XMR vs DRK

[illodin]

Let's say I ran a masternode right now and posted real time transaction data on a web site. I could put ads or trackers on the web page and generate revenue, like a chain explorer. Even if the data by itself wasn't that useful, people might still be curious about it, so I'd get traffic. (Of course I could promote on twitter, post links to interesting transactions, etc.)

Cool idea. I'll start my own website that posts fake live feed from a fake masternode. 

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[smooth]

Let's say I ran a masternode right now and posted real time transaction data on a web site. I could put ads or trackers on the web page and generate revenue, like a chain explorer. Even if the data by itself wasn't that useful, people might still be curious about it, so I'd get traffic. (Of course I could promote on twitter, post links to interesting transactions, etc.)

Cool idea. I'll start my own website that posts fake live feed from a fake masternode.  

Easy to identify the fake when I send a request to it and it shows up incorrect or not at all.

Even passively I think its going to be hard for you to ensure that your fake data is always consistent with he blockchain, but it might be possible.

[wickedindabed]

Isn't the masternode scheme a more decentralized approach than ring signatures? My point being: If someone finds a way or backdoor to 'break' the ring signatures, pretty much all transactions becomes unlocked(thus centralized to the concept). While in the case of masternodes, you'd have to gain control over the entire network?

Am I completely out in the blue?

[fluffypony]

Isn't the masternode scheme a more decentralized approach than ring signatures? My point being: If someone finds a way or backdoor to 'break' the ring signatures, pretty much all transactions becomes unlocked(thus centralized to the concept). While in the case of masternodes, you'd have to gain control over the entire network?

Am I completely out in the blue?

Ring signatures in Monero rely on the security properties of Curve25519. The signature algorithm uses a specific EdDSA implementation, that is based on the Twisted Edwards ed25519 curve. The long and the short of this is that there are no known or theorised or suggested ed25519 attacks that is any better than just brute-forcing a 128-bit cipher. There's an excellent Microsoft Research publication that backs this up: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=209303

It's also worth noting that Curve25519's security properties are well known and well used. If you can crack Monero's ring signatures you can also crack the entire Tor network, crack SSH access to servers, crack all i2p routing, crack TextSecure messages, crack Cryptocat messages, and crack every iCloud Backup key, HomeKit, and AirPlay connections.

Even if that did happen and overnight Tor, i2p, SSH, and Apple were all broken, all you would be able to do is determine which ring signature is the real one. You still wouldn't be able to know where the outputs of a transaction were going, because that is computed using a dual-key stealth address (simplified: padded with random data and then hashed).

[Joshuar]

Darkcoin(now renamed Dash)'s masternodes will always be centralized. They rely on trust, you must trust someone to set up those masternodes so you can receive the coinjoin "anonymity" provided by Dash. All masterndoes are also online(With their IP's in the open) and most are hosted on centralized servers such as Amazon, this makes Dash's entire concept of Masternodes a centralized one, going against the decentralization that was Satoshi's vision. Masternodes also cannot be compared to mining, they are just basically PoS wallets that get coins for mixing transactions(Not nearly as much work as the miners do), so it's useless centralization. It makes no sense as you can just use Bitcoin's coinjoin/mixers for that, but 99% of altcoins(Excluding Monero) like Dash are just pump/dump scam schemes anyway.

[Macno]

Darkcoin(now renamed Dash)'s masternodes will always be centralized. They rely on trust, you must trust someone to set up those masternodes so you can receive the coinjoin "anonymity" provided by Dash. All masterndoes are also online(With their IP's in the open) and most are hosted on centralized servers such as Amazon, this makes Dash's entire concept of Masternodes a centralized one, going against the decentralization that was Satoshi's vision. Masternodes also cannot be compared to mining, they are just basically PoS wallets that get coins for mixing transactions(Not nearly as much work as the miners do), so it's useless centralization. It makes no sense as you can just use Bitcoin's coinjoin/mixers for that, but 99% of altcoins(Excluding Monero) like Dash are just pump/dump scam schemes anyway.

If the 2400+ MNs are centralized, what is the central?

[majamina]

Interesting discussion. Thanks for the responses.

No problem, yes it has been interesting. Of particular interest:

- XMR dev's core argument against Darksend turned out to be false

- XMR dev's core argument against Masternode network security can't be quantified or reliably demonstrated

[majamina]

Darkcoin(now renamed Dash)'s masternodes will always be centralized. They rely on trust, you must trust someone to set up those masternodes so you can receive the coinjoin "anonymity" provided by Dash.

like you have to 'trust' someone to set up a miner, or a bitcoin full node, or a bitcoin mixing service?

All masterndoes are also online(With their IP's in the open) and most are hosted on centralized servers such as Amazon, this makes Dash's entire concept of Masternodes a centralized one, going against the decentralization that was Satoshi's vision.

Doesn't 5 mining pools controlling 60% of the BTC network pretty much fuck with Satoshi's vision?

Masternodes also cannot be compared to mining, they are just basically PoS wallets that get coins for mixing transactions(Not nearly as much work as the miners do), so it's useless centralization. It makes no sense as you can just use Bitcoin's coinjoin/mixers for that, but 99% of altcoins(Excluding Monero) like Dash are just pump/dump scam schemes anyway.

So with DRK you can use it just the same as BTC, traditional PoW, but you can also use Darksend which is an improvement on Bitcoin's trusted/centralised mixers. You seem to like BTC but hate DRK, when DRK _IS BTC_ with some nice features on top.

[Shrikez]

So with DRK you can use it just the same as BTC, traditional PoW, but you can also use Darksend which is an improvement on Bitcoin's trusted/centralised mixers. You seem to like BTC but hate DRK, when DRK _IS BTC with some nice features on top.

The bolded part is where you get it wrong. A currency is much more than its technical part. Although BTC has many drawbacks which some altcoins eliminate to various degrees it has always remained true to its social contract. You can trust that it'll do what's stated on the box.

[majamina]

So with DRK you can use it just the same as BTC, traditional PoW, but you can also use Darksend which is an improvement on Bitcoin's trusted/centralised mixers. You seem to like BTC but hate DRK, when DRK _IS BTC with some nice features on top.

The bolded part is where you get it wrong. A currency is much more than its technical part. Although BTC has many drawbacks which some altcoins eliminate to various degrees it has always remained true to its social contract. You can trust that it'll do what's stated on the box.

DRK does the same things, and some other things....explain your point better....

[Joshuar]

Darkcoin(now renamed Dash)'s masternodes will always be centralized. They rely on trust, you must trust someone to set up those masternodes so you can receive the coinjoin "anonymity" provided by Dash.

like you have to 'trust' someone to set up a miner, or a bitcoin full node, or a bitcoin mixing service?

All masterndoes are also online(With their IP's in the open) and most are hosted on centralized servers such as Amazon, this makes Dash's entire concept of Masternodes a centralized one, going against the decentralization that was Satoshi's vision.

Doesn't 5 mining pools controlling 60% of the BTC network pretty much fuck with Satoshi's vision?

Masternodes also cannot be compared to mining, they are just basically PoS wallets that get coins for mixing transactions(Not nearly as much work as the miners do), so it's useless centralization. It makes no sense as you can just use Bitcoin's coinjoin/mixers for that, but 99% of altcoins(Excluding Monero) like Dash are just pump/dump scam schemes anyway.

So with DRK you can use it just the same as BTC, traditional PoW, but you can also use Darksend which is an improvement on Bitcoin's trusted/centralised mixers. You seem to like BTC but hate DRK, when DRK _IS BTC_ with some nice features on top.

That's your argument? Do bitcoin nodes function as an centralized anon scheme and "instantx" in one? Dash already has so many of it's copy features relying on external masternodes that are hosted mostly online(On centralized servers). Tell me that isn't centralized? Yea, cause it is, very much so.

Dash is nothing like Bitcoin ethically(Feature wise it's cloned from Bitcoin). First off, there was a dishonest instamine where the block reward/coin supply was cut by an incredible amount, then there's the fact that Dash is PoW/PoS. It's masternodes are PoS and get paid for doing not even half the work that miners have to do.

The only part you're right about is Dash being Bitcoin with features ontop. It's a clone that's forked from Bitcoin's code with some extra features(Same as 99.9% of other altcoins out there).

[majamina]

That's youre argument? Do bitcoin nodes function as an anon scheme and "instanx" in one? Dash already has so many of it's copy features relying on external masternodes that are hosted mostly online(On centralized servers). Tell me that isn't centralized? Yea, cause it is, very much so.

No, but bitcoin nodes do provide critical network functionality, and you can set up as many rogue ones as you like with no collateral.

Masternodes are 'centralised' on 2,400 servers on a variety of OS's in a variety of hosting scenarios across 30+ countries. Interesting definition of 'centralised' you have.

By the way, there are 2,400 masternode servers for DASH's $26m market cap, while BTC has 6,400 full nodes for a $3.5bn market cap.

Dash is nothing like Bitcoin. First off, there was a instamine where the block reward/coin supply was cut by an incredible amount, then there's the fact that Dash is PoW/PoS. It's masternodes are PoS and get paid for doing not even half the work that miners have to do.

Oh the 'instamine', this has been done to death and is very boring, but the net result appears to be that the dev 'might' have something like 300k coins. Certainly a lot less coins than Satoshi has. Anyway, please let's not go there again, it's been done to death.

The only part you're right about is Dash being Bitcoin with features ontop. It's a clone that's forked from Bitcoin's code with some extra features(Same as 99.9% of other altcoins out there).

So DASH is nothing like Bitcoin, but it is like bitcoin, is that what you're saying?

[DaveyJones]

Oh the 'instamine', this has been done to death and is very boring, but the net result appears to be that the dev 'might' have something like 300k coins. Certainly a lot less coins than Satoshi has. Anyway, please let's not go there again, it's been done to death.

And there is a reason it has been done to death... why not simply re-launch... should be easily possible the first 48h if you made an honest mistake... and the Satoshi defense is ridicolous... as far as i know the block rewards + reductions parameters never have been changed unlike DRK/Dash...

[majamina]

Oh the 'instamine', this has been done to death and is very boring, but the net result appears to be that the dev 'might' have something like 300k coins. Certainly a lot less coins than Satoshi has. Anyway, please let's not go there again, it's been done to death.

And there is a reason it has been done to death... why not simply re-launch... should be easily possible the first 48h if you made an honest mistake... and the Satoshi defense is ridicolous... as far as i know the block rewards + reductions parameters never have been changed unlike DRK/Dash...

you're doing it to death some more....i'm not getting into this, it's been done to death

[Joshuar]

That's youre argument? Do bitcoin nodes function as an anon scheme and "instanx" in one? Dash already has so many of it's copy features relying on external masternodes that are hosted mostly online(On centralized servers). Tell me that isn't centralized? Yea, cause it is, very much so.

No, but bitcoin nodes do provide critical network functionality, and you can set up as many rogue ones as you like with no collateral.

Masternodes are 'centralised' on 2,400 servers on a variety of OS's in a variety of hosting scenarios across 30+ countries. Interesting definition of 'centralised' you have.

By the way, there are 2,400 masternode servers for DASH's $26m market cap, while BTC has 6,400 full nodes for a $3.5bn market cap.

Dash is nothing like Bitcoin. First off, there was a instamine where the block reward/coin supply was cut by an incredible amount, then there's the fact that Dash is PoW/PoS. It's masternodes are PoS and get paid for doing not even half the work that miners have to do.

Oh the 'instamine', this has been done to death and is very boring, but the net result appears to be that the dev 'might' have something like 300k coins. Certainly a lot less coins than Satoshi has. Anyway, please let's not go there again, it's been done to death.

The only part you're right about is Dash being Bitcoin with features ontop. It's a clone that's forked from Bitcoin's code with some extra features(Same as 99.9% of other altcoins out there).

So DASH is nothing like Bitcoin, but it is like bitcoin, is that what you're saying?

What sense is this?



"By the way, there are 2,400 masternode servers for DASH's $26m market cap, while BTC has 6,400 full nodes for a $3.5bn market cap." - That is very centralized. Masternodes are hosted on other people's servers mostly, you saying "masternode servers" is a direct attempt to mislead. Masternodes undermine the entire point of the blockchain, where activities such as that should be on(Another reason why Coinjoin implemented in the coin is stupid), having such important activities as anonymity being provided by external nodes is just like using mixers for Bitcoins, which makes dash irrelevant.

"
Oh the 'instamine', this has been done to death and is very boring, but the net result appears to be that the dev 'might' have something like 300k coins. Certainly a lot less coins than Satoshi has. Anyway, please let's not go there again, it's been done to death." -  I don't care whats "boring" to you(You're just letting your investments talk because you bought into the dash scam, I unfortunately, previously did as well), 1million coins were instamined the first few hours of Dash's launch, and another million within the next 40 hours. You cannot compare Dash's dishonest, atrocious instamine to Satoshi honestly mining Bitcoin early on.

Those in on the Dash instamine mined over 2million coins, then had the block reward and coin supply cut by more than half, to make those coins instantly much more valuable. That's basically a scam that happened in Dash. That is in no way, shape, or form, comparable to Satoshi's honest mining of bitcoin.


Are you trolling? Or incapable of reading my comments fully? I said Dash is nothing like bitcoin, ethically, morally. I said feature wise, it's just a bitcoin clone with some extra gadgets. That's it.

[iCEBREAKER]

I would urge DRK people not to get involved in the debate here.  The idea is to try to legitamise XMR as a contender to DRK by giving the pumpers on Poloniex text they can link to to show how 'xmr is the next dash!!! when XMR takes over LTC...!'.  Any argument you make will just get drowned out by one of the 5 Monero devs trolling here and you will never get a straight answer as they just repeat the same accusations whatever you say and avoid backing anything up.

I dunno, I think the debate has been quite reasonable and I'm enjoying it.

Nothing the XMR guys have said so far convinces me that DRK is not fit-for-purpose, so I'm keeping my masternodes for now and watching the market with interest.

The debate has been reasonable, and you are a reasonable person for enjoying it.

BlockaFett OTOH, is what they call a 'cult-enforcer.'  His job is to maintain the cult's brainwashing and punish members who stray from the flock.

That's why he practices the attack-the-attacker technique perfected by Scientology, and (hypocritically) involves himself in the debate here while urging others to not do the same.

[iCEBREAKER]

Maybe not directly. But the hosting companies my be compromised (you know google was/is right?), or there may be third party channels, like the NSA has a cooperation deal with Armenia which has a deal with Bulgaria. Or the NSA trades some intel on Uyghurs to the Chinese government in exchange for cooperation with something in a data center in China the Chinese government doesn't much like anyway. The possibilities are endless.

sure, but there are lots of hosting companies in play, plus plenty of people not using hosting companies.....masternodes are running on raspberry pi for instance.

regardless, to compromise the MN network in the way you describe would require a massive international conspiracy between all governments where masternodes are hosted...sounds ridiculous to me.

Snowden is a whistleblower, not a conspiracy theorist.  Please learn to tell the difference.

The "conspiracy" is called Five Eyes.  It's been going on since the Cold War, under the name ECHELON.

Hosting companies and ISPs don't need to volunteer or even be aware of their cooperation, because their hardware and software vendors are already compromised by Equation Group type outfits.

[iCEBREAKER]

You are overstating the effect of masternode blinding. It just requires data from more masternodes to correlate transactions. There is not one masternode that knows everything but getting data from enough masternodes will still allow you to piece it together. Sort of like multiple rounds happening at once (which is one of the stated goals, since people waiting hours for their coins to be ready to spend is pretty bad).

Quantify 'more masternodes'?

How many nodes must be compromised to track Darksend transactions?

We don't know yet, but chainalysis.com and their competition (both public and private) are going to find out.   

[majamina]

What sense is this?

"By the way, there are 2,400 masternode servers for DASH's $26m market cap, while BTC has 6,400 full nodes for a $3.5bn market cap."[/i] - That is very centralized.

How is it 'very centralised'? What are you on about?

Masternodes are hosted on other people's servers mostly, you saying "masternode servers" is a direct attempt to mislead.

it honestly wasn't an attempt to mislead, but I'll change the language if you like....there are 2,400 masternode wotsits for DASH's $26m market cap.

What's this about hosting on someone else's servers? I could host thousands of BTC full nodes on someone else's servers with no collateral. What's your point?

Masternodes undermine the entire point of the blockchain, where activities such as that should be on(Another reason why Coinjoin implemented in the coin is stupid), having such important activities as anonymity being provided by external nodes is just like using mixers for Bitcoins, which makes dash irrelevant.

How do they? DASH has an intact blockchain doing all the same things that BTCs does. How is it 'undermined'...no pun intended presumably?

BTC mixers are operated by trusted third-parties on one or two servers. DASH does mixing on a network of 2,400 servers and nobody on here despite repeated attempts can demonstrate how the transactions can be traced.

Oh the 'instamine', this has been done to death and is very boring, but the net result appears to be that the dev 'might' have something like 300k coins. Certainly a lot less coins than Satoshi has. Anyway, please let's not go there again, it's been done to death."[/i] -  I don't care what's been done away with, 1million coins were instamined the first few hours of Dash's launch, and another million within the next 40 hours. You cannot compare Dash's dishonest, atrocious instamine to Satoshi honestly mining Bitcoin early on.

Those in on the Dash instamine mined over 2million coins, then had the block reward and coin supply cut by more than half, to make those coins instantly much more valuable. That's basically a scam that happened in Dash. That is in no way, shape, or form, comparable to Satoshi's honest mining of bitcoin.

It really is done to death, but for what it's worth I have considered the instamine scenario and resolved any ethical questions I had with two key points. 1) DRK was freely available for DUST for months after the launch, so anyone was free to buy/mine cheap coins for a long time.   2 ) Evan offered an airdrop to the community, but this was downvoted.

Are you trolling? Or incapable of reading my comments fully? I said Dash is nothing like bitcoin, ethically, morally. I said feature wise, it's just a bitcoin clone with some extra gadgets. That's it.

Nope not trolling. OK if you're saying that DASH is nothing like bitcoin ethically or morally, well fair enough, that's your view and you're entitled to it. I disagree, but there you go....

[BlockaFett]

I would urge DRK people not to get involved in the debate here.  The idea is to try to legitamise XMR as a contender to DRK by giving the pumpers on Poloniex text they can link to to show how 'xmr is the next dash!!! when XMR takes over LTC...!'.  Any argument you make will just get drowned out by one of the 5 Monero devs trolling here and you will never get a straight answer as they just repeat the same accusations whatever you say and avoid backing anything up.

I dunno, I think the debate has been quite reasonable and I'm enjoying it.

Nothing the XMR guys have said so far convinces me that DRK is not fit-for-purpose, so I'm keeping my masternodes for now and watching the market with interest.

The debate has been reasonable, and you are a reasonable person for enjoying it.

BlockaFett OTOH, is what they call a 'cult-enforcer.'  His job is to maintain the cult's brainwashing and punish members who stray from the flock.

That's why he practices the attack-the-attacker technique perfected by Scientology, and (hypocritically) involves himself in the debate here while urging others to not do the same.

LOL I sound like a Bond villain.   I am just an investor in DRK community I hardly know anyone there.

All I did was try to respond to a massive FUD Jihad coming from XMR to DRK..this whole thread is but a mere echelon of that operation.

And in the process find some facts about XMR that go against the monk-like claims of the developers and decide to point them out.

Perhaps if XMR devs stopped yapping all day and actually built some unique features that the market wants, it wouldn't need a pump team on Polo and a troll 'Dev' team on BCT just to get in the top 20.  

Then you wouldn't be so butthurt and have to fill my screen with your nutty posts all day.  just sayin...

(BTW I may be wrong about the intentions of the XMR devs, but with how much time they spend 'pointing out' problems in a competitor 5 times their size all day, rather than, ya know, develop, it looks scammy like to me)