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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 383385 times)
Richy_T
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May 27, 2013, 09:07:06 PM
 #1681

First, I didn't call TESLA a scam. How about you stop taking what I say out of context.


Where did he say you called Tesla a scam?

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Richy_T
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May 27, 2013, 09:10:33 PM
 #1682

Riight Charlie... post a picture of you and a celebrity at an event with a bunch of people around and suddenly "Elon Musk is a friend of mine!" ... well hell, by that token, Penn Jillette, Jack McDevitt, and Roger Waters are close personal friends of mine!  Thanks!


You know when you put quote marks around something, it's supposed to indicate that you're quoting something, right? As in actually repeating verbatim the words that somebody used?

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May 27, 2013, 09:38:28 PM
 #1683

First, I didn't call TESLA a scam. How about you stop taking what I say out of context.


Where did he say you called Tesla a scam?

Right here he said it.

But, at this point, with what people are trying to use to determine a scam, well you may as well call TESLA motors is a scam as well since they're a new company and have only released one shippment of their electric sports car and have the possibility of taking off with all of the pre-order money.

He is implying that if BFL is a scam, then that makes Tesla a scam as well. This could not be more wrong. They have shipped one thousand times more cars (which are one thousand times harder to make) than BFL has shipped ASIC units.

While his comment does not implicitly state that Tesla is a scam he directly implies it. We can draw on semantics to argue here, but I think the result is clear to everyone who can think for themselves and has access to the facts. Tesla is nothing like BFL. Don't drag Tesla into this.
puntoMX
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May 28, 2013, 12:14:01 AM
 #1684

No butterfly is not scam only very low low low low speed and delivered
If they ever ship, there will be a better alternative.

I'll keep it with my videocards and FPGA boards (not from BFL)...
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May 28, 2013, 02:34:13 AM
 #1685

I myself was VERY excited about those BFL SC things (http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/), but it sounded too good to be true. I was one step before pre-ordering the Mini Rig 'SC' for just $30k, which could deliver 1TH/s (update -> 1.5 TH/s according to the website now!). You know what? Bullshit.

Is butterfly labs mining with those ASICs at the moment? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110290.0)
Hell no! Do you see some huge raise in hashing power? No.
Would it be beneficial to mine on their own devices? Hell yes! More than just selling them.

Quote from: Desolator link=topic=110290.msg1200110#msg1200110
If circumstantial evidence isn't enough, try simple business logic.  The price is set at $149 for a 3500MH/s chip. At current prices, they would make $149 after about 10.8 days of mining!  So why doesn't Butterfly Labs just run them for 10.8 days instead of selling them?  Then they'd have $149 and the chips lol.  I mean seriously, read those last 2 sentences again, people.  You think they're not mining with them?  I can't be the only one that realizes this.  From a business perspective, if you had an investment that would pay off 200% in a month and you sell it off instead, you're a crazy person.

You know the true reason why they are not mining with them? They can't. They don't have them.

But they have already proven legit! They fullfiled the orders and delivered FPGAs!
Sure they have. Gained your trust. And will take them back. And you will pay even more. You will loose your working FPGAs and also money. Huge money.

Quote
Trade in terms: Qualifying trade in for upgrades can be either an older generation Mini Rig or 25 older generation Singles. Once your new rig is ready for delivery (currently scheduled for November), you'll be notified to ship your trade in units to us. Upon receipt we'll release your new Mini Rig SC for shipment to you.

They still could have runned before..
They could, but why would they? Establish trust. Then run away.
They could have stolen $1M.

Now they have $30M and the hardware. Many of you fell for it.

Quote from: squall1066 link=topic=89685.msg987282#msg987282
Total Orders (By last seen)        7678
   
Orders Tracked         227
Trade-In Orders         66
   
Units Sold   
   
Jalapeno SC            225
Single SC               231
Mini Rig SC               21
   
Extended TH   
   
Jalepeno SC       0.7875
Single SC             9.24
Mini Rig SC               21
   
Grand Total of   31.0275

I still trust them.
Really? What about that the CEO is a fraduster, sentenced to 3 years in prison and is currently released and violating the terms?

Quote from: elux link=topic=110805.msg1206567#msg1206567
September 15, 2010

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. SONNY VLEISIDES

...
The defendant is hereby placed on supervised release, effective immediately, for a term of three years under the following terms and conditions:
...
The defendant shall not engage, as whole or partial owner, employee or otherwise, in any business involving loan programs, gambling or gaming activities, telemarketing activities, investment programs or any other business involving the solicitation of funds or cold-calls to customers without the express approval of the Probation Officer prior to engagement in such employment.

As always, I feel terribly sorry for all you guys.

If anyone ever sells you anything for YOU to make money with instead of them keeping it and getting rich themselves you know something is up.  Just someone taking advantage of people not in the know.
Richy_T
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May 28, 2013, 04:26:56 AM
 #1686

First, I didn't call TESLA a scam. How about you stop taking what I say out of context.


Where did he say you called Tesla a scam?

Right here he said it.

But, at this point, with what people are trying to use to determine a scam, well you may as well call TESLA motors is a scam as well since they're a new company and have only released one shippment of their electric sports car and have the possibility of taking off with all of the pre-order money.

He is implying that if BFL is a scam, then that makes Tesla a scam as well. This could not be more wrong. They have shipped one thousand times more cars (which are one thousand times harder to make) than BFL has shipped ASIC units.

While his comment does not implicitly state that Tesla is a scam he directly implies it. We can draw on semantics to argue here, but I think the result is clear to everyone who can think for themselves and has access to the facts. Tesla is nothing like BFL. Don't drag Tesla into this.

Not to contradict anything you say but CharlesHoskinson didn't actually accuse sleevedbiker of calling Tesla a scam, he merely said that Tesla should not be compared to BFL. It was sleevedbiker who drew that inference.

Edit: My bad. Looking back at it, CharlesHoskinson was guilty of selective quoting of Sleevedbiker. My apologies to Sleeved and tut-tut to Charles, such things are really not called for or needed.

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May 28, 2013, 04:53:28 AM
 #1687

I bought a Jalapeno's Miner but...
I don't know when it will be shipped to Colombia -.-

BTC: 1Dr5zwhKQehXRxcSupV8DuJjbhpPJfUHrz
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May 28, 2013, 10:23:43 AM
 #1688

I hope that at least this year we have ours asic..
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May 28, 2013, 10:49:55 AM
 #1689

LOL!

I read this post, scrolled down below it, see a butterfly labs miner ad...

How will they take them back though?
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May 28, 2013, 01:09:21 PM
 #1690

Quote

 Wrong. It was never, EVER, sold or represented as a Research and Development product.

He's a sockpuppet or a troll. Defending BFL at this stage is beyond possible. Notice Gavin made a nice statement about BFL's delay and then suddenly this happened:

Quote
Got a ButterflyLabs ASIC doo-hickey. PITA to find/setup pool/software/etc, but it is now hashing away at 5.2 GigaHash @ 35 watts
I wonder when he preordered....https://twitter.com/gavinandresen



Possibly it was a resale from someone else who pre-ordered.

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charleshoskinson
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May 28, 2013, 01:12:21 PM
 #1691

Or a gift to further promote the product

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
SimplyBTC
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May 28, 2013, 01:16:22 PM
 #1692

Their ads and ebay listings never seem quite right to me  either!

www.SimplyBTC.co.uk
retro72
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May 28, 2013, 01:50:47 PM
 #1693

People are trying to sell their pre-orders on ebay, at a mark up. Luckily they are not having much success it seems.
tzh2231
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May 28, 2013, 01:57:09 PM
 #1694

Is BFL really scam or not? I need to decide whether to dispute my Paypal transaction...
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May 28, 2013, 02:00:52 PM
 #1695

Is BFL really scam or not? I need to decide whether to dispute my Paypal transaction...

If it is within the time frame, I'd dispute it. Not everyone is so lucky.

          WTF!     Don't Click Here              
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May 28, 2013, 02:11:40 PM
 #1696

All sales are final is stated on their website. Ofcourse not the case if you check paypal's regulations..
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May 28, 2013, 02:38:55 PM
 #1697

All sales are final is stated on their website. Ofcourse not the case if you check paypal's regulations..

All sales are final also basically states that they're establishing a binding contract to deliver a product in return for money they already accepted.  Apparently, they're lying about that "all sales are final" thing, too, because they apparently no longer consider sales "final" when they try to weasel out of their responsibility to deliver by canceling your order if you complain about them not delivering.

I'd love to see these assholes get in criminal problems and Sonny go back to prison where he belongs.  Maybe Josh can be his prison bitch.
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May 28, 2013, 02:40:18 PM
 #1698

Quote
There are a few actually. 80% of companies fall behind of a scheduled release date.


Tesla Motors never fell behind their release date just their shipping volume numbers. They did ship several Model S Sedans in June of 2012.

Quote
Not one thing that you bring up justifies a scam.


This is where we disagree. When I assert to have an ASIC that is ready to ship within a few months that implies I have a working prototype in my lab and I am doing Q&A, resolving software issues and optimizing the product. Fabrication errors and delays can take months to resolve. It is dishonest to assert such optimistic shipping dates when you have no legitimate reason to believe them. Either they are incompetent or simply lied.

Quote
I will agree with you that from what I have read, they should handle them selves better in their responses or don't respond at all. People talk crap about every company that doesn't mean they should go and argue with their customers. Also, if a customer is that un-happy with the company than they should cancel their orders and not give them any of their money again.

When an executive of a company repeatedly calls his customers idiots- especially ones who have patiently waited and have been lied to for months, this conduct is grounds for termination not a "we can do better" response.
Quote
But, coming onto a forum and misusing terminology doesn't hurt the company at all, it makes the person look like an imbecile for misusing terms.

I have been very specific in my terminology. I say they lied in their marketing to gain preorder volume and then continued to accept money for products that cannot exist. The claimed a 1 watt per GH spec and were 6 times out of spec. That is a fact confirmed by two independent reviewers. Furthermore Ars Technica claims the 5 GH unit uses over 50 watts. This kind of per unit variation isn't a good sign for product quality and again supports the claim they are shipping a beta product.

Quote
And I guarantee you at least 70% of the people talking crap about Butterfly labs are people who didn't read the print(which wasn't even in a small font) that said this was a pre-order and maybe should have realized when a product is made for the first time, it's very likely they will run into some difficulties causing delays.

This is why we have kickstarter and other platforms. Risk comes in thresholds. BFL represented their product line as near complete and shipping soon when they started accepting preorders. They continued this representation in November, in January, in March and now today. I can understand and accept delays, but it was fundamentally irresponsible for BFL to claim they could ship when they had no possible way of knowing if it was true.

Quote
Yes, they may have taken pre-orders a little too early. But, I have pre-ordered a product before 3 months before a release date was even announced, which then took a little over one year from the announcement.  If people do not like that than they should wait until it's no longer a pre-order.

I'm glad you are comfortable with that risk.

Quote
And I am not being biased as I pre-ordered from Butterfly Labs almost one year ago. I also didn't pay using bitcoins, I paid using a CC that has a protection service on it regardless of how long the process may take. So, yes, I had my doubts as well. But, in no way are they a scam(i know you agreed with this part), not one person has proven a scam. They have all proven a new company running into problems on their first launch.

A company without any transparency, accountability, duty to their customers nor a willingness to answer basic questions like when did you actually have a chip from the fabricator in your labs for testing or how did you come up with the 1 watt per GH claim? A legitimate company would be happy to share these details in the event of such a significant delay. It would give them creditability and show they care about their customers.
Quote
Now, if we wake up one day and the site is gone and they're no longer updating us with information(which they're on their forum). Than we have something to look into. But, at this point, with what people are trying to use to determine a scam, well you may as well call TESLA motors is a scam as well since they're a new company and have only released one shipment of their electric sports car and have the possibility of taking off with all of the pre-order money.

I never took this out of context. Again, your understanding of Tesla Motors is shaky at best. They are not a new company nor had the same business practices as BFL. Tesla first sold the roadster under limited distribution and had a direct relationship with their customers. In fact early customers could call Elon Musk directly if there were issues with their cars. When they scaled up to the Model S, they first spent years building the Freemont facility and developing proof of concept vehicles before accepting preorder money.

The preorders were reservations and were only a fraction of the price of the car. At the same time Tesla was accepting preorders they were pursuing an IPO and being vetting by hundreds of independent financial entities, their books were being reviewed by the SEC and an underwriting bank.

Furthermore, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twC1d-HEfJw. That is the man you are equating with BFL's business practices. He just voluntarily pierced the corporate veil. Musk is worth over 2.5 billion dollars and he exposed that wealth just to backup his own product. Please leave one of the most innovative and honest companies in the world out of a discussion of BFL. There is a place for the preorder risk BFL exposed the market to it's called Kickstarter.    

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harposox
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May 28, 2013, 03:12:09 PM
 #1699

People are trying to sell their pre-orders on ebay, at a mark up. Luckily they are not having much success it seems.

Jeesh. That takes some gumption. I suppose there's always a greater fool out there somewhere, though...
Rampion
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May 28, 2013, 03:16:19 PM
 #1700

People are trying to sell their pre-orders on ebay, at a mark up. Luckily they are not having much success it seems.

Jeesh. That takes some gumption. I suppose there's always a greater fool out there somewhere, though...

Not always. At this point everyone who preorder BFL in 2013 is pretty much a bagholder.

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