XMR vs DRK

[Anon136]

Just to be transparent:

I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.

lol bitcointalk staff invested in dark?

[alz]

Is it impossible to discuss this without devolving into the gutter? Damn people I did not think that I would be hitting the delete button 8 times in 3 pages. Be civil please.

Agreed ,


Im out got better things to do tonight.

my first post contains my take on the problems with XMR compared to the strengths of DRK

[iCEBREAKER]

Just to be transparent:

I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.

Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.

As I warned you, the Darkheads don't want too see an open, moderated, intelligent, and honest XMR VS DRK debate, so they reported it.

[fluffypony]

The way I see it there is no completely perfect solution to the problem of how to handle decentralised trustless value transfer systems.

Nobody's claiming they have a perfect system.

On one hand you have XMR and all the other countless cryptonote clone coins which while an interesting experiment into anonymity have proven over the last year or so to be unworkable as mass adoption value transfer systems.

By "countless" you mean 23, most of which have been abandoned?

the main stumbling blocks of the Cryptonote clones is is the blockchain bloat that completely rules out mass adoption. if XMR had BTC levels of usage the blockchain bloat would render it unusable overnight.

How many BTC users do you know that run a full node? Do *you* run a full node? No, you use Electrum or BreadWallet or Blockchain.info. Why would Monero be any different? Why would it be "unusable overnight" for all of the MyMonero.com users?

The second problem is that the ring signatures are exploitable under certain circumstances so the likelihood of serious development taking place to find a solution to the bloat issue is severely reduced.

Ring signatures are not "exploitable" on any level under the random oracle model. Given the level we're having this conversation on it's clear you aren't knowledgeable enough about cryptography to grok this, but I'll say it anyway: Monero has proof that the ring signatures are impossible to double-spend, are exculpable (ie. funds cannot be stolen by other members of a particular ring, including the "real" signatory), are unforgeable (cannot be faked), and are anonymous. Since you've made the accusation I won't take on the role of the common Darkcoin cultist and say "put up or shut up!", I'll instead show you what burden of proof means (and this is literally taken straight from the whitepaper) -

Proof of double-spend protection:



Proof of exculpability:



Proof of unforgeability:



Proof of anonymity:



The burden of proof is on Monero, and there is the proof. Now do the same for Darkcoin, please.

Why would any professional developer spend the required time to fix the bloat issue if there are other fundamental issues regarding the anonymity provided by the ring signature system?

Fixing the bloat "problem" isn't on our agenda right now. We can achieve linear reductions in blockchain size through various schemes, but none of them make a particularly large impact. If anything we will implement a lightweight wallet that uses a bloom-filter-like approach to tell full nodes which set of viewkeys its interested in, and then left those nodes do the heavy lifting. In fact, we can offer a lightweight pruned blockchain right now by only maintaining a limited set of blocks as well as the txoset and the key image set, which will give you a fully operational Monero node that needs less than 1/10th of the current blockchain space. That tooling is premature, though, as there are other priorities (eg. headers-first sync up) before we can focus on that.

the final nail in the coffin for mass adoption of cryptonote derived coins is the fact that merchant adoption is hampered significantly by the fact that the API is incompatible with platforms developed for BTC, this means that to implement XMR payments a whole new payment platform would have to developed and tested which a huge an potentially disastrous proposition.

Same goes for Ripple, and they seem to be doing just fine without BTC compatibility. Also you'd do well to check the Merchant Additions section of our Design and Development Goals: https://getmonero.org/design-goals/ - you'll notice something just for you.

DRK/DASH on the other hand has none of the above issues and has the huge benefit of the 2 tier masternode system which is already nearly a year old and provides Instant transactions world leading levels of anonimization and the potential to support future services.

Bitcoin already has a 2-tier system: full nodes, and SPV clients. Even better: full nodes can do anything MasterNodes do, and they can be incentivised through micropayment channels. A choice quote from that blog post is: "If we’re going to have a free market for services between nodes on the Bitcoin P2P network, we need a mechanism via which the nodes can pay each other. This mechanism exists in Bitcoin now, and it’s called micropayment channels. Any two nodes can connect and they have this mechanism via which, if they can agree on who owes what to whom, they can construct a payment and they can adjust that payment as rapidly as they need to and settle it infrequently on the Bitcoin block chain."

It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.

here is an over view of the utterly unique revolutionary DRK value transfer system.

It's easy to bander the term "unique" around until you sit down and think about it:

- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."

- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".

- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.

[vokain]

Aren't most of Darkcoin's MasterNodes running on Amazon servers?

http://www.zdnet.com/article/amazon-dot-com-the-tech-master-of-secrecy/

[Joshuar]

The way I see it there is no completely perfect solution to the problem of how to handle decentralised trustless value transfer systems.

Nobody's claiming they have a perfect system.

On one hand you have XMR and all the other countless cryptonote clone coins which while an interesting experiment into anonymity have proven over the last year or so to be unworkable as mass adoption value transfer systems.

By "countless" you mean 23, most of which have been abandoned?

the main stumbling blocks of the Cryptonote clones is is the blockchain bloat that completely rules out mass adoption. if XMR had BTC levels of usage the blockchain bloat would render it unusable overnight.

How many BTC users do you know that run a full node? Do *you* run a full node? No, you use Electrum or BreadWallet or Blockchain.info. Why would Monero be any different? Why would it be "unusable overnight" for all of the MyMonero.com users?

The second problem is that the ring signatures are exploitable under certain circumstances so the likelihood of serious development taking place to find a solution to the bloat issue is severely reduced.

Ring signatures are not "exploitable" on any level under the random oracle model. Given the level we're having this conversation on it's clear you aren't knowledgeable enough about cryptography to grok this, but I'll say it anyway: Monero has proof that the ring signatures are impossible to double-spend, are exculpable (ie. funds cannot be stolen by other members of a particular ring, including the "real" signatory), are unforgeable (cannot be faked), and are anonymous. Since you've made the accusation I won't take on the role of the common Darkcoin cultist and say "put up or shut up!", I'll instead show you what burden of proof means (and this is literally taken straight from the whitepaper) -

Proof of double-spend protection:



Proof of exculpability:



Proof of unforgeability:



Proof of anonymity:



The burden of proof is on Monero, and there is the proof. Now do the same for Darkcoin, please.

Why would any professional developer spend the required time to fix the bloat issue if there are other fundamental issues regarding the anonymity provided by the ring signature system?

Fixing the bloat "problem" isn't on our agenda right now. We can achieve linear reductions in blockchain size through various schemes, but none of them make a particularly large impact. If anything we will implement a lightweight wallet that uses a bloom-filter-like approach to tell full nodes which set of viewkeys its interested in, and then left those nodes do the heavy lifting. In fact, we can offer a lightweight pruned blockchain right now by only maintaining a limited set of blocks as well as the txoset and the key image set, which will give you a fully operational Monero node that needs less than 1/10th of the current blockchain space. That tooling is premature, though, as there are other priorities (eg. headers-first sync up) before we can focus on that.

the final nail in the coffin for mass adoption of cryptonote derived coins is the fact that merchant adoption is hampered significantly by the fact that the API is incompatible with platforms developed for BTC, this means that to implement XMR payments a whole new payment platform would have to developed and tested which a huge an potentially disastrous proposition.

Same goes for Ripple, and they seem to be doing just fine without BTC compatibility. Also you'd do well to check the Merchant Additions section of our Design and Development Goals: https://getmonero.org/design-goals/ - you'll notice something just for you.

DRK/DASH on the other hand has none of the above issues and has the huge benefit of the 2 tier masternode system which is already nearly a year old and provides Instant transactions world leading levels of anonimization and the potential to support future services.

Bitcoin already has a 2-tier system: full nodes, and SPV clients. Even better: full nodes can do anything MasterNodes do, and they can be incentivised through micropayment channels. A choice quote from that blog post is: "If we’re going to have a free market for services between nodes on the Bitcoin P2P network, we need a mechanism via which the nodes can pay each other. This mechanism exists in Bitcoin now, and it’s called micropayment channels. Any two nodes can connect and they have this mechanism via which, if they can agree on who owes what to whom, they can construct a payment and they can adjust that payment as rapidly as they need to and settle it infrequently on the Bitcoin block chain."

It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.

here is an over view of the utterly unique revolutionary DRK value transfer system.

It's easy to bander the term "unique" around until you sit down and think about it:

- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."

- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".

- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.

All of that shows that a coin forked/cloned from Bitcoin, cannot "compete" against Bitcoin. The analogy of Bitcoin being the entire tree/roots and the coins that are forked from Bitcoin being the tree branches or leaves, how could the tree branch's(Which are pretty dispensable parts of the tree) fight against the actual tree itself? That's what is happening with coins like Dash. The illiquidity(Which stems from both the masternodes and instamine) takes out the currency aspect from Dash, the instamine takes out the credibility aspect, and the masternodes take out the decentralization aspect. All that's left is the false hype/pump & dump aspect.

[majamina]

Just to be transparent:

I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.

Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.

As I warned you, the Darkheads don't want too see an open, moderated, intelligent, and honest XMR VS DRK debate, so they reported it.

happy to debate openly, let's check the BS points in your sig:

instamine - yawn, yes we know, a bunch of coins were mined early. who gives a fuck? not anyone who's investing if you check the charts.

broken anon - not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO

ponzy/HYIP - you either don't know what these are, or are just talking shit. Demonstrate, with supporting calculations, how DRK is a HYIP/ponzi or GTFO.

broken maternodes - masternodes run rock-solid, on low-cost VPS, getting paid like fucking clockwork, providing all the services they're supposed to. Demonstrate otherwise or GTFO.

trusted 3rd parties - BS, the only trust is on miners and masternode owners. Miners are trad POW just like BTC, masternode ownership is more distributed than mining (no pools).

stolen name - BS...Dashcoin was a dead project, their dev happily sold the github to DRK so it could use the name. Whining from bagholders of a dead coin doesn't change the facts.

busfactor=1 - BS....DRK/DASH is open source, other devs are involved. Evan under a bus would hurt the coin for sure, like any coin that lost it's lead dev, but there is enough momentum and market cap for others to take over and run with the project. The code is high quality and easily understood by others - see Kristov Atlas review.

no fundamentals - BS, DRK has the strongest fundamentals of any alt hence the market cap and positive trend.

[iCEBREAKER]

[DOMINATION POST]

Wow.  I think I need a cigarette after voyeuristically watching that exquisitely deep fucking of Darkcoin.  

[smooth]

Just to be transparent:

I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.

Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.

You should appeal to the forum mods.

It was reported, most likely by a large number of DRK supporters, which is probably why it got deleted without fair consideration, but it is certainly not off topic to DRK and should not be deleted on that thread.

[Anon136]

Just to be transparent:

I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.

Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.

As I warned you, the Darkheads don't want too see an open, moderated, intelligent, and honest XMR VS DRK debate, so they reported it.

broken anon - not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO

wow gmaxwell has spoken out against your project? i had no idea. gmaxwell is a legend. link?

[smooth]

The code is high quality and easily understood by others - see Kristov Atlas review.

That's why exploits were found by an amateur coder within a few days after the code was released as open source.

Why did Atlas miss them?

[majamina]

- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."

now I may have missed something - but my understanding is that gmaxwell made these rather bitter remarks, was subsequently invited to review the Darksend code, agreed to do that once it was open source but never actually did....so these outdated remarks are based on the 'idea' of darksend rather than the actual implementation. Hardly a persuasive piece of evidence to present against the current, working anon implementation in DRK.

- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".

Your point being? DRK has working instant transactions on mainnet. Other coins off the BTC codebase don't have this...

- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.

This is not a balanced or even credible representation of the Spork feature, as you well know.

[majamina]

The code is high quality and easily understood by others - see Kristov Atlas review.

That's why exploits were found by an amateur coder within a few days after the code was released as open source.

Why did Atlas miss them?

the exploits were in masternode payment scheme weren't they? I don't think atlas reviewed that part....he was looking at the darksend code...maybe i'm wrong...

[fluffypony]

To all newbies:

This is how you know Monero is a scam - the dev's don't spend any time on developing and instead are trying to troll people to *convince* them to sell the competition and buy mooneros.

Just look at the github, once a month maybe they add a line of code or fix a word list, and they still don't have a GUI?

[ ric->bitmonero ]$ git log --since=2014-03-25 --pretty=format:"%h commited on %ad by %an"
d728639 commited on Tue Mar 24 08:50:08 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
1c49d6b commited on Tue Mar 24 08:48:43 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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fa3ff75 commited on Tue Oct 21 13:27:47 2014 -0400 by Ben Boeckel
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7c0f150 commited on Sun Aug 3 09:58:11 2014 -0400 by Thomas Winget
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e41c808 commited on Sat May 17 15:39:46 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
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5c820f9 commited on Wed May 14 11:49:05 2014 -0400 by monero-project
a03b13b commited on Tue May 13 17:55:50 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
b5b061e commited on Tue May 13 17:53:20 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
c0cf78a commited on Tue May 13 16:10:58 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
9b2d1bc commited on Mon May 12 21:30:00 2014 -0400 by monero-project
90a67a9 commited on Mon May 12 09:01:32 2014 -0400 by monero-project
26c1a85 commited on Sun May 11 14:10:24 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
5ceffa8 commited on Thu May 8 11:12:54 2014 -0400 by monero-project
d8e3a0c commited on Wed May 7 20:17:45 2014 -0400 by monero-project
ed444b7 commited on Wed May 7 17:15:43 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
b27f060 commited on Wed May 7 19:55:34 2014 -0400 by monero-project
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3cc45e9 commited on Wed May 7 11:15:45 2014 -0700 by NoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoodleDoodleNoo
9b7accb commited on Mon May 5 20:14:41 2014 -0400 by monero-project
4153316 commited on Mon May 5 19:59:21 2014 +0200 by vertoe
4baedc4 commited on Sat May 3 15:17:29 2014 -0400 by mydesktop
333f975 commited on Sat May 3 12:19:43 2014 -0400 by mydesktop
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504bddd commited on Wed Apr 30 16:42:00 2014 -0400 by monero-project
8658f20 commited on Wed Apr 30 16:41:03 2014 -0400 by monero-project
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9c70be0 commited on Wed Apr 30 13:07:00 2014 -0400 by monero-project
8e92162 commited on Wed Apr 30 13:01:32 2014 -0400 by mydesktop
56bb959 commited on Wed Apr 30 12:03:30 2014 -0400 by monero-project
cf8fe28 commited on Wed Apr 30 11:37:25 2014 -0400 by monero-project
e940386 commited on Wed Apr 30 14:39:49 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
132c364 commited on Wed Apr 30 14:36:31 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
7b582fe commited on Wed Apr 30 14:33:18 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
fcd8efd commited on Sat Apr 26 04:01:37 2014 +0400 by bitmonero-project
6ed4507 commited on Fri Apr 25 22:08:19 2014 +0400 by Henry Hartshorne
0fd82c9 commited on Sun Apr 20 00:53:40 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
6d2bcc8 commited on Fri Apr 18 18:30:17 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
147aac7 commited on Fri Apr 18 12:55:52 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
1a8f5ce commited on Fri Apr 18 01:21:40 2014 +0400 by thankful_for_today
9682a15 commited on Wed Apr 9 13:14:35 2014 +0100 by Antonio Juarez
a401a02 commited on Mon Apr 7 16:02:15 2014 +0100 by Antonio Juarez
29c2859 commited on Wed Apr 2 17:00:17 2014 +0100 by Antonio Juarez


(You'll notice that even vertoe contributed to Monero development;) )

This excludes the blockchainDB branch on tewinget's fork, the 0MQ and http-server and smart-mining branches on oranjuice's fork, the QoS branch on rfreeman's fork, and is only representative of what has made it to staging.

659 commits in the past year = ~55 commits a month, 1.8 commits a day.

[othe]

mydesktop was smooth afaik.

Thats why its missing from github search.

[othe]

- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."

now I may have missed something - but my understanding is that gmaxwell made these rather bitter remarks, was subsequently invited to review the Darksend code, agreed to do that once it was open source but never actually did....so these outdated remarks are based on the 'idea' of darksend rather than the actual implementation. Hardly a persuasive piece of evidence to present against the current, working anon implementation in DRK.

- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".

Your point being? DRK has working instant transactions on mainnet. Other coins off the BTC codebase don't have this...

- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.

This is not a balanced or even credible representation of the Spork feature, as you well know.

1) That comment is from today
2) Bitcoin HAS working micropayment channel implementations - that stuff always works on mainnet because no fork is needed; impulse.se for example specifies one (its from bitpay) and it has a bitcore addon.
3) Spork is a 1:1 copy of Bitcoins system with the possibility to rollback like dictator - thats the only difference.

[illodin]

Fixing the bloat "problem" isn't on our agenda right now. We can achieve linear reductions in blockchain size through various schemes, but none of them make a particularly large impact. If anything we will implement a lightweight wallet that uses a bloom-filter-like approach to tell full nodes which set of viewkeys its interested in, and then left those nodes do the heavy lifting. In fact, we can offer a lightweight pruned blockchain right now by only maintaining a limited set of blocks as well as the txoset and the key image set, which will give you a fully operational Monero node that needs less than 1/10th of the current blockchain space. That tooling is premature, though, as there are other priorities (eg. headers-first sync up) before we can focus on that.

How many full nodes there are currently? What is the incentive to run one? What if they are DDoS'ed?

Is the bolded part a problem for privacy?

It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.

Perhaps he thought it's better to make sybil attacks harder. It's basically free to launch as many full nodes as required.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Monero's proof:

Monero has proof that the ring signatures are impossible to double-spend, are exculpable (ie. funds cannot be stolen by other members of a particular ring, including the "real" signatory), are unforgeable (cannot be faked), and are anonymous. Since you've made the accusation I won't take on the role of the common Darkcoin cultist and say "put up or shut up!", I'll instead show you what burden of proof means (and this is literally taken straight from the whitepaper) -

Proof of double-spend protection:



Proof of exculpability:



Proof of unforgeability:



Proof of anonymity:



The burden of proof is on Monero, and there is the proof. Now do the same for Darkcoin, please.

Darkcoin's proof:

...
not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
...

[fluffypony]

Evan came up with x11 and it was absolutely revolutionary and as such has been widely used and cloned into x13 ,x15 ect

there has been no credible evidence presented that it is insecure in any way.

Chaining hashing algorithms is neither revolutionary nor clever.

When you chain hashing algorithms bad things happen: http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2015/03/security-issue-combining-bcrypt-with.html

To quote that blog: "The underlying problem is that combining cryptographic operators that weren't designed to be combined can be disastrous. Is it possible to do so safely? Yes. Is it a good idea to do it? No. This particular case is just one example where combining operations can be exceedingly dangerous. But the bottom line: never roll your own crypto. It can have fatal consequences."

So he designed something that is (unwittingly or knowingly) open to preimage attacks...and that's revolutionary?

[majamina]

1) That comment is from today

really....perhaps you can link the comments, would be interesting to see in context.

Has he actually reviewed the code though?

2) Bitcoin HAS working micropayment channel implementations - that stuff always works on mainnet because no fork is needed; impulse.se for example specifies one (its from bitpay) and it has a bitcore addon.

not the same thing really though is it, as having instant TX built natively into the coin / wallet?

3) Spork is a 1:1 copy of Bitcoins system with the possibility to rollback like dictator - thats the only difference.

so it's the same except it's different?