XMR vs DRK

[vokain]

Monero has view keys to allow transparency.

Thats the problem - not the solution.

You said, "On the other hand if your [sic] exchanging money then you want your transaction as *transparent as possible* while using a monetary medium that's as *fungible* as possible."

So what is it?

I will ignore the non sequitur and ask, "What if I *don't* want my transactions transparent to begin with?"

[1714479766]

1714479766

[1714479766]

1714479766

[1714479766]

1714479766

[1714479766]

1714479766

[1714479766]

1714479766

[1714479766]

1714479766

[othe]

Monero has view keys to allow transparency.

Thats the problem - not the solution.

Care to give your reasoning? No problems arise from Viewkeys, they provide a harmony of sorts between having anonymity and allowing transparency to those you wish.

No he can't because he's wrong as always and i've already proven it to him before, to make it short a snippet from MRL-0004.

i may quote MRL-0004:

Quote
6 Auditability for Compliance Purposes
Businesses using ring signatures and stealth addressing through Monero will have
the reasonable desire to comply with the corresponding local laws within their
jurisdictions. Typically, these laws require the business to prove ownership of their
own funds, and demonstrate where funds may have been sent. To prove ownership
of any unspent funds on the block chain, a Monero account holder may publish a
zero mix-in ring signature of their public key. Please be aware that a zero-mix-in
ring signature is just an ordinary digital signature. An auditor can then scan the
block chain for the presence of the output public key, and verify that the key image
produced from the zero mix-in ring signature has not yet been used on the block
chain. To protect the privacy of the business and its customers, the auditor should
then destroy the signature and the key image.

Thats just 1 method, another one is the viewkey for example.
There are methods to proof u made a certain payment etc - cryptography is one nice tool.


But we all know who won't understand this here.


If you take DRK for example, its an absolute nightmare for compliance, tax etc. - especially if you don't want to ruin your privacy and endanger third party users.

[dEBRUYNE]

Monero has view keys to allow transparency.

Thats the problem - not the solution.

Care to give your reasoning? No problems arise from Viewkeys, they provide a harmony of sorts between having anonymity and allowing transparency to those you wish.

As we are talking about viewkeys, I figured this graphical representation might be useful:



PS: Toknormal, if you are going to state something, please properly argument it atleast.

[BlockaFett]

Monero has view keys to allow transparency.

Thats the problem - not the solution.

Care to give your reasoning? No problems arise from Viewkeys, they provide a harmony of sorts between having anonymity and allowing transparency to those you wish.

No he can't because he's wrong as always and i've already proven it to him before, to make it short a snippet from MRL-0004.

i may quote MRL-0004:

Quote
6 Auditability for Compliance Purposes
Businesses using ring signatures and stealth addressing through Monero will have
the reasonable desire to comply with the corresponding local laws within their
jurisdictions. Typically, these laws require the business to prove ownership of their
own funds, and demonstrate where funds may have been sent. To prove ownership
of any unspent funds on the block chain, a Monero account holder may publish a
zero mix-in ring signature of their public key. Please be aware that a zero-mix-in
ring signature is just an ordinary digital signature. An auditor can then scan the
block chain for the presence of the output public key, and verify that the key image
produced from the zero mix-in ring signature has not yet been used on the block
chain. To protect the privacy of the business and its customers, the auditor should
then destroy the signature and the key image.

Thats just 1 method, another one is the viewkey for example.
There are methods to proof u made a certain payment etc - cryptography is one nice tool.


But we all know who won't understand this here.


If you take DRK for example, its an absolute nightmare for compliance, tax etc. - especially if you don't want to ruin your privacy and endanger third party users.

If you want compliance in DRK then just don't use anonymous transactions.

Just hearing about these viewkeys and a few issues I can see:

1. What if someone extorts your viewkey?  Then your past transaction anonymity is broken?  

2. your quote says 'To protect the privacy of the business and its customers, the auditor should then destroy the signature and the key image.'.  So my privacy is dependent on an auditor destroying my key how is that secure at all?

[toknormal]

It just experienced a pump. Monero's was higher than Dash's before that.

No. It was not.

Monero's market liquidity has never been anywhere near that of Dash.

Right now, according to http://coinmarketcap.com, Monero's liquidity in the $USD market is only 20% of that of Dash. In the BTC market, Monero only has 21.9% of the liquidity of Dash.

[Joshuar]

Monero has view keys to allow transparency.

Thats the problem - not the solution.

Care to give your reasoning? No problems arise from Viewkeys, they provide a harmony of sorts between having anonymity and allowing transparency to those you wish.

As we are talking about viewkeys, I figured this graphical representation might be useful:



PS: Toknormal, if you are going to state something, please properly argument it atleast.

Beautiful graphic there.

[Joshuar]

It just experienced a pump. Monero's was higher than Dash's before that.

No. It was not.

Monero's market liquidity has never been anywhere near that of Dash.

Right now, according to http://coinmarketcap.com, Monero's liquidity in the $USD market is only 20% of that of Dash. In the BTC market, Monero only has 21.9% of the liquidity of Dash.

Lol lie much? You yourself posted a little graphic a few weeks ago(Look below) of Monero's trade volume in comparison with Dash's and Bitcoin's at the time, to which Monero's was higher, now you're claiming otherwise.

Right now, yes, because it's in the middle of a pump. Previously no. On poloniex Monero would regularly(Almost, if not everyday) do 300+btc volume(When Bitcoin's price was over $400 per coin).

[BlockaFett]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

I believe it's essentially read-only access to your wallet. Of course, you can simply choose to not give out your viewkey in the same way you wouldn't give out your private key. Even if law enforcement did "demand" it, there's nothing stopping you from sending your funds to a new wallet with a non-disclosed viewkey (it wouldn't sacrifice anyone else's privacy).

[smooth]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

Pretty much the same as demanding that you turn over your wallet on any other coin, except that they can't spend, only view.

You can roll over wallets and delete the old keys (view key included), in which case you can't be forced to the turn them over or have them hacked/recovered from your computer without your cooperation, the same as any other coin.

[BlockaFett]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

I believe it's essentially read-only access to your wallet. Of course, you can simply choose to not give out your viewkey in the same way you wouldn't give out your private key. Even if law enforcement did "demand" it, there's nothing stopping you from sending your funds to a new wallet with a non-disclosed viewkey (it wouldn't sacrifice anyone else's privacy).

so does every Monero account have this ability to deanonymize it by generating a key?

(I don't agree on the legal side - a lot of countries have laws now where you have to hand over keys with court order or face harsh penalty (UK for example).  If they can prove you moved the funds out of the wallet they ordered you to deanomize you face the same harsh penalties so not a viable security solution to me - in DRK once coins are anonymised, their anonymised in-perpetuity, however much law enforcement stamp their feet, IMHO)

[BlockaFett]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

Pretty much the same as demanding that you turn over your wallet on any other coin, except that they can't spend, only view.

You can roll over wallets and delete the old keys (view key included), in which case you can't be forced to the turn them over or have them hacked/recovered from your computer without your cooperation, the same as any other coin.

All coins except DRK then.  In DRK once coins are anonymised there is no way back.  

Seems like a massive security flaw - so I use Monero and one day law enforcement demands I hand over keys, so I have to break the law to try to 'roll over wallets' and risk jail?  What if they seize your PC first?

Also in financial fraud cases they can just force people to hand over keys and all the transactions are deanonymized even to customers?  that means it's not fungible?

(pretty sure i missed something here so please don't start with the insults )

[Joshuar]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

Pretty much the same as demanding that you turn over your wallet on any other coin, except that they can't spend, only view.

You can roll over wallets and delete the old keys (view key included), in which case you can't be forced to the turn them over or have them hacked/recovered from your computer without your cooperation, the same as any other coin.

All coins except DRK then.  In DRK once coins are anonymised there is no way back.  

Seems like a massive security flaw - so I use Monero and one day law enforcement demands I hand over keys, so I have to break the law to try to 'roll over wallets' and risk jail?  What if they seize your PC first?

Also in financial fraud cases they can just force people to hand over keys and all the transactions are deanonymized even to customers?  that means it's not fungible?

(pretty sure i missed something here so please don't start with the insults )

Nothing is deanonymized. All that someone with your viewkey would see is the amount of moneroj in your account. They won't know whom sent you what or where you sent what(Ring Signatures).

[toknormal]

You yourself posted a little graphic a few weeks ago(Look below) of Monero's trade volume in comparison with Dash's and Bitcoin's at the time

Hey ! So I did. Thanks for pointing that out  

(Tip for you: Stick with Monero - you'll be in good company   )

[BlockaFett]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

Pretty much the same as demanding that you turn over your wallet on any other coin, except that they can't spend, only view.

You can roll over wallets and delete the old keys (view key included), in which case you can't be forced to the turn them over or have them hacked/recovered from your computer without your cooperation, the same as any other coin.

All coins except DRK then.  In DRK once coins are anonymised there is no way back.  

Seems like a massive security flaw - so I use Monero and one day law enforcement demands I hand over keys, so I have to break the law to try to 'roll over wallets' and risk jail?  What if they seize your PC first?

Also in financial fraud cases they can just force people to hand over keys and all the transactions are deanonymized even to customers?  that means it's not fungible?

(pretty sure i missed something here so please don't start with the insults )

Nothing is deanonymized. All that someone with your viewkey would see is the amount of moneroj in your account. They won't know whom sent you what or where you sent what.

OK so all viewkey does is show a balance on an address, nothing else?

EDIT: but ML004 quote on compliance said: "Typically, these laws require the business to prove ownership of their
own funds, and demonstrate where funds may have been sent. " ...confused

[smooth]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

Pretty much the same as demanding that you turn over your wallet on any other coin, except that they can't spend, only view.

You can roll over wallets and delete the old keys (view key included), in which case you can't be forced to the turn them over or have them hacked/recovered from your computer without your cooperation, the same as any other coin.

All coins except DRK then.  In DRK once coins are anonymised there is no way back. 

Seems like a massive security flaw - so I use Monero and one day law enforcement demands I hand over keys, so I have to break the law to try to 'roll over wallets' and risk jail?  What if they seize your PC first?

Also in financial fraud cases they can just force people to hand over keys and all the transactions are deanonymized even to customers?  that means it's not fungible?

(pretty sure i missed something here so please don't start with the insults :

If you send coins to address A in DRK there is a record of that in your wallet and likewise there is a record of having received X coins but not who they were from (assuming darksend works properly). This assumes you don't delete this of course.

View key is the same, it does not show where the coins you received came from. There is also never a way to recover the public addresses to which anything is sent absent a log file, regardless of what keys you have. Once that is used to generate a one-time address the process is irreversible.

[Joshuar]

I don't get viewkeys.

Like for example, what if law enforcement can legally demand you hand over a viewkey for an account you were using for anonymity, then they can go back and view everything?  Anyone who knows the tech can explain because I never saw viewkeys before?

Pretty much the same as demanding that you turn over your wallet on any other coin, except that they can't spend, only view.

You can roll over wallets and delete the old keys (view key included), in which case you can't be forced to the turn them over or have them hacked/recovered from your computer without your cooperation, the same as any other coin.

All coins except DRK then.  In DRK once coins are anonymised there is no way back.  

Seems like a massive security flaw - so I use Monero and one day law enforcement demands I hand over keys, so I have to break the law to try to 'roll over wallets' and risk jail?  What if they seize your PC first?

Also in financial fraud cases they can just force people to hand over keys and all the transactions are deanonymized even to customers?  that means it's not fungible?

(pretty sure i missed something here so please don't start with the insults )

Nothing is deanonymized. All that someone with your viewkey would see is the amount of moneroj in your account. They won't know whom sent you what or where you sent what.

OK so all viewkey does is show a balance on an address, nothing else?

EDIT: but ML004 quote on compliance said: "Typically, these laws require the business to prove ownership of their
own funds, and demonstrate where funds may have been sent. " ...confused

A business would know(Or at least is supposed to if they do recordkeeping) where they sent their funds. That information should/would be kept in records offline or on a spreadsheet etc.

But, say you give me your view key, I won't be able to tell who sent you moneroj, or the person that you sent moneroj to, I'd just see how many is in your account, which is why it's perfect for tax purposes etc.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Keep in mind that with Monero, it would be extremely difficult for law enforcement to know you even have a wallet, let alone which wallet they'd need to demand a viewkey from (thanks to stealth addressing). This becomes even more unlikely operating behind tor/i2p.

[Anon136]

Keep in mind that with Monero, it would be extremely difficult for law enforcement to know you even have a wallet, let alone which wallet they'd need to demand a viewkey from (thanks to stealth addressing). This becomes even more unlikely operating behind tor/i2p.

Especially if you are just using a generic hardware wallet like a trezor. It just stores generic deterministic keys. Without knowing the password and checking the resulting keys against a million different potential applications, there is no way to know what the device is even being used for. It could be bitcoin, or litecoin, or monero, or you could be using it to start your car or sign contracts.

[toknormal]

Keep in mind that with Monero, it would be extremely difficult for law enforcement to know you even have a wallet, let alone which wallet they'd need to demand a viewkey from (thanks to stealth addressing). This becomes even more unlikely operating behind tor/i2p.

Nice !

If your holed up in a forest waiting for the end of the world, use Monero.

If you want to be part of the human race and use regular *visible* digital cash that's private & untraceable - use Dash !