XMR vs DRK

[G2M]

Sure, that was a great post and I thanked you for it. It's the other technical questions I'm talking about....see my post a little way up the thread - it has the three unanswered questions.

Got it, as blinding is not in effect to date .. could you give me a rundown of what it's supposed to be like? Any links please?

I can try to simulate the effects, provided that the result is supposed to be equivalent to x or xx rounds of darksend. Just not sure what x or xx (or xxx? That would likely require something more)I should be aiming for?

Sorry, there isn't a whitepaper yet or even a detailed post about it, but it's described as using 20 random Masternodes for mixing with the process indicated in my earlier post to pass the transactions around the masternodes. Hopefully we will know more very soon, it's testing on testnet at the moment I believe.

I will ask some technical questions over at dashtalk.org if I have time tomorrow. Clarity on this subject would be of great interest to me.

Well, my first thought would be that it's going to be susceptible to the same gaming I just mentioned, as actually splitting your transaction up and sending it to multiple physical locations, or addresses only present based on physical collateral based on uptime just sounds .. well .. what would happen if one or two went offline? I mean this is a process that just took me hours.

Either way, I'm not sure specifically how it works yet so I guess I'll just wait until the implementation comes up to mainnet, so that there are plenty of easily usable tools to present the case (specifically the block explorer).

[toknormal]

It's not bad like Bitcoin, but the point of vulnerability where Dash can cross the "not fungible" threshold lies in the Masternode scheme. CryptoNote does not have this vulnerability.

It also - for that same reason - doesn't have a dual mode network that can solve a ton of problems. 'Masternodes' are not a separate network, they are the same daemon as regular wallets just running in an extended mode. They are just as decentralised (because anyone can set one up).

It's a question of homogeneous vs heterogeneous network function, not one of centralisation or decentralisation.

It was the fact that networks started to diversify in function that lead to the explosion of the internet. Client-server computing and service oriented architectures massively increased the efficiency and power of software. Darkcoin / Dash has found a way to extend this paradigm in a decentralised way - i.e. instead of distinct clients and servers, a node can operate in both modes and be reproduced as many times as you like throughout the network.

I don't agree with what DeboraMeeks posted above about Dash not being "around in 5 years" - not that nonsense about a "rickety bus". I think this architecture is solving so many problems right now that it will come to be seen as the obvious way forward for many applications.

[majamina]

i was trying to find your unanswered questions. Can u repost?

By all means, here they are:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10924115#msg10924115

[majamina]

Either way, I'm not sure specifically how it works yet so I guess I'll just wait until the implementation comes up to mainnet, so that there are plenty of easily usable tools to present the case (specifically the block explorer).

OK great, thanks....would be really interested to hear your findings.

[lyth0s]

My Dash is going to be sold over the next few days. I refuse to a cryptocurrency where the fanboys imagine that cryptography is uneccessary. What a stupid thing to say.

So you think these fanboy guys are stupid, then base your investment decisions on what they say. Seems a bit strange...

I never said they are stupid, I said that what they said was stupid.

It's like the run-up to an election, you support a candidate and you think he's not entirely stupid. In a debate just before the election his supporters make signs and go on interviews saying that they don't think the opinion of the people is important, and they fully support the presidential candidate making all the decisions. The candidate keeps quiet. Eventually former presidents come forward to point out how disconnected this thinking is from reality and how dangerously close it is to supporting a dictator.

Would you keep the faith, and just ignore what is becoming more and more apparent?

OK well whatever. I still can't understand why you'd sell your coins because someone else who has the coins says something stupid. If it was the lead dev then maybe, but some guy on a forum?

I think he brings up a good point. Fanboys are emotionally labile and if a crypto's price is being supported mainly by fanboys who don't understand the technical aspects of their cryptocurrency and why it is good or better than another currency then they must be involved in that crypto for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Price
2. Hype

If a crypto is supported by fanboys who's main concern is price and hype, what happens when price goes down or the hype fades away? All support for the coin vanishes and it goes down in the books as another pump and dump (not to even mention Dash's 'accidental' pre-mine).

If you're going to choose a privacy coin pick one with a good dev team (with no pre-mines), good community support and has people involved in it that aren't blinded by its day to day price.

I invite you all to Monero: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=753252.new#new

The choice is yours.

[Joshuar]

no offense, really bored of arguing with XMR people and reading Bitcion analogies at this stage.

You can check my post history and confirm that I have taken an interest in exactly zero altcoins. I recently started getting a little bit interested in Dash because I see Bitcoin's fungibility problems. Unfortunately Dash has the same fungibility problems no matter how much they try and hide it, and the sheer stupidity of the community members is not inspiring.

That does not mean I am interested in Monero, except maybe in the technology underlying it. I am not going to divest in Dash and invest in Monero. I am just going to divest in Dash and hold Bitcoin for the moment. Maybe in a few months or years I'll take another look at Monero, but saying that I'm "XMR people" is wrong.

ok you genuine so i will reply...

first thing is please bare in mind if you just read 1000 posts from XMR people it's like entering an alternate reality where there is this duel to the death between Dash and Monero - there isn't.

Monero was a clone rushed out after DRK along with at least 13 other CryptoNote coins, all cut and paste some code that has very dubious origins - no actual innovation themselves.

DRK rejected Cryptonote in favour of own system based on coinjoin but transposed to a 2nd tier (fullnodes that also provide services), but was closed source so the clones had to use the best tech available at the time - Cryptonote, which they all did including Monero.  (and I think DRK rejected CN because main aspect of the architecture is that if any backdoor or shortcut is found in the cryptology or implementation, your whole history can be deanonimized anytime in the future just from the blockchain - in basic architectural terms your anonimity is at much higher risk than system like DRK whereby anonymization cannot be reversed without compromising nearly all masternodes at the time of the anonymisation. in the future if a whole is found in any cryptonote implementation, bang, the whole currency dies.  In drk, if wholes are found, they can be patched as they go along which they have been whenever they were found)

What's happening now is that DRK invented Instant transactions (which evolved out of the 2-tier innovation), which is obviously a lot bigger than just an 'anon coin' so the market is taking notice - my own opinion is that all alts are essentially proof of concept, they will nevere work in the full market because no one wants to wait 1-15 minutes to pay for something, espeically at point of sale.  Solving this makes first viable alt to Bitcion because it's something that will really help crypto get out of the underground and into Guy-on-the-street's wallet.

Then DRK price rises in accordance, and suddenly wave after wave of XMR post accusing of instamine, centralization, etc comes in day after day - so does XMR look like it's in a position of strength or that it's bitter that DRK is leaving it behind in an Anon coin space, which Drk created, without a paddle?

So (coupled with the other issues I said about XMR market situation which i won't go into) this is just all smoke and mirrors by XMR to try to show some symetry to boost XMR price and keep it relevant (with non-instant transactions and 'anon coin' branding).  But it's fatal mistake because XMR needs to fight to stay relevant by *developing new features the market wants* which is not something they appear to be doing quite the opposite.

For new investors to DASH if you are on this thread it comes down to if you buy the accusations of early emission being a deliberate scam and if masternodes are centralized (which for be being there from week 2 is just fluff).

Tons of inaccuracies/lies here ugh, but I'll keep it straight forward.

I was here when Evan proposed adding Cryptonote, but quickly scrapped the idea. Wanna know why? It would have taken a hell of a lot of work implementing ring signatures and cryptonote into Darkcoin at that time. So he decided to stick to his coinjoin implementation and go with it.

Then there's "instant transactions", which as others showed was taken from Green Addresses, a system already available with Bitcoin.

And this entire marketing "2 tier" nonsense is just a PoW/PoS network, just like 999 other altcoins out there that use PoW/PoS. Masternodes are PoS, Mining is PoW. Peercoin was the first coin to implement this "2 tier" system you speak of.

Monero took over Bytecoin as being the dominant cryptocoin which uses Cryptonote, the most fungible trustless anonymity scheme on Earth.

[majamina]

I think he brings up a good point. Fanboys are emotionally labile and if a crypto's price is being supported mainly by fanboys who don't understand the technical aspects of their cryptocurrency and why it is good or better than another currency then they must be involved in that crypto for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Price
2. Hype

If a crypto is supported by fanboys who's main concern is price and hype, what happens when price goes down or the hype fades away? All support for the coin vanishes and it goes down in the books as another pump and dump (not to even mention Dash's 'accidental' pre-mine).

If you're going to choose a privacy coin pick one with a good dev team (no pre-mines), good community support and has people involved in it that aren't blinded by its day to day price.

I invite you all to Monero: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=753252.new#new

The choice is yours.

These are valid points, well presented.

I think there's something in what your saying, but ultimately it's adoption that's key, and adoption stems from from utility, promotion and network effects. A coins supporters clearly have influence here, as do their opponents (hence trolling effort ), but I'm inclined to think that the people leading a project will most influence the outcome.

[BlockaFett]

no offense, really bored of arguing with XMR people and reading Bitcion analogies at this stage.

You can check my post history and confirm that I have taken an interest in exactly zero altcoins. I recently started getting a little bit interested in Dash because I see Bitcoin's fungibility problems. Unfortunately Dash has the same fungibility problems no matter how much they try and hide it, and the sheer stupidity of the community members is not inspiring.

That does not mean I am interested in Monero, except maybe in the technology underlying it. I am not going to divest in Dash and invest in Monero. I am just going to divest in Dash and hold Bitcoin for the moment. Maybe in a few months or years I'll take another look at Monero, but saying that I'm "XMR people" is wrong.

ok you genuine so i will reply...

first thing is please bare in mind if you just read 1000 posts from XMR people it's like entering an alternate reality where there is this duel to the death between Dash and Monero - there isn't.

Monero was a clone rushed out after DRK along with at least 13 other CryptoNote coins, all cut and paste some code that has very dubious origins - no actual innovation themselves.

DRK rejected Cryptonote in favour of own system based on coinjoin but transposed to a 2nd tier (fullnodes that also provide services), but was closed source so the clones had to use the best tech available at the time - Cryptonote, which they all did including Monero.  (and I think DRK rejected CN because main aspect of the architecture is that if any backdoor or shortcut is found in the cryptology or implementation, your whole history can be deanonimized anytime in the future just from the blockchain - in basic architectural terms your anonimity is at much higher risk than system like DRK whereby anonymization cannot be reversed without compromising nearly all masternodes at the time of the anonymisation. in the future if a whole is found in any cryptonote implementation, bang, the whole currency dies.  In drk, if wholes are found, they can be patched as they go along which they have been whenever they were found)

What's happening now is that DRK invented Instant transactions (which evolved out of the 2-tier innovation), which is obviously a lot bigger than just an 'anon coin' so the market is taking notice - my own opinion is that all alts are essentially proof of concept, they will nevere work in the full market because no one wants to wait 1-15 minutes to pay for something, espeically at point of sale.  Solving this makes first viable alt to Bitcion because it's something that will really help crypto get out of the underground and into Guy-on-the-street's wallet.

Then DRK price rises in accordance, and suddenly wave after wave of XMR post accusing of instamine, centralization, etc comes in day after day - so does XMR look like it's in a position of strength or that it's bitter that DRK is leaving it behind in an Anon coin space, which Drk created, without a paddle?

So (coupled with the other issues I said about XMR market situation which i won't go into) this is just all smoke and mirrors by XMR to try to show some symetry to boost XMR price and keep it relevant (with non-instant transactions and 'anon coin' branding).  But it's fatal mistake because XMR needs to fight to stay relevant by *developing new features the market wants* which is not something they appear to be doing quite the opposite.

For new investors to DASH if you are on this thread it comes down to if you buy the accusations of early emission being a deliberate scam and if masternodes are centralized (which for be being there from week 2 is just fluff).

Tons of inaccuracies/lies here ugh, but I'll keep it straight forward.

I was here when Evan proposed adding Cryptonote, but quickly scrapped the idea. Wanna know why? It would have taken a hell of a lot of work implementing ring signatures and cryptonote into Darkcoin at that time. So he decided to stick to his coinjoin implementation and go with it.

Then there's "instant transactions", which as others showed was taken from Green Addresses, a system already available with Bitcoin.

And this entire marketing "2 tier" nonsense is just a PoW/PoS network, just like 999 other altcoins out there that use PoW/PoS. Masternodes are PoS, Mining is PoW. Peercoin was the first coin to implement this "2 tier" system you speak of.

Monero took over Bytecoin as being the dominant cryptocoin which uses Cryptonote, the most fungible trustless anonymity scheme on Earth.

dude. DASH instant transactions now take < 4 seconds.  Any other alt in the world does that?  What's the fasted Monero transaction time?

[vokain]

Re: Is Bitcoin good enough; there aren't critically important improvements needed?
December 02, 2014, 08:44:32 PM
 #64
Quote from: franky1 on December 02, 2014, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: jonald_fyookball on December 02, 2014, 08:33:28 PM
good points Franky, but to be fair to the OP, that is what the poll is asking:
would you switch to another coin?  I voted no.

i voted no too

Good riddence. You continue to post off topic nonsense. For example (and there are many more), without on chain anonymity it is impossible to have robust untraceability and unlinkability no matter what anonymity techniques you do off chain. That you don't understand this, shows you are not technically qualified to blabber (which we already proved in the thread linked from the OP), but yet you do foam at the mouth any way with lies such as "you changed the title thus you are moving closer to my position". Liar. I changed the title because I realized it was possible to achieve the same level of pool centralization we have now within the proposed anonymity paradigm. Typical ignorant politician, all you know how to do is lie and fool the constituents. You lack technical ability.

franky1 I wouldn't want an idiot like you any where near me. I am thus grateful you voted 'no'. Do I need to say it more clearly? You are a Dunning-Kruger blabber mouth dolt who lies and debates disingenuously.

The reason the dark coins have failed (if they have) is because they suck. I don't write software that sucks. We can start with the fact that they don't solve any use case (neither does Bitcoin but it did solve the delusion use case and was first). They don't make transactions faster. They have block chain bloat (Monero) or they are subject to Sybil attack on master nodes (DarkCoin).

I (as AnonyMint) have long ago stated that from a marketing perspective anonymity alone was not a sufficient use case for a crypto-currency.

What you haven't realized is that I proposed a use case that could skyrocket the demand for an anonymous coin. And it is good you failed to realize this. Carry on ignoramus. Nothing for you here.

[generalizethis]

My Dash is going to be sold over the next few days. I refuse to a cryptocurrency where the fanboys imagine that cryptography is uneccessary. What a stupid thing to say.

So you think these fanboy guys are stupid, then base your investment decisions on what they say. Seems a bit strange...

I never said they are stupid, I said that what they said was stupid.

It's like the run-up to an election, you support a candidate and you think he's not entirely stupid. In a debate just before the election his supporters make signs and go on interviews saying that they don't think the opinion of the people is important, and they fully support the presidential candidate making all the decisions. The candidate keeps quiet. Eventually former presidents come forward to point out how disconnected this thinking is from reality and how dangerously close it is to supporting a dictator.

Would you keep the faith, and just ignore what is becoming more and more apparent?

OK well whatever. I still can't understand why you'd sell your coins because someone else who has the coins says something stupid. If it was the lead dev then maybe, but some guy on a forum?

I think she brings up a good point. Fanboys are emotionally labile and if a crypto's price is being supported mainly by fanboys who don't understand the technical aspects of their cryptocurrency and why it is good or better than another currency then they must be involved in that crypto for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Price
2. Hype

If a crypto is supported by fanboys who's main concern is price and hype, what happens when price goes down or the hype fades away? All support for the coin vanishes and it goes down in the books as another pump and dump (not to even mention Dash's 'accidental' pre-mine).

If you're going to choose a privacy coin pick one with a good dev team (with no pre-mines), good community support and has people involved in it that aren't blinded by its day to day price.

I invite you all to Monero: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=753252.new#new

The choice is yours.

I'm assuming DeboraMeek's female for some reason--dunno, why....

[majamina]

It's not bad like Bitcoin, but the point of vulnerability where Dash can cross the "not fungible" threshold lies in the Masternode scheme. CryptoNote does not have this vulnerability.

sure I agree with that, but nobody has been able to show how anyone less than NSA/guv could take DASH across that line.

[DeboraMeeks]

majamina I'm going to play devil's advocate with you, so bear with me here.

No, because your transaction is easily traceable through the blockchain.

Easily? If all I want is to obfuscate I can send it to myself 1000 times through various transaction splitting and recombining, and I can send it it and out of exchanges. I can even setup a BitPay account and pay myself for fake goods. If every step in my self-mixing path has a 50/50 chance of being mine then a mix of 1000 steps plus some exchanges and BitPay is 1010 steps for example. So the chance of figuring out its me is 2 to the power of 1010. Google says that your chance of deanonymising me is 1 in 10 to the power of 304. I saw some 10 to the power of 40 numbers thrown around earlier, so are we safe in saying that Bitcoin can easily be made 7 times more private than Dash?

Well, if you get away with it, then that transaction is 'funged' yes. But 'BitcoinFog' is a trusted mixing service that could be keeping logs, reporting up to your adversary or creating some other shitstorm that you might not care to weather.

MasterNodes are also a trusted mixing service. How do you as a user prove that the MasterNodes you use not keep logs or aren't reporting to some adversary?

yes it does, that is the critical point. If you can mix the coins at will, in a trustless and sufficiently secure manner then there's your fungibility.

Security I'm less worried about, but how are MasterNodes trustless? I know, I know, there's a 1 in 10 to the power of something chance, but then why not just use Bitcoin? If you think that a 35 year old neck-beard living in his mother's basement can secure his MasterNode that is quite worrying. I never thought about it in those terms until a few hours ago. Read this and then tell me if you think that even an advanced MasterNode operator can keep it secure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)

I do respect what Evan is trying to achieve but this thread has opened my eyes. Just in the past 24 hours I have read about how British Airways got hacked and Slack got hacked for days, and Nigeria's Electoral Commission website got hacked. If powerful organisations can't secure their servers what makes you think that 2,000 MasterNode operators will be any different?

[vokain]

It's not bad like Bitcoin, but the point of vulnerability where Dash can cross the "not fungible" threshold lies in the Masternode scheme. CryptoNote does not have this vulnerability.

sure I agree with that, but nobody has been able to show how anyone less than NSA/guv could take DASH across that line.

Okay, the major point still stands, if we're going to upset TPTB's entire financial system with a protocol that allows us to opt out, you're going to want that on-chain anonymity to not have to trust anyone else to ensure your anonymity against said PTB.

[GingerAle]

i was trying to find your unanswered questions. Can u repost?

By all means, here they are:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10924115#msg10924115

thanks! This thread is too hot to actually provide responses with meat, and im in the middle of some home chores, but I know there's something important in your focus on the fact that its not coins, its addresses, inputs / outputs, etc. ... there's a podcast I need to edit that might be useful, if I get around to editing it.

[BlockaFett]

majamina I'm going to play devil's advocate with you, so bear with me here.

No, because your transaction is easily traceable through the blockchain.

Easily? If all I want is to obfuscate I can send it to myself 1000 times through various transaction splitting and recombining, and I can send it it and out of exchanges. I can even setup a BitPay account and pay myself for fake goods. If every step in my self-mixing path has a 50/50 chance of being mine then a mix of 1000 steps plus some exchanges and BitPay is 1010 steps for example. So the chance of figuring out its me is 2 to the power of 1010. Google says that your chance of deanonymising me is 1 in 10 to the power of 304. I saw some 10 to the power of 40 numbers thrown around earlier, so are we safe in saying that Bitcoin can easily be made 7 times more private than Dash?

Well, if you get away with it, then that transaction is 'funged' yes. But 'BitcoinFog' is a trusted mixing service that could be keeping logs, reporting up to your adversary or creating some other shitstorm that you might not care to weather.

MasterNodes are also a trusted mixing service. How do you as a user prove that the MasterNodes you use not keep logs or aren't reporting to some adversary?

yes it does, that is the critical point. If you can mix the coins at will, in a trustless and sufficiently secure manner then there's your fungibility.

Security I'm less worried about, but how are MasterNodes trustless? I know, I know, there's a 1 in 10 to the power of something chance, but then why not just use Bitcoin? If you think that a 35 year old neck-beard living in his mother's basement can secure his MasterNode that is quite worrying. I never thought about it in those terms until a few hours ago. Read this and then tell me if you think that even an advanced MasterNode operator can keep it secure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)

I do respect what Evan is trying to achieve but this thread has opened my eyes. Just in the past 24 hours I have read about how British Airways got hacked and Slack got hacked for days, and Nigeria's Electoral Commission website got hacked. If powerful organisations can't secure their servers what makes you think that 2,000 MasterNode operators will be any different?

If powerful organisations can't secure their servers what makes you think that 2,000 MasterNode operators will be any different?

Debora its the same as Bitcoin's fullnodes.  Masternodes are just people's wallets running with masternode=1 in the config. Plus you need 1000 coins in there to make it work so a lot easier to attack fullnodes than masternodes.  Plus taking over masternode network you couldn't actually make any $, takover BTC nodes and you can.   There is zero merit to all this crap about masternodes being 'easy to compromise' or being 'centralized', it only works if you have 20 butthurt XMR drones who try to make it true by posting it 2000 times - it's just a lie.

[vokain]

Why your privacy is essential:

I don't know if it was so dramatic, as an inherent feature of the Bitcoin protocol is its (perhaps too) transparent blockchain, and as follows...

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113207/coinbase-is-tracking-how-users-spend-their-bitcoins
"Coinbase has recently been demonstrating why consumer regulation is such a problem. The company seems to be tracking what their customers are buying with Bitcoin and closing any accounts involved in transactions that the company objects to."


http://www.coindesk.com/bonafide-raises-850k-build-reputation-system-bitcoin/
"Moyer, who started his career doing signals intelligence for the army and later for the NSA, used cash as an analogy for the way bitcoin is right now pretty much anonymous [but right now pretty much not at all].

He said:

“You know if I bring you a million dollars of cash there is something wrong. The reason is, you have no way of knowing where that money comes from [but you definitely do with Bitcoin :malicious grin:].”"

[majamina]

Easily? If all I want is to obfuscate I can send it to myself 1000 times through various transaction splitting and recombining, and I can send it it and out of exchanges. I can even setup a BitPay account and pay myself for fake goods. If every step in my self-mixing path has a 50/50 chance of being mine then a mix of 1000 steps plus some exchanges and BitPay is 1010 steps for example. So the chance of figuring out its me is 2 to the power of 1010. Google says that your chance of deanonymising me is 1 in 10 to the power of 304. I saw some 10 to the power of 40 numbers thrown around earlier, so are we safe in saying that Bitcoin can easily be made 7 times more private than Dash?

Yeah sure, if you want to do all that then go for it. BTC is your new anon coin

Or you could use DASH to do all the mixing for you while you do something else.

Security I'm less worried about, but how are MasterNodes trustless? I know, I know, there's a 1 in 10 to the power of something chance, but then why not just use Bitcoin? If you think that a 35 year old neck-beard living in his mother's basement can secure his MasterNode that is quite worrying. I never thought about it in those terms until a few hours ago. Read this and then tell me if you think that even an advanced MasterNode operator can keep it secure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)

The point is you would have to compromise loads of Masternodes to get any useful information. These are simple daemon's listening on a single TCP port, just open this up on your VPS or firewall and off you go. The daemon is forked off Bitcoin Core which is pretty well hardened, DoS resistant etc.

Go and portscan a bunch of masternodes and see what you turn up...

[majamina]

It's not bad like Bitcoin, but the point of vulnerability where Dash can cross the "not fungible" threshold lies in the Masternode scheme. CryptoNote does not have this vulnerability.

sure I agree with that, but nobody has been able to show how anyone less than NSA/guv could take DASH across that line.

Okay, the major point still stands, if we're going to upset TPTB's entire financial system with a protocol that allows us to opt out, you're going to want that on-chain anonymity to not have to trust anyone else to ensure your anonymity against said PTB.

But we already agreed, several times on this thread, that against TLA/guv adversary all bets are off.

All coins is fucked, is what we said.

At which point we get back to the still unanswered 'fit-for-purpose' argument.

Is DASH providing sufficient privacy for all sub-TLA adversaries?

If it is, and it's got loads of other great features (InstantX, BTC API compatibilty, two-factor authentication etc), then it's full of win

[Joshuar]

majamina I'm going to play devil's advocate with you, so bear with me here.

No, because your transaction is easily traceable through the blockchain.

Easily? If all I want is to obfuscate I can send it to myself 1000 times through various transaction splitting and recombining, and I can send it it and out of exchanges. I can even setup a BitPay account and pay myself for fake goods. If every step in my self-mixing path has a 50/50 chance of being mine then a mix of 1000 steps plus some exchanges and BitPay is 1010 steps for example. So the chance of figuring out its me is 2 to the power of 1010. Google says that your chance of deanonymising me is 1 in 10 to the power of 304. I saw some 10 to the power of 40 numbers thrown around earlier, so are we safe in saying that Bitcoin can easily be made 7 times more private than Dash?

Well, if you get away with it, then that transaction is 'funged' yes. But 'BitcoinFog' is a trusted mixing service that could be keeping logs, reporting up to your adversary or creating some other shitstorm that you might not care to weather.

MasterNodes are also a trusted mixing service. How do you as a user prove that the MasterNodes you use not keep logs or aren't reporting to some adversary?

yes it does, that is the critical point. If you can mix the coins at will, in a trustless and sufficiently secure manner then there's your fungibility.

Security I'm less worried about, but how are MasterNodes trustless? I know, I know, there's a 1 in 10 to the power of something chance, but then why not just use Bitcoin? If you think that a 35 year old neck-beard living in his mother's basement can secure his MasterNode that is quite worrying. I never thought about it in those terms until a few hours ago. Read this and then tell me if you think that even an advanced MasterNode operator can keep it secure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)

I do respect what Evan is trying to achieve but this thread has opened my eyes. Just in the past 24 hours I have read about how British Airways got hacked and Slack got hacked for days, and Nigeria's Electoral Commission website got hacked. If powerful organisations can't secure their servers what makes you think that 2,000 MasterNode operators will be any different?

If powerful organisations can't secure their servers what makes you think that 2,000 MasterNode operators will be any different?

Debora its the same as Bitcoin's fullnodes.  Masternodes are just people's wallets running with masternode=1 in the config. Plus you need 1000 coins in there to make it work so a lot easier to attack fullnodes than masternodes.  Plus taking over masternode network you couldn't actually make any $, takover BTC nodes and you can.   There is zero merit to all this crap about masternodes being 'easy to compromise' or being 'centralized', it only works if you have 20 butthurt XMR drones who try to make it true by posting it 2000 times - it's just a lie.

Most if not all masternodes are hosted on centralized servers, therefore making them easy to take down or get controlled by the government without the masternode owners ever knowing. It's as simple as that.

[toknormal]

Masternodes are just people's wallets running with masternode=1 in the config. Plus you need 1000 coins in there to make it work so a lot easier to attack fullnodes than masternodes.  Plus taking over masternode network you couldn't actually make any $, takover BTC nodes and you can.   There is zero merit to all this crap about masternodes being 'easy to compromise' or being 'centralized', it only works if you have 20 butthurt XMR drones who try to make it true by posting it 2000 times - it's just a lie.

+1000

Amen to that.