Default Trust Visualisation [Picture Heavy!!!] [14th Sept]

[dogie]

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DefaultTrust Visualisation
Hello all, I've been playing around with new data visualisation software and thought I'd use DefaultTrust's data while learning. I've coded something that takes data from the trust list and provides it to the software, so it should be pretty quick to update it over time, or provide other variants or custom trust lists.

Comments:

• Nodes [the names] represent accounts, and lines / arrows joining them represent additions on trust lists. Ie BadBear-> theymos represents BadBear including Theymos on his trust list.
• Both size and color are used to visualise Depth level on Depth 2 and Depth 3 networks. See additional comments on the more complicated ones later on.
  
• Doesn't visualise exclusions from DefaultTrust, those people just aren't shown, or as shown as trusted if others still trust them.
• Only shows the highest appearance of a member in Default Trust. Ie Badbear is in multiple levels, but will only be shown in Depth 1.
• Excludes 'upstream' list additions from Depth 2 members to Depth 1 or 0 in the non full network visualisations.
• Does not show 'upstream' list additions from Depth 2 members to Depth 1 or 0.
• FA2 = "Forced Atlas 2", YH = "Yifan Hu" mathematical algorithms.

2015.05.16 Depth2 FA2 [1MB]	2015.05.16 Depth2 YH [1MB]	2015.05.16 Depth2 Layered [1MB]

These are the same networks as if CanaryInTheMine was still in DefaultTrust with his old list. You can see the problem his list caused.

2015.05.16 Depth2 + CITM FA2 [4MB]	2015.05.16 Depth3 + CITM YH [3MB]	2015.05.16 Depth2 + CITM Layered [6MB]

With Depth3.

2015.05.16 Depth3 FA2 [4MB]	2015.05.16 Depth3 YH [5MB]	2015.05.16 Depth3 Layered [20MB]

"Depth11" trust network [See notes here]

2015.05.16 Depth11 FA2 [40MB]	2015.05.16 Depth11 FA [50MB]

**NEWEST** "Depth11" trust network [See notes here]

2015.09.12 Depth11 FA2 [64MB]	2015.09.12 Depth 11 YH [60MB]

2015.09.12 Depth11 Layered [81MB]	2015.09.12 Depth11 3D Layered [40MB]

[1714191942]

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[1714191942]

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[Quickseller]

What conclusions do you think can be made with either the above results or with results with your software?

[byt411]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why am I under BadBear, if I have never been given trust by him??

[MarbleBoss]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why am I under BadBear, if I have never been given trust by him??

This is trust list, not trust feedback. They are different.

[dogie]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why am I under BadBear, if I have never been given trust by him??

This is trust list, not trust feedback. They are different.

Yup, in his trust list. I think I removed all the errors in the formulas but let me know if you see any glaring ones.

What conclusions do you think can be made with either the above results or with results with your software?

That I can make? Not a lot, but it allows you to see who is adding people as a sole source, who is trusted by multiple (towards the centre) etc.

Default trust looks very different when you set it to Depth 3 [I'll do it tomorrow], and forgot to say this does NOT include those excluded.

[Snagglebone]

Bitcointalk, oh how awesome you are!

Bitcoin philosophy to decentralize monetary concerns and build a trustless system. So what does Bitcointalk do? Makes a centralized trust network and enforces it by default for anyone signing up through the DefaultTrust network.

Not only does Defaulttrust go against everything Bitcoin is built to avoid, but it is a perfect demonstration of WHY it should be avoided, since so many scammers and untrustworthy people have been in DefaultTrust at one time or another and many more will be in the future.

What a load of horseshit.

[Vod]

Bitcointalk, oh how awesome you are!

Bitcoin philosophy to decentralize monetary concerns and build a trustless system. So what does Bitcointalk do? Makes a centralized trust network and enforces it by default for anyone signing up through the DefaultTrust network.

Not only does Defaulttrust go against everything Bitcoin is built to avoid, but it is a perfect demonstration of WHY it should be avoided, since so many scammers and untrustworthy people have been in DefaultTrust at one time or another and many more will be in the future.

What a load of horseshit.

It's easy to complain.

It's a lot more difficult to come up with something better.

[cathoderay]

What conclusions do you think can be made with either the above results or with results with your software?

Nothing at all. Apart from Adam Allcock & yourself following each other around, swapping spit & posting exactly the same thing as each other in an effort to cover up the fact that you both (correctly) have multiple trust abuse claims against you in this very section. Not to mention his obvious scam thread where you keep posting for him  

It's ironic that probably the two worst trust abusers on the forum keep harping on about how trustworthy they think they are, when it took me less than a minute to count a combined total of at least 6 dedicated threads here complaining of trust abuse by both of you towards forum members - & that's not including the many more posts complaining about you both in many, many other threads.

This has all the hallmarks of becoming another quickseller/dogie love-in thread. Let it die before that happens.

Someone save us  

[Vod]

...
It's easy to complain.

It's a lot more difficult to come up with something better.

Many better alternatives have been proposed and rejected. Like getting rid of "default trust," for starters.
Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

Default trust serves its purpose for helping new members avoid scams.  It may not be perfect but it's the best we have.

[byt411]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why am I under BadBear, if I have never been given trust by him??

This is trust list, not trust feedback. They are different.

Yup, in his trust list. I think I removed all the errors in the formulas but let me know if you see any glaring ones.

What conclusions do you think can be made with either the above results or with results with your software?

That I can make? Not a lot, but it allows you to see who is adding people as a sole source, who is trusted by multiple (towards the centre) etc.

Default trust looks very different when you set it to Depth 3 [I'll do it tomorrow], and forgot to say this does NOT include those excluded.

Oh wait, does this mean that BadBear has added me to his personal trust list? Wow, that's awesome.
Where do you get information of people's personal trust lists?

[dogie]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why am I under BadBear, if I have never been given trust by him??

This is trust list, not trust feedback. They are different.

Yup, in his trust list. I think I removed all the errors in the formulas but let me know if you see any glaring ones.

What conclusions do you think can be made with either the above results or with results with your software?

That I can make? Not a lot, but it allows you to see who is adding people as a sole source, who is trusted by multiple (towards the centre) etc.

Default trust looks very different when you set it to Depth 3 [I'll do it tomorrow], and forgot to say this does NOT include those excluded.

Oh wait, does this mean that BadBear has added me to his personal trust list? Wow, that's awesome.
Where do you get information of people's personal trust lists?

Yes, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;full for the hierarchical view. If you have a custom trust list, you'll have to delete it back to DefaultTrust temporarily to see the 'standard' view.

[byt411]

Okay, I'm confused now. Why am I under BadBear, if I have never been given trust by him??

This is trust list, not trust feedback. They are different.

Yup, in his trust list. I think I removed all the errors in the formulas but let me know if you see any glaring ones.

What conclusions do you think can be made with either the above results or with results with your software?

That I can make? Not a lot, but it allows you to see who is adding people as a sole source, who is trusted by multiple (towards the centre) etc.

Default trust looks very different when you set it to Depth 3 [I'll do it tomorrow], and forgot to say this does NOT include those excluded.

Oh wait, does this mean that BadBear has added me to his personal trust list? Wow, that's awesome.
Where do you get information of people's personal trust lists?

Yes, see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;full for the hierarchical view. If you have a custom trust list, you'll have to delete it back to DefaultTrust temporarily to see the 'standard' view.

Ohh, that makes sense now. Thank you for the explanation, and sorry for being a douchebag; I find the trust system more difficult understand than the Bitcoin protocol, lol.

[dserrano5]

So what does Bitcointalk do? Makes a centralized trust network and enforces it by default for anyone signing up through the DefaultTrust network.

"enforces", yeah theymos pointed me with a gun to accept DefaultTrust. Oh wait, I don't trust DefaultTrust…

Please do a favour to yourself (and others) and replace the time spent posting nonsense with time spent setting up your trust network.

[Snagglebone]

So what does Bitcointalk do? Makes a centralized trust network and enforces it by default for anyone signing up through the DefaultTrust network.

"enforces", yeah theymos pointed me with a gun to accept DefaultTrust. Oh wait, I don't trust DefaultTrust…

Please do a favour to yourself (and others) and replace the time spent posting nonsense with time spent setting up your trust network.

I already did. Most users who sign up don't know what DefaultTrust is and don't know that they should disable it. That's my point. Thank you for making my point for me.

I like how all the staff and people in the DefaultTrust are all for it and constantly talk about all it's virtues and how it actually "helps newbies avoid scams" when some of the biggest scammers were in DefaultTrust to start with.

Yes, Theymos enforces it. It's on by default. If it wasn't enforced, it would be off by default.

Please do yourself a "favour" and replace the time spent posting about things you obviously don't know anything about and do something useful with your time.

...
It's easy to complain.

It's a lot more difficult to come up with something better.

Many better alternatives have been proposed and rejected. Like getting rid of "default trust," for starters.
Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

Yes, many things have been proposed. The simplest being remove DefaultTrust and let people set up their own trust lists. That is far better than a scam filled DefaultTrust good-old-boy network. A fair portion of the people in the current DefaultTrust have been related to one scam or another, or some shady action either directly or by proxy. There's nothing trustworthy about anyone in the DefaultTrust.

But regardless of where you stand on DefaultTrust... the fact is DefaultTrust is a centralized system controlled by a few (one person, actually). Unless you are part of the elite, you have no say in DefaultTrust. It's 100% exactly what Satoshi and the whole Bitcoin movement is meant to avoid. It goes against the idea and philosophy of the very core of Bitcoin, that's why it's so ridiculous.

Decentralization indeed.

[TheButterZone]

Hmm, I was able to find my libeler at level 2 and their sponsor at level 1. There's 2 excludes for my list!

Wonder how many more are at level 2 that I've left neg or neutral trust on...

[Snagglebone]

...
It's easy to complain.

It's a lot more difficult to come up with something better.

Many better alternatives have been proposed and rejected. Like getting rid of "default trust," for starters.
Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

Default trust serves its purpose for helping new members avoid scams.  It may not be perfect but it's the best we have.

Any data to back that up, or just a guess?
I always thought Bitcoiners weren't into nanny-state protecting us from ourselves? You realize that's exactly what the default trust is, right? A guy at the top deciding what's good for everyone, those who know what's good for them agree and become the next tier down, the rest, if they know what's good for them, suck up to the second tier and get their green treets.
If they suck good enough and long enough, one day they too may get on tier 2 default trust.

I, personally, no longer give a fuck about this place. It's hit the scumbaggery critical mass a while ago, it's no longer about bitcoin. It's about making money off bitcoin, about *selling* warez & hacked accounts, about loansharking and getting pickpocketed in the lending section, about running second-rate scams in the "securities" section, about buying and selling accounts, about posting shit just to get paid from a sig ad, about running ponzis and about fucking moron marks who "play" them.

Thanks for protecting n00bs tho.

Holy shit, I'm not sure I could have paraphrased that any better. You are exactly right... I had not even gotten that far in my thinking with regards to how things are run around here, but now that you point it out it really is a travesty and a joke. DefaultTrust is there to "protect all the newbs!" but those in the DefaultTrust and otherwise let all sorts of other amoral shit go on in the name of freedom and libertarian idealism bullshit.

Now that you've clarified it, I'd go so far as to say anyone who thinks DefaultTrust is a good idea is a hypocritical twat. Do something about all the scams and hinky shit going on nearly everywhere on the forum before you bitch about how DefaultTrust is helping newbs and it is a good thing.

I gotta hand it to you dogie, you have perfectly visualised what a "Good-old-boy" network looks like. It's near perfect visualization of Congress, lobbyists and politicians in a microcosm. Bravo! Satoshi must be turning over in his grave right about now.

[Bicknellski]

Bitcointalk, oh how awesome you are!

Bitcoin philosophy to decentralize monetary concerns and build a trustless system. So what does Bitcointalk do? Makes a centralized trust network and enforces it by default for anyone signing up through the DefaultTrust network.

Not only does Defaulttrust go against everything Bitcoin is built to avoid, but it is a perfect demonstration of WHY it should be avoided, since so many scammers and untrustworthy people have been in DefaultTrust at one time or another and many more will be in the future.

What a load of horseshit.

It's easy to complain.

It's a lot more difficult to come up with something better.

Yes. Yes it is. Solutions?

[Vod]

I'd go so far as to say anyone who thinks DefaultTrust is a good idea is a hypocritical twat.

I'm OK being called a twat by a newbie account with no bitcoin experience, but what makes you think I'm a hypocrite?  

I do something everyday to combat scams and "hinky shit" that go on in this forum.  Have you taken a look at my untrusted feedback? 

[Quickseller]

So what does Bitcointalk do? Makes a centralized trust network and enforces it by default for anyone signing up through the DefaultTrust network.

"enforces", yeah theymos pointed me with a gun to accept DefaultTrust. Oh wait, I don't trust DefaultTrust…

Please do a favour to yourself (and others) and replace the time spent posting nonsense with time spent setting up your trust network.

Personally, I think that it is probably not a bad idea to have DefaultTurst in your trust list as it is a good starting point as to whose ratings you should trust. As you spend time in the various marketplace sections (as well as other parts of the forum), you will be able to determine who is reputable enough to have in your trust list, and add them to your trust list (even if they are already in your trust network), and will see who is leaving trust ratings that you do not believe in (and are in your trust network), and exclude them from your trust list. Over time, you will have a trust list with a lot of exclusions and a good number of people in your trust list. If you have been around long enough then you should be able to develop a trust network that results in fairly accurate trust scores.

[Snagglebone]

I'd go so far as to say anyone who thinks DefaultTrust is a good idea is a hypocritical twat.

I'm OK being called a twat by a newbie account with no bitcoin experience, but what makes you think I'm a hypocrite?  

I do something everyday to combat scams and "hinky shit" that go on in this forum.  Have you taken a look at my untrusted feedback?  

I have far more bitcoin experience than you, not that it matters on iota. It's interesting that you feel the need to bring it up in your defense, since you lack any other cogent argument.

As far as your untrusted feedback, why would I care? I don't know you. I have no reason to trust you. Why should I give two shits about what you have to say on a given subject as being authoritative? You've offered no reason why DefaultTrust is desirable or in line with the philosophical underpinnings of Bitcoin. You've offered no reason why we should keep DefaultTrust. You've basically done nothing but offer "That's the way it is." as your only defense, followed by "You're a newb." Neither of which is an actual rebuttal to a solid decry of the DefaultTrust good-old-boy network. In fact, your responses lead me to believe that you know how flimsy your arguments are, so you are deflecting the issue onto anecdotal and irrelevant topics.

Just because you may or may not do something "everyday to combat scams" means absolutely nothing with regards to you being a hypocrite. DefaultTrust is against everything Bitcoin seeks to establish. It centralizes an authority who says what's right and wrong, who's real and fake, who's trustworthy and who isn't. Not only does it centralize it, but it puts it into ONE persons hands... not even a group of people. It is the ultimate centralization tool to exclude anyone who goes against the party line.

If you support DefaultTrust and are a proponent of Bitcoin you are, be default, a hypocrite. In case you aren't aware, being a hypocrite is one who says one thing and does the opposite. You support bitcoin and the decentralization of trust, or better yet the elimination of the need for trust while espousing the benefits of a centralized trust system on Bitcoin talk. That is the very definition of a hypocrite. So yes, no matter how much you do every day to combat scams, you are still a hypocrite.

I am not advocating getting rid of the trust system, even though it's kind of a joke. I believe it may serve a legitimate, however tenuous, purpose. I AM advocating getting rid of the centralized DefaultTrust.