951130766537%
58.00%   0.000000000000000011864228024849%
59.00%   0.000000000000000046575865222660%
60.00%   0.000000000000000178689910246017%
61.00%   0.000000000000000670481502485578%
62.00%   0.000000000000002462267086575060%
63.00%   0.000000000000008856129455897360%
64.00%   0.000000000000031217485503159900%
65.00%   0.000000000000107911699285832000%
66.00%   0.000000000000366028450492200000%
67.00%   0.000000000001218945296953730000%
68.00%   0.000000000003987613122381620000%
69.00%   0.000000000012821158200314400000%
70.00%   0.000000000040536215597144200000%
71.00%   0.000000000126086299122345000000%
72.00%   0.000000000386011029987512000000%
73.00%   0.000000001163667244198870000000%
74.00%   0.000000003455712297483980000000%
75.00%   0.000000010113490511326700000000%
76.00%   0.000000029180140755877400000000%
77.00%   0.000000083034392727673100000000%
78.00%   0.000000233113924181152000000000%
79.00%   0.000000645903002286135000000000%
80.00%   0.000001766847064778400000000000%
81.00%   0.000004773110738113080000000000%
82.00%   0.000012738203734425700000000000%
83.00%   0.000033592891719906800000000000%
84.00%   0.000087567486675137000000000000%
85.00%   0.000225690904542536000000000000%
86.00%   0.000575275792642648000000000000%
87.00%   0.001450575070699360000000000000%
88.00%   0.003619209906631740000000000000%
89.00%   0.008937180547945420000000000000%
90.00%   0.021847450052839300000000000000%
91.00%   0.052882427867883300000000000000%
92.00%   0.126772830665687000000000000000%
93.00%   0.301048095645893000000000000000%
94.00%   0.708318015672206000000000000000%
95.00%   1.651537438501360000000000000000%
96.00%   3.816793317353630000000000000000%
97.00%   8.744575691882720000000000000000%
98.00%   19.864885008204100000000000000000%
99.00%   44.752321376381000000000000000000%
100.00%   100.000000000000000000000000000000%


1.00%   1E-160
2.00%   1.2089E-136
3.00%   1.4781E-122
4.00%   1.4615E-112
5.00%   8.2718E-105
6.00%   1.7869E-98
7.00%   4.05362E-93
8.00%   1.76685E-88
9.00%   2.18475E-84
10.00%   1E-80
11.00%   2.0484E-77
12.00%   2.16023E-74
13.00%   1.30457E-71
14.00%   4.90053E-69
15.00%   1.22265E-66
16.00%   2.13599E-64
17.00%   2.72844E-62
18.00%   2.64119E-60
19.00%   1.99659E-58
20.00%   1.20893E-56
21.00%   5.99161E-55
22.00%   2.47636E-53
23.00%   8.67415E-52
24.00%   2.61156E-50
25.00%   6.84228E-49
26.00%   1.57713E-47
27.00%   3.22925E-46
28.00%   5.92437E-45
29.00%   9.81386E-44
30.00%   1.47809E-42
31.00%   2.03674E-41
32.00%   2.58225E-40
33.00%   3.02772E-39
34.00%   3.29848E-38
35.00%   3.35308E-37
36.00%   3.19301E-36
37.00%   2.8585E-35
38.00%   2.41372E-34
39.00%   1.92827E-33
40.00%   1.4615E-32
41.00%   1.05368E-31
42.00%   7.24341E-31
43.00%   4.75857E-30
44.00%   2.99374E-29
45.00%   1.80718E-28
46.00%   1.04864E-27
47.00%   5.85907E-27
48.00%   3.15718E-26
49.00%   1.64318E-25
50.00%   8.27181E-25
51.00%   4.03287E-24
52.00%   1.90663E-23
53.00%   8.75124E-23
54.00%   3.90392E-22
55.00%   1.6944E-21
56.00%   7.16213E-21
57.00%   2.95113E-20
58.00%   1.18642E-19
59.00%   4.65759E-19
60.00%   1.7869E-18
61.00%   6.70482E-18
62.00%   2.46227E-17
63.00%   8.85613E-17
64.00%   3.12175E-16
65.00%   1.07912E-15
66.00%   3.66028E-15
67.00%   1.21895E-14
68.00%   3.98761E-14
69.00%   1.28212E-13
70.00%   4.05362E-13
71.00%   1.26086E-12
72.00%   3.86011E-12
73.00%   1.16367E-11
74.00%   3.45571E-11
75.00%   1.01135E-10
76.00%   2.91801E-10
77.00%   8.30344E-10
78.00%   2.33114E-09
79.00%   6.45903E-09
80.00%   1.76685E-08
81.00%   4.77311E-08
82.00%   1.27382E-07
83.00%   3.35929E-07
84.00%   8.75675E-07
85.00%   2.25691E-06
86.00%   5.75276E-06
87.00%   1.45058E-05
88.00%   3.61921E-05
89.00%   8.93718E-05
90.00%   0.000218475
91.00%   0.000528824
92.00%   0.001267728
93.00%   0.003010481
94.00%   0.00708318
95.00%   0.016515374
96.00%   0.038167933
97.00%   0.087445757
98.00%   0.19864885
99.00%   0.447523214
100.00%   1

[generalizethis]

OK I plotted the curve:




Here are the numbers of nodes behind the graph - sorry, Excel only renders percentages to 30 decimal places so I'll do 2 tables, one with percentages and one with numbers.

1.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
2.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
3.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
4.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
5.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
6.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
7.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
8.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
9.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
10.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
11.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
12.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
13.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
14.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
15.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
16.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
17.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
18.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
19.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
20.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
21.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
22.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
23.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
24.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
25.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
26.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
27.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
28.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
29.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
30.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
31.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
32.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
33.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
34.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
35.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
36.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
37.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
38.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
39.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000000%
40.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000001%
41.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000011%
42.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000072%
43.00%   0.000000000000000000000000000476%
44.00%   0.000000000000000000000000002994%
45.00%   0.000000000000000000000000018072%
46.00%   0.000000000000000000000000104864%
47.00%   0.000000000000000000000000585907%
48.00%   0.000000000000000000000003157177%
49.00%   0.000000000000000000000016431848%
50.00%   0.000000000000000000000082718061%
51.00%   0.000000000000000000000403286875%
52.00%   0.000000000000000000001906634691%
53.00%   0.000000000000000000008751239469%
54.00%   0.000000000000000000039039188890%
55.00%   0.000000000000000000169439694425%
56.00%   0.000000000000000000716212935450%
57.00%   0.000000000000000002951130766537%
58.00%   0.000000000000000011864228024849%
59.00%   0.000000000000000046575865222660%
60.00%   0.000000000000000178689910246017%
61.00%   0.000000000000000670481502485578%
62.00%   0.000000000000002462267086575060%
63.00%   0.000000000000008856129455897360%
64.00%   0.000000000000031217485503159900%
65.00%   0.000000000000107911699285832000%
66.00%   0.000000000000366028450492200000%
67.00%   0.000000000001218945296953730000%
68.00%   0.000000000003987613122381620000%
69.00%   0.000000000012821158200314400000%
70.00%   0.000000000040536215597144200000%
71.00%   0.000000000126086299122345000000%
72.00%   0.000000000386011029987512000000%
73.00%   0.000000001163667244198870000000%
74.00%   0.000000003455712297483980000000%
75.00%   0.000000010113490511326700000000%
76.00%   0.000000029180140755877400000000%
77.00%   0.000000083034392727673100000000%
78.00%   0.000000233113924181152000000000%
79.00%   0.000000645903002286135000000000%
80.00%   0.000001766847064778400000000000%
81.00%   0.000004773110738113080000000000%
82.00%   0.000012738203734425700000000000%
83.00%   0.000033592891719906800000000000%
84.00%   0.000087567486675137000000000000%
85.00%   0.000225690904542536000000000000%
86.00%   0.000575275792642648000000000000%
87.00%   0.001450575070699360000000000000%
88.00%   0.003619209906631740000000000000%
89.00%   0.008937180547945420000000000000%
90.00%   0.021847450052839300000000000000%
91.00%   0.052882427867883300000000000000%
92.00%   0.126772830665687000000000000000%
93.00%   0.301048095645893000000000000000%
94.00%   0.708318015672206000000000000000%
95.00%   1.651537438501360000000000000000%
96.00%   3.816793317353630000000000000000%
97.00%   8.744575691882720000000000000000%
98.00%   19.864885008204100000000000000000%
99.00%   44.752321376381000000000000000000%
100.00%   100.000000000000000000000000000000%


1.00%   1E-160
2.00%   1.2089E-136
3.00%   1.4781E-122
4.00%   1.4615E-112
5.00%   8.2718E-105
6.00%   1.7869E-98
7.00%   4.05362E-93
8.00%   1.76685E-88
9.00%   2.18475E-84
10.00%   1E-80
11.00%   2.0484E-77
12.00%   2.16023E-74
13.00%   1.30457E-71
14.00%   4.90053E-69
15.00%   1.22265E-66
16.00%   2.13599E-64
17.00%   2.72844E-62
18.00%   2.64119E-60
19.00%   1.99659E-58
20.00%   1.20893E-56
21.00%   5.99161E-55
22.00%   2.47636E-53
23.00%   8.67415E-52
24.00%   2.61156E-50
25.00%   6.84228E-49
26.00%   1.57713E-47
27.00%   3.22925E-46
28.00%   5.92437E-45
29.00%   9.81386E-44
30.00%   1.47809E-42
31.00%   2.03674E-41
32.00%   2.58225E-40
33.00%   3.02772E-39
34.00%   3.29848E-38
35.00%   3.35308E-37
36.00%   3.19301E-36
37.00%   2.8585E-35
38.00%   2.41372E-34
39.00%   1.92827E-33
40.00%   1.4615E-32
41.00%   1.05368E-31
42.00%   7.24341E-31
43.00%   4.75857E-30
44.00%   2.99374E-29
45.00%   1.80718E-28
46.00%   1.04864E-27
47.00%   5.85907E-27
48.00%   3.15718E-26
49.00%   1.64318E-25
50.00%   8.27181E-25
51.00%   4.03287E-24
52.00%   1.90663E-23
53.00%   8.75124E-23
54.00%   3.90392E-22
55.00%   1.6944E-21
56.00%   7.16213E-21
57.00%   2.95113E-20
58.00%   1.18642E-19
59.00%   4.65759E-19
60.00%   1.7869E-18
61.00%   6.70482E-18
62.00%   2.46227E-17
63.00%   8.85613E-17
64.00%   3.12175E-16
65.00%   1.07912E-15
66.00%   3.66028E-15
67.00%   1.21895E-14
68.00%   3.98761E-14
69.00%   1.28212E-13
70.00%   4.05362E-13
71.00%   1.26086E-12
72.00%   3.86011E-12
73.00%   1.16367E-11
74.00%   3.45571E-11
75.00%   1.01135E-10
76.00%   2.91801E-10
77.00%   8.30344E-10
78.00%   2.33114E-09
79.00%   6.45903E-09
80.00%   1.76685E-08
81.00%   4.77311E-08
82.00%   1.27382E-07
83.00%   3.35929E-07
84.00%   8.75675E-07
85.00%   2.25691E-06
86.00%   5.75276E-06
87.00%   1.45058E-05
88.00%   3.61921E-05
89.00%   8.93718E-05
90.00%   0.000218475
91.00%   0.000528824
92.00%   0.001267728
93.00%   0.003010481
94.00%   0.00708318
95.00%   0.016515374
96.00%   0.038167933
97.00%   0.087445757
98.00%   0.19864885
99.00%   0.447523214
100.00%   1

I think you'll understand my distrust of figures and graphs coming from Evan, or based from his initial calculations, so I'll wait for a trusted source to verify.

[majamina]

As far as metadata is concerned, I'm assuming many mn's will not be using best practices and will leak information unbeknownst to the operator, which could set-up scenarios where they are surreptitiously being observed?

well we covered all that earlier....for the sake of argument, let's go binary and say a masternode is either compromised or it isn't, then consider the numbers in the table. You need to compromise 100% of the network to reliably trace all transactions. This is obviously the most extreme case. A more useful question would be 'where do things start to get interesting'. Well, if we had 1 billion transactions per day, you'd need about 75% of the network compromised to trace just one of those transactions each day. Make of that what you will.

I don't think anyone would argue with cryptonote coins offering the best anonymity set at the moment, the question becomes,"is dark's as advertised or good enough?" The as advertised is a hard sell given the already well discussed insta/accidental mine and the re-names that look like the "under new management" sign at the local dive.

Yep fair enough, as I said I think we've covered the instamine topic

As an investor, you would have to prove to me that your numbers are correct that indeed your management was forthright and had the investor's best interest in mind with every decision, and that you are offering the best product for the service desired. If you want to act like a company, this is what would be expected by most rational investors.

OK well if that's your criteria for investment then fair enough. I disagree with your statement about 'rational investors' though....I know many professional investors, with varied styles and varying attitudes to risk. It's not a one-size-fits-all game, and you can peddle the 'DRK is crooked' argument until you're blue in the face but people are still investing in it. People invest in Enron and Haliburton.

Call DRK a scam, a cult, whatever...the market does not lie.

[majamina]

I think you'll understand my distrust of figures and graphs coming from Evan, or based from his initial calculations, so I'll wait for a trusted source to verify.

Sure I can understand that. The code will be open-source so we can look forward to a healthy dissection

In the meantime there's no harm in debating the figures....let's assume they're true, for the sake of argument. What then?

[generalizethis]

I think you'll understand my distrust of figures and graphs coming from Evan, or based from his initial calculations, so I'll wait for a trusted source to verify.

Sure I can understand that. The code will be open-source so we can look forward to a healthy dissection

In the meantime there's no harm in debating the figures....let's assume they're true, for the sake of argument. What then?

That's the thing, I won't.

[Mrpumperitis]

Nice graph but with CRAVE using adrenaline , drk masternodes , dual key stealth addresses and much much more , things look very intresting. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=997356.0

[majamina]

I think you'll understand my distrust of figures and graphs coming from Evan, or based from his initial calculations, so I'll wait for a trusted source to verify.

Sure I can understand that. The code will be open-source so we can look forward to a healthy dissection

In the meantime there's no harm in debating the figures....let's assume they're true, for the sake of argument. What then?

That's the thing, I won't.

Which I would call a giant cop-out