XMR vs DRK

[nsimmons]

Darkcoin/DASH scam ventures are bigger than I could ever imagined, they are crocked to the bones: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1003428.0

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[majamina]

can we cut the trolling and stick to reasonable DRK vs XMR debate please?

[majamina]

can we cut the trolling and stick to reasonable DRK vs XMR debate please?

"can we ignore the scam and focus on the (already beaten to its end) debate that DRK/DASH tech is made of clay?"

Thats basically what you are saying, if Monero had any dirt like that on it, I would not be here.

dude, this is a DRK vs XMR thread which should, ideally, contain debate on the technical merits of each coin.

adding dubious unsubstantiated accusations and pictures of slow-cookers into the mix is hardly reasonable.

[majamina]

can we cut the trolling and stick to reasonable DRK vs XMR debate please?

"can we ignore the scam and focus on the (already beaten to its end) debate that DRK/DASH tech is made of clay?"

Thats basically what you are saying, if Monero had any dirt like that on it, I would not be here.

dude, this is a DRK vs XMR thread which should, ideally, contain debate on the technical merits of each coin.

adding dubious unsubstantiated accusations and pictures of slow-cookers into the mix is hardly reasonable.

Have you read what fluffy said here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10875929#msg10875929

Why isn't there anything close from the DRK side?

now you just sound like a fanboy.

you should know that the debate continued well past fluffypony's post you linked, including the part where he got it totally wrong about how darksend works....

[majamina]

Guess I was not specific, I'm referring to the mathematical proofs, people tend to forget this is all based on heavy calculus.

And yes I'm a fanboy for good open-source projects.

I, nor anyone else I don't think disputes the cryptography used in XMR.

This is all covered in the debate thus far. Seems to me you've just read Fluffy's long post and sat back, arms folded, thinking 'yep we've won'.

Read the debate...

[majamina]

I have read, DRK/DASH is flawed and a scam. The End.

That post just illustrate better why XMR wins.

yeah man, super-convincing contribution you just made 

[majamina]

OK, since Masternode blinding has been a major bone of contention in this thread, I did some hunting for posts about the subject.

Here's what Evan posted recently:

Probability of following Darksend through
  - 4 non-blinded rounds with 10 masternodes* is (10/2300)^4 == 3.5734577849564574e-10
  - 4 blinded rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)**4 == 1.1528508353537067e-189

Each round uses 20 random masternodes of 2300, so you must control 20 of 2300 four times in a row. It's super secure

The formula therefore gives the following probabilities with increasing numbers of compromised masternodes:

  - 3 rounds with 10 masternodes is ((10/2300.0)^20)^3 == 1.9784716837512123e-142
  - 4 rounds with 1000 masternodes is ((1000/2300.0)^20)^4 == 1.1528508353537028e-29
  - 4 rounds with 2000 masternodes is ((2000/2300)^20)^4 == 1.39371e-05

I also found this analogy posted by someone else on the probability of tracing a transaction:

So if I understand this correctly... If somebody owned 1000 masternodes they would still have more chance finding a single grain of sand hidden within all the grains on earth (1 in 5e+21 chance :: http://www.universetoday.com/106725/are-there-more-grains-of-sand-than-stars/) than they would in linking a single transaction back to my wallet after only 4 rounds of mixing (1 in 1e+29 chance)

And this infographic:



Even if you take the super-extreme example of comprimising 2,000 masternodes (over 85% of the network) there is still only a .00139% chance of tracing an individual transaction.

[Joshuar]

you don't really care either right?

you're right, I don't. Evolution will take care of faulty designs, as usual.

I do care about the fallout on the crypto ecosystem DRK's eventual demise could cause but there's not much I can do.
However I trust it will happen before it'll even receive real attention and adoption so the fallout might be limited to the geek universe.

That's the best XMR can find?

I am not XMR, I am a person with an opinion. Are you DASH?

and someone said the DRK dev might have 300k DRK.  I sincerely hope he has, because that's about the best motivation a dev can have as long as they are honest (which as the DRK dev has shown through delivering everything he said and in time).

Wealth is a strong motivator, you're right.

Pity it's stronger then honour, transparency and integrity, the world would be in a better shape.

It has been said before but if he was motivated by his mission he would have relaunched without fiddling with emission several times and thus creating a trust issue.

sure, you and 100 XMR trolls, including the devs, suddenly decided that because you had so much honour and integrity, you had to flood the DRK thread with FUD to warn about <5% 10 to 15% of total supply being mined to fast by you don't know who because it was an open launch, 13 months after later.  And coincidentally the same time that DRK repositions to be the first viable alternative to Bitcoin and the price starts going to orbit. totally seems legit.

It's actually 10% to 15% of the total supply, that's even on the darkcoin wiki...

yes and who mined it?  you can show us right, because its such a big integrity issue you must be able to backup that accusation?  

Considering at the time, only those using Linux and solo mining could have mined it, very few people did. Of course the developers at the time, internetape and evan mined(That was even said in one of their early posts). But again, who mined is almost irrelevant. It's the fact that such a dishonest instamine even happened that leaves such a bad taste in mouths.

so not releasing on Windows is the scam?  It's a linux-only scam or what are you saying?  How do you know 90% of the 'instamine' coins weren't mined by a guy who the next day got hit by a bus?  That's what I mean - thousands of hours of typing my Monero trolls and devs just to prove...nothing...butthurt?

Are you dumb honestly? 90% of people use windows, hardly anyone uses Linux. It's so funny to see you trying to defend Dash's instamine, which was literally a scam. It's funny because I used to be a supporter of Dash/Darkcoin, and would let my "investment" in the coin do the talking, disregarding any sense of morality for supporting a coin with a scam instamine, just like you right now. I still hold darkcoin, but I obviously don't support it, it's just a pump and dump to me now.

[illodin]

Are you dumb honestly? 90% of people use windows, hardly anyone uses Linux.

Not sure but I'd imagine 90% of CPU miners have at least access to Linux.

Even if you run Windows, VirtualBox+Ubuntu is free, so not having that option is just stupid.

[Joshuar]

Are you dumb honestly? 90% of people use windows, hardly anyone uses Linux.

Not sure but I'd imagine 90% of CPU miners have at least access to Linux.

Even if you run Windows, VirtualBox+Ubuntu is free, so not having that option is just stupid.

As I've seen another user post this I'll use it, According to surveys etc done on the subject, less than 2% of all computers have linux installed. It's not a question of "Can users access linux", it's a question of "Do users even have linux installed to use". The fact that the instamine was reserved for the extremely small pool of linux users only(To which evan and internetape were), shows that it was intended. There's absolutely no reason for him to have released it on the operating system that less than 2% of all computers have installed, instead of windows for example, to which more than 90% of all computers have installed. Hell, even Mac/IOS would have been better. All these things like the block reward/coin supply being cut by more than half, not having a fair relaunch etc, put together shows just how irredeemable and downright dishonest dash/darkcoins instamine really was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

[majamina]

Are you dumb honestly? 90% of people use windows, hardly anyone uses Linux.

Not sure but I'd imagine 90% of CPU miners have at least access to Linux.

Even if you run Windows, VirtualBox+Ubuntu is free, so not having that option is just stupid.

As Ive seen another user post this Ill use it, According to surveys etc done on the subject, less than 2% of all computers have linux installed. It's not a question of "Can users access linux", it's a question of "Do users even have linux installed to use". The fact that the instamine was reserved for the extremely small pool of linux users only(To which evan and internetape were), shows that it was intended. There's absolutely no reason for him to have released it on the operating system that less than 2% of all computers have installed, instead of windows for example, to which more than 90% of all computers have installed. All these things put together shows just how irredeemable and downright dishonest that instamine really was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

I don't think those figures should apply to mining....it's a specialist area of computing. You really need figures to show percentage of mining rigs running on linux. Not sure what that would be, but I do know lots of miners run linux.

Anyway, I do suspect they might have launched on Linux to make mining more exclusive...either that or they couldn't be arsed with making windows miners - it was a completely new algo after all.

Even if they did deliberately exclude windows I don't see this as particularly unethical, it's just the way they chose to launch. Anyone could have put the work in and got mining on Linux.

[Joshuar]

Are you dumb honestly? 90% of people use windows, hardly anyone uses Linux.

Not sure but I'd imagine 90% of CPU miners have at least access to Linux.

Even if you run Windows, VirtualBox+Ubuntu is free, so not having that option is just stupid.

As Ive seen another user post this Ill use it, According to surveys etc done on the subject, less than 2% of all computers have linux installed. It's not a question of "Can users access linux", it's a question of "Do users even have linux installed to use". The fact that the instamine was reserved for the extremely small pool of linux users only(To which evan and internetape were), shows that it was intended. There's absolutely no reason for him to have released it on the operating system that less than 2% of all computers have installed, instead of windows for example, to which more than 90% of all computers have installed. All these things put together shows just how irredeemable and downright dishonest that instamine really was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

I don't think those figures should apply to mining....it's a specialist area of computing. You really need figures to show percentage of mining rigs running on linux. Not sure what that would be, but I do know lots of miners run linux.

Anyway, I do suspect they might have launched on Linux to make mining more exclusive...either that or they couldn't be arsed with making windows miners - it was a completely new algo after all.

Even if they did deliberately exclude windows I don't see this as particularly unethical, it's just the way they chose to launch. Anyone could have put the work in and got mining on Linux.

As Wolf0 showed in his thread about the x11 algo, it's basically a less efficient version of Scrypt, it is in no way special. It's extremely unethical, most altcoins I've seen allow you to mine on windows. It would have been a different story of the block reward/coin supply wasnt cut by more than half, but it was, which really makes this instamine a scam of sorts. Like others have also said, there are no other possible explanations. It's either it was a deliberate scam(Which most seems like it) or extreme, extreme incompetence.

I know lots of miners that don't use linux and use only windows, with me being one of them. Those figures can be applied to this field, the extremely disproportionate amount of people that use linux generally vs windows can also show that more people use windows here to mine than linux. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. You're trying to justify something(the instamine) that simply cannot be justified. I tried as well as I said before last year when I unfortunately supported this crap.

It is really a coincidence that they chose one of the least used operating systems on the planet? I think not.

[Macno]

As someone who is incapable of mining either on Linux or on Windows with all that complicated configuration stuff, I am outraged that neither Dash nor XMR have delivered easy plug-and-play miners way before. I feel scammed.

[Joshuar]

As someone who is incapable of mining either on Linux or on Windows with all that complicated configuration stuff, I am outraged that neither Dash nor XMR have delivered easy plug-and-play miners way before. I feel scammed.

Well you could have/can mine/d with windows for xmr. Windows isnt difficult(90% of all computers use windows).

[majamina]

As Wolf0 showed in his thread about the x11 algo, it's basically a less efficient version of Scrypt, it is in no way special. It's extremely unethical, most altcoins I've seen allow you to mine on windows. It would have been a different story of the block reward/coin supply wasnt cut by more than half, but it was, which really makes this instamine a scam of sorts. Like others have also said, there are no other possible explanations. It's either it was a deiberate scam(Which most seems like it) or extreme, extreme incompetence.

I know lots of miners that don't use linux and use only windows, with me being one of them. Those figures can be applied to this field, the extremely disproportionate amount of people that user linux generally vs windows can also show that more people use windows here to mine than linux. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. You're trying to justify something(the instamine) that simply cannot be justified. I tried as well as I said before last year when I unfortunately supported this crap.

Look I'm really not trying to justify the 'instamine', I'm just pointing out innacuracies in your post. You talk about the entire computing population of the world when estimating a percentage of miners running Linux.

Loads of CPU & GPU miners run Linux. There are dedicated, bootable Linux distributions designed specifically for mining like BAMT and SMOS.

Big GPU farms run Linux. You think it's easier to run loads of windows installs than USB-bootable BAMT?

Also, I don't see it as unethical to launch on CPU-only, wintel-only, linux-only - whatever-the-fuck-you-like-only.....it's up to you how you launch and up to miners if they mine or not. Miners are free, to do what they want, any old time...

[illodin]

As someone who is incapable of mining either on Linux or on Windows with all that complicated configuration stuff, I am outraged that neither Dash nor XMR have delivered easy plug-and-play miners way before. I feel scammed.

Yep. I didn't mine Monero or any of the CN coins at launch or ever for that matter because I found installing and configuring that stuff too much of a work. And I tried to mine as many coins at launches as possible. But I'm not crying about it as I know it was my fault for being lazy.

For someone who is familiar with mining Bitcoin and Litecoin clones, installing VirtualBox + Ubuntu is much easier than trying to install and configure Monero on Windows. Or at least it was at the time of the launch, I'm sure they've made it easier by now.

[5w00p]

sigh...

Can you really not see the difference? BTC was released with x blocks in y time with n coins per Block halving at defined points in time. It stayed that way. These are parameters you can trust.

I also didn't use or imply the term (un-)ethical anywhere. I didn't use the term scammers or pumpers or fishy either.

Anyway this is pointless. I am outta here.

Yes, Evan messed it up, he then tried to repair the damage. The community was fine with it. I did not say that you used those terms, but what are you implying then? That`s what the others who criticize it suggest.

Cults are usually quite fond of their leaders. This case would be no exception.

[Joshuar]

As Wolf0 showed in his thread about the x11 algo, it's basically a less efficient version of Scrypt, it is in no way special. It's extremely unethical, most altcoins I've seen allow you to mine on windows. It would have been a different story of the block reward/coin supply wasnt cut by more than half, but it was, which really makes this instamine a scam of sorts. Like others have also said, there are no other possible explanations. It's either it was a deiberate scam(Which most seems like it) or extreme, extreme incompetence.

I know lots of miners that don't use linux and use only windows, with me being one of them. Those figures can be applied to this field, the extremely disproportionate amount of people that user linux generally vs windows can also show that more people use windows here to mine than linux. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. You're trying to justify something(the instamine) that simply cannot be justified. I tried as well as I said before last year when I unfortunately supported this crap.

Look I'm really not trying to justify the 'instamine', I'm just pointing out innacurracies in your post. You talk about the entire computing population of the world when estimating a percentage of miners running Linux.

Loads of CPU & GPU miners run Linux. There are dedicated, bootable Linux distributions designed specifically for mining like BAMT and SMOS.

Big GPU farms run Linux. You think it's easier to run loads of wintel installs than USB-bootable BAMT?

Also, I don't see it as unethical to launch on CPU-only, wintel-only, linux-only - whatever-the-fuck-you-like-only.....it's up to you how you launch and up to miners if they mine or not. Miners are free, to do what they want, any old time...

I'm using statistics and surverys done on the subject, so you are in fact pointing out "facts", not inaccuracies. And according to those statistics 90% of all computers have windows, thats the simple fact. There's no getting around it, and yes you are trying to justify it, don't tell me otherwise when it's obvious by your wording and sentences.

It is extremely, extremely dishonest/unethical for a coin(dash/darkcoin) to have had 500 coins per block being emitted, to which over 1million coins were mined in under 10 hours, then another 1million mined for the next 30 hours, all on linux(Which less than 2% of all computers have). Then the block reward was cut from 500/200 per block to under 100, and finally the coin supply was cut from 80million to 20million, instantly making the instamined coins rarer and much, much more valuable(Over 3x more valuable instantly). There's no other way to put it, Dash/Darkcoin's instamine was a scam.

[majamina]

I'm using statistics and surverys done on the subject, so you are in fact pointing out "facts", not inaccuracies. And according to those statistics 90% of all computers have windows, thats the simple fact. There's no getting around it, and yes you are trying to justify it, don't tell me otherwise when it's obvious by your wording and sentences.

No dude you're full of shit...general statistics on the global computing population don't represent the mining community. Do some research on mining.

Sounds like your opinion is based on your own experience of mining. You know that people run scale-out mining operations on AWS, with Linux? You think the serious GPU guys are putting hard disks into all their rigs and installing fucking billyware?

Sweet jesus

It is extremely, extremely dishonest/unethical for a coin(dash/darkcoin) to have had 500 coins per block being emitted, to which over 1million coins were mined in under 10 hours, then another 1million mined for the next 30 hours,

I said _nothing_ about that. All I said was that a coin launching with linux-only, windows-only or whatever only is TOTALLY FAIR. You don't have to mine it if you don't want to - how is it unfair?

[Macno]

sigh...

Can you really not see the difference? BTC was released with x blocks in y time with n coins per Block halving at defined points in time. It stayed that way. These are parameters you can trust.

I also didn't use or imply the term (un-)ethical anywhere. I didn't use the term scammers or pumpers or fishy either.

Anyway this is pointless. I am outta here.

Yes, Evan messed it up, he then tried to repair the damage. The community was fine with it. I did not say that you used those terms, but what are you implying then? That`s what the others who criticize it suggest.

Cults are usually quite fond of their leaders. This case would be no exception.

Yeah, right  
Nice ad hominem.
I am an investor and unlikely crypto afficionado (unlikely, as I am the end user type of guy, no coder or IT guy) and when I read about that instamine story, I did not care at all about Evan, I did not know him. I was initially worried and then I thought "well, he messed it up, but ok, let`s move on, as he seems to be honest and the DRK guys are not too worried either". That was almost a year ago. During that time, Evan kept delivering and seems to me to be a nice competent guy. It has been a year during which everybody and their mom could have mined or bought DRK/DASH. Even I was able to do it.
By the way: I am also rather impressed by the XMR devs and have some XMR as well, as this is rational investor behavior to diversify your portfolio, unlike fanboys who put all eggs in one basket or have signatures showing they have a single affiliation to a single coin - that`s cultish behavior if you ask me.