Why are people scared of taxes?

[asdf]

I have always seen coercion to be quite necessary.

That's always been the opinion of the authoritarian.

I just don't see voluntary cooperation as compatible with human nature.

Perhaps because you perceive coercion as necessary?

I'll ignore the circular argument you're presenting, and ask you this. Why do you think people would cooperate as a whole if left to their own devices?

Why do you think a monopoly on force can instill virtue?

People, for the most part, respect property of others and trade freely. In the pursuit of profit they provide others with goods and services that they need. People cooperate and trade peacefully every day for mutual benefit, do you not see this? If you have a job and buy things, you're "cooperating". All the state does is interfere with and restrict voluntary trade with violence. If humans can't cooperate, then how can a government work?

It's not circular reasoning: You believe that coercion is necessary, therefore, to complement this belief you must also believe that cooperation is incompatible with human nature. He's saying the causality is backwards.

So what of all the scammers, especially here?

Yep, better give a monopoly on violence to an institution called government to steal everyones money to pay for protection against scammers.

What about the scammers in parliament, to whom we have given all the guns?

Just because we don't have a state initiating force against peaceful citizens doesn't mean we can't have protection services and defend our property. non sequitur. Besides, is the state protecting you from these scammers now? no.

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[CharlesPonzi]

I have always seen coercion to be quite necessary.

That's always been the opinion of the authoritarian.

I just don't see voluntary cooperation as compatible with human nature.

Perhaps because you perceive coercion as necessary?

I'll ignore the circular argument you're presenting, and ask you this. Why do you think people would cooperate as a whole if left to their own devices?

Why do you think a monopoly on force can instill virtue?

People, for the most part, respect property of others and trade freely. In the pursuit of profit they provide others with goods and services that they need. People cooperate and trade peacefully every day for mutual benefit, do you not see this? If you have a job and buy things, you're "cooperating". All the state does is interfere with and restrict voluntary trade with violence. If humans can't cooperate, then how can a government work?

It's not circular reasoning: You believe that coercion is necessary, therefore, to complement this belief you must also believe that cooperation is incompatible with human nature. He's saying the causality is backwards.

So what of all the scammers, especially here?

Yep, better give a monopoly on violence to an institution called government to steal everyones money to pay for protection against scammers.

What about the scammers in parliament, to whom we have given all the guns?

Just because we don't have a state initiating force against peaceful citizens doesn't mean we can't have protection services and defend our property. non sequitur. Besides, is the state protecting you from these scammers now? no.

If that is the case where are the protection services that get your bitcoins back from scammers ?

[Kontakt]

I have always seen coercion to be quite necessary.

That's always been the opinion of the authoritarian.

I just don't see voluntary cooperation as compatible with human nature.

Perhaps because you perceive coercion as necessary?

I'll ignore the circular argument you're presenting, and ask you this. Why do you think people would cooperate as a whole if left to their own devices?

Why do you think a monopoly on force can instill virtue?

People, for the most part, respect property of others and trade freely. In the pursuit of profit they provide others with goods and services that they need. People cooperate and trade peacefully every day for mutual benefit, do you not see this? If you have a job and buy things, you're "cooperating". All the state does is interfere with and restrict voluntary trade with violence. If humans can't cooperate, then how can a government work?

It's not circular reasoning: You believe that coercion is necessary, therefore, to complement this belief you must also believe that cooperation is incompatible with human nature. He's saying the causality is backwards.

So what of all the scammers, especially here?

Yep, better give a monopoly on violence to an institution called government to steal everyones money to pay for protection against scammers.

What about the scammers in parliament, to whom we have given all the guns?

Just because we don't have a state initiating force against peaceful citizens doesn't mean we can't have protection services and defend our property. non sequitur. Besides, is the state protecting you from these scammers now? no.

If that is the case where are the protection services that get your bitcoins back from scammers ?

Nonexistent, because bitcoins are your touted unregulated currency. The very reason you love them so much is why they are so easy to simply steal.

[asdf]

Yep, better give a monopoly on violence to an institution called government to steal everyones money to pay for protection against scammers.

What about the scammers in parliament, to whom we have given all the guns?

Just because we don't have a state initiating force against peaceful citizens doesn't mean we can't have protection services and defend our property. non sequitur. Besides, is the state protecting you from these scammers now? no.

If that is the case where are the protection services that get your bitcoins back from scammers ?

Yep, better give a monopoly on violence to an institution called government...

[asdf]

Because they consume 50% - 70% of your income?  

(...When you add them all together..)



 

Also, consider that the price of everything you pay for is already inflated by taxes that the business pays: staff, fuel, corporate tax, etc. The government is probably eating %90 of societies production. Not to mention the stagnation of economic growth that results. IMAGINE the prosperity if this burden was lifted! How many problems that the government "solves" would be irrelevant in such a wealthy environment. It would be like The Jetsons!

Someone said the corporations were too greedy...?

[asdf]

It's humanity's ego.  The cause of greed and coercion will always relate back to the ego.  As more people become self-aware of their ego and how their actions directly affect their lives and people around them, more people will chose to act out of love rather than ego.

People only act malicious or greedy because they think it'll help them get somewhere in life.  It's a big misconception that the best way to help yourself is to help yourself, when in reality, the best way to help yourself is to help others.  More people are catching on and we will soon reach a point when humanity disbands ego, entirely.

+1

The state is indeed humanities ego: Identifying with the collective. "We", "I", same thing, different scale. The state loves to promote nationalism; the idea that you are the state/nation, the glory of the state is your glory. That's why the Olympics exists. "We one 26 gold medals!".

[FreeMoney]

Hey scaredy-cat, why are you so afraid of giving me half your money huh? huh? huh? What are you afraid of? Wuss.

[sturle]

Also, consider that the price of everything you pay for is already inflated by taxes that the business pays: staff, fuel, corporate tax, etc. The government is probably eating %90 of societies production. Not to mention the stagnation of economic growth that results. IMAGINE the prosperity if this burden was lifted! How many problems that the government "solves" would be irrelevant in such a wealthy environment. It would be like The Jetsons!

Much of those taxes are spent on solving real problems to make commerce more efficient.  E.g. taxes on fuel which are spent on building roads and taking care of them.  How much production and trade would be left if they just closed the roads and cut the taxes on petrol?  Taxes on fuel is an effective and just way of making the users of the roads pay for them.

Taxes on air traffic are mostly spent on the terrorist organization TSA.  This *is* wasteful and very harmful, and a good example of not to do it.  Governments exists to make production and trade efficient, and countries that do this most effectively will prosper.

This is obviously from the USA.  An area where the the USA do extremely badly is healthcare.  In most of Europe people enjoy free healthcare paid by the government, run by the government.  In the USA healthcare is not free.  It is a complicated system of insurances, government programs and private hospitals.  Yet the U.S. government pays more per capita for healthcare than any other country in the world!  This shows that taxes can be the most effective way of paying and getting done.  Get rid of red tape and intermediates who take their cut, and it will turn out much cheaper for everyone.  Reduced taxes _and_ no costly health insurance.

And don't forget, even if 52% is eaten by taxes, 100% of the money will come out again.  The government isn't collecting the money in a large treasure chest and keeping it.  This was done by some kings in Europe back in the middle ages, to save up for the next war, but the practice got abolished.  Nowadays wars are paid for using credit cards.  To build a road they need building materials, machines and workers, who will again spend their money and contribute to economic growth.

[vampire]

Much of those taxes are spent on solving real problems to make commerce more efficient.  E.g. taxes on fuel which are spent on building roads and taking care of them.  How much production and trade would be left if they just closed the roads and cut the taxes on petrol?  Taxes on fuel is an effective and just way of making the users of the roads pay for them.

So why do I pay all other taxes, tolls for the bridges and highways?

Taxes on air traffic are mostly spent on the terrorist organization TSA.  This *is* wasteful and very harmful, and a good example of not to do it.  Governments exists to make production and trade efficient, and countries that do this most effectively will prosper.

There are a lot of other wasteful things countries do, take a look at the southern Europe.

This is obviously from the USA.  An area where the the USA do extremely badly is healthcare.  In most of Europe people enjoy free healthcare paid by the government, run by the government.  In the USA healthcare is not free.  It is a complicated system of insurances, government programs and private hospitals.  Yet the U.S. government pays more per capita for healthcare than any other country in the world!  This shows that taxes can be the most effective way of paying and getting done.  Get rid of red tape and intermediates who take their cut, and it will turn out much cheaper for everyone.  Reduced taxes _and_ no costly health insurance.

The usual debate, while I am not a fan of US system, the free systems have problems too. USA vs Canada: in US I can get a doctor next day, in Canada I have to wait months.

And don't forget, even if 52% is eaten by taxes, 100% of the money will come out again.  The government isn't collecting the money in a large treasure chest and keeping it.  This was done by some kings in Europe back in the middle ages, to save up for the next war, but the practice got abolished.  Nowadays wars are paid for using credit cards.  To build a road they need building materials, machines and workers, who will again spend their money and contribute to economic growth.

100%? Wow. You don't make a lot of sense. Read your own comment about TSA. Governments are wasteful, all of them. Some are less, some are more.

[sturle]

Much of those taxes are spent on solving real problems to make commerce more efficient.  E.g. taxes on fuel which are spent on building roads and taking care of them.  How much production and trade would be left if they just closed the roads and cut the taxes on petrol?  Taxes on fuel is an effective and just way of making the users of the roads pay for them.

So why do I pay all other taxes, tolls for the bridges and highways?

Because the fuel tax isn't enough.  Bridges and highways are very expensive.

Taxes on air traffic are mostly spent on the terrorist organization TSA.  This *is* wasteful and very harmful, and a good example of not to do it.  Governments exists to make production and trade efficient, and countries that do this most effectively will prosper.

There are a lot of other wasteful things countries do, take a look at the southern Europe.

A good example of what happens when the tax money are spent unwisely, and for most of them corruption and tax evasion is a major part of the problem.

This is obviously from the USA.  An area where the the USA do extremely badly is healthcare.  In most of Europe people enjoy free healthcare paid by the government, run by the government.  In the USA healthcare is not free.  It is a complicated system of insurances, government programs and private hospitals.  Yet the U.S. government pays more per capita for healthcare than any other country in the world!  This shows that taxes can be the most effective way of paying and getting done.  Get rid of red tape and intermediates who take their cut, and it will turn out much cheaper for everyone.  Reduced taxes _and_ no costly health insurance.

The usual debate, while I am not a fan of US system, the free systems have problems too. USA vs Canada: in US I can get a doctor next day, in Canada I have to wait months.

Wow!  I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it.  If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor.  Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system.  I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

And don't forget, even if 52% is eaten by taxes, 100% of the money will come out again.  The government isn't collecting the money in a large treasure chest and keeping it.  This was done by some kings in Europe back in the middle ages, to save up for the next war, but the practice got abolished.  Nowadays wars are paid for using credit cards.  To build a road they need building materials, machines and workers, who will again spend their money and contribute to economic growth.

100%? Wow. You don't make a lot of sense. Read your own comment about TSA. Governments are wasteful, all of them. Some are less, some are more.

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking.  Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work".  The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth.  Yes, 100%.

[myrkul]

100%? Wow. You don't make a lot of sense. Read your own comment about TSA. Governments are wasteful, all of them. Some are less, some are more.

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking.  Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work".  The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth.  Yes, 100%.

Yes, all the money does go back into the economy. but it goes back, by definition, in ways the market would not have done, left alone. For instance, warehouses full of scanners that never got installed.

[sturle]

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking.  Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work".  The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth.  Yes, 100%.

Yes, all the money does go back into the economy. but it goes back, by definition, in ways the market would not have done, left alone. For instance, warehouses full of scanners that never got installed.

The scanners do a much better job in the warehouses than they would do at airports.  By keeping them out of the way of travellers and paying for storage, it stimulates the economy rather than hindering it's development.  Of course there are better ways to spend the money, but buying the scanners and keeping them in warehouses is not half as bad as installing them at airports.

[bitvientiane]

So whether the government is robbing you depends on whether they have a legal claim on the money they are taking. Simply taking it by force is not enough.

I don't expect you to agree with me now, but is it any clearer where I am coming from?

From a personal perspective, the more of that expropriated property that is misappropriated by government for all kinds of corrupt and inappropriate purposes, the closer I am drawn to pure-anarchist thinking. Years ago, I would never have imagined considering anarchy potentially a good thing.

If I could somehow allocate my taxes to certain areas and exclude others (army, corn and other farming subsidies) I would feel better about paying them.

[myrkul]

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking.  Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work".  The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth.  Yes, 100%.

Yes, all the money does go back into the economy. but it goes back, by definition, in ways the market would not have done, left alone. For instance, warehouses full of scanners that never got installed.

The scanners do a much better job in the warehouses than they would do at airports.  By keeping them out of the way of travellers and paying for storage, it stimulates the economy rather than hindering it's development.  Of course there are better ways to spend the money, but buying the scanners and keeping them in warehouses is not half as bad as installing them at airports.

"Yes, I shot you in the foot, but think how much better off you are than if I shot you in the head."

Maybe, don't shoot him, at all?

[vampire]

Because the fuel tax isn't enough.  Bridges and highways are very expensive.

How do you know that they're expensive? May because the system is so not efficient that they have to charge so much.

In Europe, the price of gas is 2.5x higher than in USA, the drive from Barcelona to Monaco costs just 40EUR in tolls. I could drive from Miami to New York and still be under $40 in tolls.

A good example of what happens when the tax money are spent unwisely, and for most of them corruption and tax evasion is a major part of the problem.

Because governments spend unwisely, so why fund them in the first place.

Wow!  I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it.  If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor.  Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system.  I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Because you never needed a specialist, Canada isn't the only country. UK and France have exactly the same issue. Here is a real example, a friend of mine had to fly to US to have an orthopedic surgery. Why? Because it was a 3 months wait in France.

My gf's mom is still waiting to see a specialist in Canada, a four months wait. She hates the system and wants the US system instead.

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking.  Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work".  The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth.  Yes, 100%.

Except the money that never end up back, they get stolen.

[vampire]

Wow!  I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it.  If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor.  Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system.  I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Your country produces what? 50% of the exports is just oil. And you keep refusing to join the EU for many years.

[matmar10]

“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.” —Winston Churchill

“The difference between a welfare state and a totalitarian state is a matter of time.” —Ayn Rand

[sturle]

Wow!  I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it.  If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor.  Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system.  I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Your country produces what? 50% of the exports is just oil.

Income from oil and gas exports goes straight to a fund for future pensions, and only 4% of it is spent every year by average.  Depends if the economy needs it or not.  Next year it will be 3%, I think.  The economy can't take more due to almost 0 unemployment rate and more than 4% increase in wages every year for the last ten years at least.  More money into this economy will only induce inflation while companies bid higher and higher wages for skilled workers.

Other than that Norway exports finished goods of various kinds (e.g. weapons and furniture), fish, metals, electricity, machinery, and chemical products.  And services, mainly shipping.

And you keep refusing to join the EU for many years.

EU membership is not compulsory.

[fivemileshigh]

I don't know why ppl are always scared of paying taxes.

I'd say ppl are scared that if they don't pay the taxes they will get killed. It seems like a perfectly reasonable fear.

[vampire]

Wow!  I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it.  If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor.  Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system.  I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Your country produces what? 50% of the exports is just oil.

Income from oil and gas exports goes straight to a fund for future pensions, and only 4% of it is spent every year by average.  Depends if the economy needs it or not.  Next year it will be 3%, I think.  The economy can't take more due to almost 0 unemployment rate and more than 4% increase in wages every year for the last ten years at least.  More money into this economy will only induce inflation while companies bid higher and higher wages for skilled workers.

Other than that Norway exports finished goods of various kinds (e.g. weapons and furniture), fish, metals, electricity, machinery, and chemical products.  And services, mainly shipping.

And you keep refusing to join the EU for many years.

EU membership is not compulsory.

An oil rich country with a population of few millions is hardly a good example, Norway is number one country in HDI index. Mostly because of the oil and all the industry around it. The second country is Australia, and guess what they're a major exporter of commodities...