Why are people scared of taxes?

[Kontakt]

Morality is not black and white.
Would you shoot a man in the face to avoid spending life in prison?

Attempting (and possibly accomplishing) murder does not seem like a good way to avoid imprisonment. So the answer to that would be no. It would do me no good. Now, would I shoot someone in the face to prevent him from killing me? In a heartbeat.

So you would not fight the draft?

Imprisonment ≠ conscription. But no, I would not "fight" the draft. I would avoid it. I'm lucky enough to have aged my way out of consideration, but even if I weren't too old (to say nothing of medically unfit), I would do my utmost to avoid the draft, including straight-up desertion, but I would not commit murder to avoid conscription. Seems like a good way to get murdered in return. I've become rather habituated to breathing, I'd like to continue that.

So, about AnCap? Any thoughts?

I meant shoot people as in join the military.

I'll fully analyze anacap later. First impression is wide-eyed capitalists with way too much faith in free market economics.

[1714523063]

1714523063

[1714523063]

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[myrkul]

I meant shoot people as in join the military.

Ahh. No, as stated, I would not join the military voluntarily, and if conscripted, would desert. However, if offered a position at a private defense firm (such as those which would exist in an AnCap society), I would accept.

[sturle]

I understand how it would be difficult to answer these questions from your perspective.

Those are trick questions.  You are using them to force me to give answers to support your wicked religion, even if the questions themselves bear no relevance to reality.  The answer would be just as irrelevant as the questions.  The situation you describe is impossible, and you know this very well.  Would it be immoral to divide by zero?

Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?

I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples.  Please keep to yourself your obscene fantasies and obscure laws from countries which I have chosen not to live in or even travel to.

[myrkul]

Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?

I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?

[bb113]

Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?

I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples.  

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?

Also the laws suggesting corporations must place profit maximization over anything else. Most of these things end up being done with one or two layers of abstraction because it confuses people. To clarify, I think this is natural selection at work, not some plan.

[sturle]

Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?

I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?

When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.

[myrkul]

Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?

I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?

When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.

So what you're saying is, basically, this?

I wasn't asking about law. I was asking about morality. Is taking money by force or intimidation moral, or immoral? It cannot be both.

[Richy_T]

2. Laws are created by people, and cannot violate the constitution.

Admit it. You just wrote that for the lulz.

[sturle]

Let me ask you an easier question to answer: If an immoral action is legally required, does that confer morality?

I know of no real world example of an immoral action which is legally required of me.  Feel free to find real world examples. 

Taking money by force or intimidation is immoral, yes or no?

When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!  It would be immoral not to pay in the first place.

So what you're saying is, basically, this?

Haha, no.

I wasn't asking about law. I was asking about morality. Is taking money by force or intimidation moral, or immoral? It cannot be both.

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

Could you please just tell me what you try to achieve by repeating questions?  You keep asking the same over and over, until you get an answer you can quote out of context and change the meaning of to prove something for yourself.

[myrkul]

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

[sturle]

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

No, threatening to kill someone is immoral.  And illegal.  Threatening to kill someone can get you in prison for up to three years in my country.

[Richy_T]

If something can be both moral in immoral at the same time, that's pretty much the end of this. Since if you say X is immoral, that means nothing. It's a null statement.

[myrkul]

Would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

No, threatening to kill someone is immoral. 

Awesome, thank you for a straight answer for a change.

Now, how do you reconcile that with this statement?

When required by law, and the force or intimidation used is within limits described by law?  No, of course not!

If threatening to kill someone is immoral, why is using that threat moral when "required by law"?

And (here's a real-world - if defunct - example) would being required to allow your wife to be raped by the local lord on the first night of your marriage also be moral, if required by law?

[sturle]

If something can be both moral in immoral at the same time, that's pretty much the end of this. Since if you say X is immoral, that means nothing. It's a null statement.

I still don't get the point of this discussion.  The tax discussion has diverged into some pointless question asking about morality, like it had anything to do with it.  Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.  It is the foundation of human civilization.  No less.  For good and evil.  Without there would either be no nations or no freedom (North Korea is the only completely tax free nation I know of).

[myrkul]

Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.

This is a statement that taxation is moral. That is the point of this discussion.

[TheButterZone]

The tax discussion has diverged into some pointless question asking about morality, like it had anything to do with it.  Countries have the right to tax their land and inhabitants.  It is the foundation of human civilization.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"The three aims of the tyrant are, one, the humiliation of his subjects; he knows that a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody; two, the creation of mistrust among them; for a tyrant is not to be overthrown until men begin to have confidence in one another -- and this is the reason why tyrants are at war with the good; they are under the idea that their power is endangered by them, not only because they will not be ruled despotically, but also because they are too loyal to one another and to other men, and do not inform against one another or against other men -- three, the tyrant desires that all his subjects shall be incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny if they are powerless."

-- Aristotle

[Kontakt]

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

[myrkul]

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

And if you don't want to go?

[TheButterZone]

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

They have exempted themselves from all "gun control" laws and have all lethal weapons imaginable at their disposal, and use them with impunity (which means never worrying about being imprisoned, let alone prosecuted, for murder, civil rights violations resulting in death). "Not at all", my ass.

[Kontakt]

Of course it can.  It depends entirely on the situation.  If I kill you and steal your wallet, it would be immoral.  If you live in my house and refuse to pay the rent for one year, threatening to throw you out unless you pay the rent is moral.  Do you think both have the same moral value?

If they were both taking money by force or intimidation, they would. But they're not. To make them the same, replace "threatening to throw you out" with "threatening to kill you." So, would it be moral to threaten someone with death for failure to pay rent?

Is the government threatening to kill you? Not at all. If you fail to pay taxes, they will politely ask you to pay up, and if you don't, they will imprison you.

They have exempted themselves from all "gun control" laws and have all lethal weapons imaginable at their disposal, and use them with impunity. "Not at all" my ass.

So you're in favor of hobbling the military?
I'm against military expansion, but I want anyone out there in the field to have anything that they need to keep themselves alive.
If they're willing to die for their country, they deserve that much.

Also, the government has smallpox. Do they threaten to use that on you if you fail to pay taxes?