Why are people scared of taxes?

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it. 

There's this thing called charity and trust funds you know an invention by evil capitalists

Yeah and I can see that there doing a fantastic job at stopping world poverty. They work really well huh, people are just so charitable........... 

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[myrkul]

No, the government does not point a gun at my head if I don't pay taxes. I go to court, then I would go to jail. So it is not like how you are trying to describe it. You are sensationalising what happens to try and steer away from the main point here, which is:

You do not want to pay taxes because you are greedy.

What if I don't want to go to court? What if I don't want to go to jail?

Oh, this is pointless. What year of school are you in right now?

I haven't been to school for a number of years, thanks for being condescending though.

You don't want to go to court? The police come and find me and take me, or your on the run. I'm not from America so the threat of guns is not really an issue, still, I don't like jail.

Really? Police in (I assume) England don't ever carry weapons? No weapons whatsoever? Does being beaten with a truncheon make it more OK than being shot?

You claim taxes are wrong, because its stealing.

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it.

I don't want more than I have, I just want to keep what I have. And as I have pointed out several times, as have others, charities do those things you want taxes to do, without stealing their funding. (FYI, The US is one of the most charitable nations on the planet - and you call us greedy.)

I didn't reply to them because they are totally irrelevant to what i'm saying. Your talk of international charities is a strawman,  no thanks.

On the contrary, they're very relevant. You claim you want to help society. Charities do that. And they do it without stealing from people.

Explain to me why robbery is so bad?

So, you're in favor, completely, of robbery? Even if I'm just going to buy an 8-ball?

Self ownership? Sounds like an off shoot of some Rand bullshit.

So, Who owns you?

[Lethn]

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it. 

There's this thing called charity and trust funds you know an invention by evil capitalists

Yeah and I can see that there doing a fantastic job at stopping world poverty. They work really well huh, people are just so charitable........... 

One could argue the exact same thing with taxes.

[Richy_T]

I haven't been to school for a number of years, thanks for being condescending though.

My apologies. Blind belief in the righteousness of government is often, but not always, a sign of those who have not yet met the real world.

You don't want to go to court? The police come and find me and take me, or your on the run. I'm not from America so the threat of guns is not really an issue, still, I don't like jail.

Are you sure? You might be surprised. I don't want to make any assumptions on your location. FWIW, I'm not from America either, I just choose to live here.

You should try to think more globally, the world isn't just America.

I do. My own home country has shot one person (to death) for carrying a table leg and another (well beyond "to death") for wearing a bulky jacket and having darkish skin in recent memory.

Edit: Though let's forget the guns for a second. The issue is the initiation of force, not the method used to do so.

You claim taxes are wrong, because its stealing.

Not stealing, robbery. Though tricks like "PAYE" are perhaps more akin to stealing.

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it.

I would settle for a tax system that helped those who needed it. I will still argue about the right and wrong of using force to part people from their earned wealth though.

[Richy_T]

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it. 

There's this thing called charity and trust funds you know an invention by evil capitalists

Yeah and I can see that there doing a fantastic job at stopping world poverty. They work really well huh, people are just so charitable........... 

Yeah, the people get together, raise a bunch of money, send the food and money to the country that has need and then the government there steals the food and money. Live-aid is a prime example.

Not that this is a reason not to engage in charity, just another example of governments using force to f*ck things up.

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

How on earth do you manage all those quotes? Fair play.

In my country, unless you are being an idiot, your not going to get beaten by the police when being taken away for tax avoidance, that just simply isn't going to happen unless you decide to get all aggro. Which isn't going to happen because I know why they're taking me away, tax avoidance, im breaking the law, I have been caught, I am going to jail, why add a beating into the equation?

Again you like to sensationalise to try and get your point across, a bit like fox news I might add.

As for keeping what you have, no problem. But is it the tax which is the problem? or your life style? Ever stop to think about the amount of shit you consume? personally? or as a house hold? Do you ever think where this stuff comes from? and ends up? Do you think this stuff just magically appears and comes from a never ending supply of stuff? Just food for thought, back on topic; if your taxes were not being wasted away but infact invested into your country, be it health care, welfare, better roads, state owned energy etc do you not think that could be of no possible benefit?Do you like seeing homeless people?

 I know, im talking totally theoretical here, which is what I have been saying all along, the current system is wrong for sure, but claiming that no tax is the answer is, in my opinion, wrong.

You then go on to talk about the USA being a charitable nation? You got to be fucking kidding me right? The western world goes and pillages and plunders the rest of the world, takes all the resources, makes huge amounts of money of it, gives a fucking minuscule fraction of it to 'charities' (who for the most part are in-effective money pits where the cash never seems to weigh as much by the time it reaches some poor kid in the 3rd world.) and you have the audacity to sit on the internet chirping about the USA being the most charitable nation on earth???

Now before you get all patriotic on me, I know its not just the US of A, I know the Euro's are just as bad and the Russians, but thats not the fucking point is it.

The charity point I think ive just explained where I stand there, you cool with world starvation I take it? I mean, these charities that all us charitable western folks have set up will save the world oh yea. Who needs taxes, the charities will feed the poor of course! Except as we can see, it doesnt work, does it?

As for the robbery thing, which we have been over once, I told you were I stood, and il take the 8 ball part as a troll? or you really have a memory of a gold fish lol? I guess you thought robin hood was a baddie too?

Who owns me?

I own me, anyone who wants a piece can come and get it haha.

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

I haven't been to school for a number of years, thanks for being condescending though.

My apologies. Blind belief in the righteousness of government is often, but not always, a sign of those who have not yet met the real world.

You don't want to go to court? The police come and find me and take me, or your on the run. I'm not from America so the threat of guns is not really an issue, still, I don't like jail.

Are you sure? You might be surprised. I don't want to make any assumptions on your location. FWIW, I'm not from America either, I just choose to live here.

You should try to think more globally, the world isn't just America.

I do. My own home country has shot one person (to death) for carrying a table leg and another (well beyond "to death") for wearing a bulky jacket and having darkish skin in recent memory.

Edit: Though let's forget the guns for a second. The issue is the initiation of force, not the method used to do so.

You claim taxes are wrong, because its stealing.

Not stealing, robbery. Though tricks like "PAYE" are perhaps more akin to stealing.

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it.

I would settle for a tax system that helped those who needed it. I will still argue about the right and wrong of using force to part people from their earned wealth though.

Richy let me assure you that I have no faith in any governments, at all. The point I have been trying to make is that tax, itself, CAN be a good thing. Im not saying today, that the system we have is good, im saying the complete opposite, its utterly useless but that does not mean that tax is useless.

As for forcing people, sure i'm all for personal freedoms but sometimes people need a nudge in the right direction and if you have a taxation system which operated fairly and spent the money wisely, I personally am ok with it.

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

I claim your talking horse shit and the only reason you are bothering to spout it is because your greedy, you want more than you have. If you weren't, you'd see the potential benefit of a tax system which helps those who need it. 

There's this thing called charity and trust funds you know an invention by evil capitalists

Yeah and I can see that there doing a fantastic job at stopping world poverty. They work really well huh, people are just so charitable........... 

One could argue the exact same thing with taxes.

You could for sure... I think I am just really bad at explaining what I mean. Everything I have said which would hint I am a tax advocate is being stated on the theoretical assumption that the taxes are being spent on the 'right' things.

Please please don't think I like any of the systems currently in place, its a travesty.

[Lethn]

you damn communist!

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

you damn communist!

Haha I dont know what I am, just very angry lol!

[myrkul]

How on earth do you manage all those quotes? Fair play.

Copy/paste. It's quite simple, really. You do know how to use this device that you're accessing this site with, right?

Code:

[/quote]

[quote author=Jimmy Chang(y) link=topic=115907.msg1311007#msg1311007 date=1351784679]

In my country, unless you are being an idiot, your not going to get beaten by the police when being taken away for tax avoidance, that just simply isn't going to happen unless you decide to get all aggro. Which isn't going to happen because I know why they're taking me away, tax avoidance, im breaking the law, I have been caught, I am going to jail, why add a beating into the equation?

So they've got you cowed before they even open the door. Who is less the slave, the one who bows and scrapes and says "yes, massah," or the one who must be whipped to achieve compliance?

As for keeping what you have, no problem. But is it the tax which is the problem? or your life style? Ever stop to think about the amount of shit you consume? personally? or as a house hold? Do you ever think where this stuff comes from? and ends up? Do you think this stuff just magically appears and comes from a never ending supply of stuff? Just food for thought, back on topic; if your taxes were not being wasted away but infact invested into your country, be it health care, welfare, better roads, state owned energy etc do you not think that could be of no possible benefit?Do you like seeing homeless people?

I'm quite aware of where my consumer goods come from. If money were not stolen from the people and used to destroy capital goods elsewhere, I imagine the economy would boom, for the simple fact that the money doesn't get wasted, and thus is re-invested in the local economy.

I know, im talking totally theoretical here, which is what I have been saying all along, the current system is wrong for sure, but claiming that no tax is the answer is, in my opinion, wrong.

What's so wrong about suggesting that voluntarily paying for the things you want to happen to happen is better than having your money stolen from you to pay for things you would never agree to?

You then go on to talk about the USA being a charitable nation? You got to be fucking kidding me right? The western world goes and pillages and plunders the rest of the world, takes all the resources, makes huge amounts of money of it, gives a fucking minuscule fraction of it to 'charities' (who for the most part are in-effective money pits where the cash never seems to weigh as much by the time it reaches some poor kid in the 3rd world.) and you have the audacity to sit on the internet chirping about the USA being the most charitable nation on earth???

Have a browse: https://www.charitynavigator.org/

Now before you get all patriotic on me, I know its not just the US of A, I know the Euro's are just as bad and the Russians, but thats not the fucking point is it.

The charity point I think ive just explained where I stand there, you cool with world starvation I take it? I mean, these charities that all us charitable western folks have set up will save the world oh yea. Who needs taxes, the charities will feed the poor of course! Except as we can see, it doesnt work, does it?

I wonder why....

Yeah, the people get together, raise a bunch of money, send the food and money to the country that has need and then the government there steals the food and money. Live-aid is a prime example.

As for the robbery thing, which we have been over once, I told you were I stood, and il take the 8 ball part as a troll? or you really have a memory of a gold fish lol? I guess you thought robin hood was a baddie too?

I love how tax advocates keep pointing to Robin Hood as an example. Idiots. Robin Hood was taking the taxed money back from the government and returning it the people.

Who owns me?

I own me, anyone who wants a piece can come and get it haha.

I thought self-ownership was "bullshit"?

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

How on earth do you manage all those quotes? Fair play.

Copy/paste. It's quite simple, really. You do know how to use this device that you're accessing this site with, right?

Code:

[/quote]

[quote author=Jimmy Chang(y) link=topic=115907.msg1311007#msg1311007 date=1351784679]

In my country, unless you are being an idiot, your not going to get beaten by the police when being taken away for tax avoidance, that just simply isn't going to happen unless you decide to get all aggro. Which isn't going to happen because I know why they're taking me away, tax avoidance, im breaking the law, I have been caught, I am going to jail, why add a beating into the equation?

So they've got you cowed before they even open the door. Who is less the slave, the one who bows and scrapes and says "yes, massah," or the one who must be whipped to achieve compliance?

As for keeping what you have, no problem. But is it the tax which is the problem? or your life style? Ever stop to think about the amount of shit you consume? personally? or as a house hold? Do you ever think where this stuff comes from? and ends up? Do you think this stuff just magically appears and comes from a never ending supply of stuff? Just food for thought, back on topic; if your taxes were not being wasted away but infact invested into your country, be it health care, welfare, better roads, state owned energy etc do you not think that could be of no possible benefit?Do you like seeing homeless people?

I'm quite aware of where my consumer goods come from. If money were not stolen from the people and used to destroy capital goods elsewhere, I imagine the economy would boom, for the simple fact that the money doesn't get wasted, and thus is re-invested in the local economy.

I know, im talking totally theoretical here, which is what I have been saying all along, the current system is wrong for sure, but claiming that no tax is the answer is, in my opinion, wrong.

What's so wrong about suggesting that voluntarily paying for the things you want to happen to happen is better than having your money stolen from you to pay for things you would never agree to?

You then go on to talk about the USA being a charitable nation? You got to be fucking kidding me right? The western world goes and pillages and plunders the rest of the world, takes all the resources, makes huge amounts of money of it, gives a fucking minuscule fraction of it to 'charities' (who for the most part are in-effective money pits where the cash never seems to weigh as much by the time it reaches some poor kid in the 3rd world.) and you have the audacity to sit on the internet chirping about the USA being the most charitable nation on earth???

Have a browse: https://www.charitynavigator.org/

Now before you get all patriotic on me, I know its not just the US of A, I know the Euro's are just as bad and the Russians, but thats not the fucking point is it.

The charity point I think ive just explained where I stand there, you cool with world starvation I take it? I mean, these charities that all us charitable western folks have set up will save the world oh yea. Who needs taxes, the charities will feed the poor of course! Except as we can see, it doesnt work, does it?

I wonder why....

Yeah, the people get together, raise a bunch of money, send the food and money to the country that has need and then the government there steals the food and money. Live-aid is a prime example.

As for the robbery thing, which we have been over once, I told you were I stood, and il take the 8 ball part as a troll? or you really have a memory of a gold fish lol? I guess you thought robin hood was a baddie too?

I love how tax advocates keep pointing to Robin Hood as an example. Idiots. Robin Hood was taking the taxed money back from the government and returning it the people.

Who owns me?

I own me, anyone who wants a piece can come and get it haha.

I thought self-ownership was "bullshit"?

Meow, il take your continued avoidance of my questions and bitchy tone as you dont have an answer me ya greedy git, this thread is eating up too much of my time, I think ive explained my point, we'll agree to disagree before this turns into petty insults shall we?

PS. The link for charity navigator indicates that almost all that I have said, has gone well over your head. Keep living in your little bubble.

[myrkul]

Meow, il take your continued avoidance of my questions and bitchy tone as you dont have an answer me ya greedy git, this thread is eating up too much of my time, I think ive explained my point, we'll agree to disagree before this turns into petty insults shall we?

I love how you quote the post where I answered all your questions (admittedly, one or two with even tougher questions) and then say I avoided them. Nice try.

Do us all a favor: actually fucking read Robin Hood.

PS. The actions which you ascribed to "The western world" are all done by their governments. The people are very charitable.

[Richy_T]

How on earth do you manage all those quotes? Fair play.

ctrl-c, ctrl-v

In my country, unless you are being an idiot, your not going to get beaten by the police when being taken away for tax avoidance, that just simply isn't going to happen unless you decide to get all aggro. Which isn't going to happen because I know why they're taking me away, tax avoidance, im breaking the law, I have been caught, I am going to jail, why add a beating into the equation?

Again you like to sensationalise to try and get your point across, a bit like fox news I might add.

I pay my taxes too. But it's all backed by threat of force. Just because the rapist doesn't actually have to stab you, doesn't make it not rape.

As for keeping what you have, no problem. But is it the tax which is the problem? or your life style? Ever stop to think about the amount of shit you consume? personally? or as a house hold? Do you ever think where this stuff comes from? and ends up? Do you think this stuff just magically appears and comes from a never ending supply of stuff? Just food for thought, back on topic; if your taxes were not being wasted away but infact invested into your country, be it health care, welfare, better roads, state owned energy etc do you not think that could be of no possible benefit?Do you like seeing homeless people?

I have a modest life style. After 20 years out in the world, I'm just starting to get ahead and the hardships that taxes impose on the hardworking are very palpable to me. They put a real cramp on what a person can achieve and contribute to "society" quite apart from the whole force thing. They are taken from the productive and given in somewhat equal measures to the rich and connected and the poor and shiftless. A very small proportion ever actually makes it to the needy and deserving. A very small portion.

And the worst thing? When times are hard, I can make my car last another year, I can take vacation here instead of there. I can eat chicken and not steak but can I cut back on the taxes I pay on the money I earn? Can I hell.

 I know, im talking totally theoretical here, which is what I have been saying all along, the current system is wrong for sure, but claiming that no tax is the answer is, in my opinion, wrong.

And yet you give no justification other than "It's greedy to keep what you have" and "Because I say so".

You then go on to talk about the USA being a charitable nation? You got to be fucking kidding me right? The western world goes and pillages and plunders the rest of the world, takes all the resources, makes huge amounts of money of it, gives a fucking minuscule fraction of it to 'charities' (who for the most part are in-effective money pits where the cash never seems to weigh as much by the time it reaches some poor kid in the 3rd world.) and you have the audacity to sit on the internet chirping about the USA being the most charitable nation on earth???

Are we seeing maybe an inkling of cognitive dissonance here? That plundering army is funded by the taxes you feel are so essential. I believe myrkul was talking about private charity in any case. What the government dishes out to other countries does not truthfully qualify as charity.

The charity point I think ive just explained where I stand there, you cool with world starvation I take it? I mean, these charities that all us charitable western folks have set up will save the world oh yea. Who needs taxes, the charities will feed the poor of course! Except as we can see, it doesnt work, does it?

It doesn't really work however it gets there, largely due to corrupt governments in the receiving countries. At least private charities actually have some semblance of interest in seeing the aid gets where it needs to go. Government aid just tends to be a bribe to rich and powerful rulers. Just look at the record.

As for the robbery thing, which we have been over once, I told you were I stood, and il take the 8 ball part as a troll? or you really have a memory of a gold fish lol? I guess you thought robin hood was a baddie too?

Current theory is that the real Robin Hood was a thug who took from the rich and... took from the poor too and kept it for himself.

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

Meow, il take your continued avoidance of my questions and bitchy tone as you dont have an answer me ya greedy git, this thread is eating up too much of my time, I think ive explained my point, we'll agree to disagree before this turns into petty insults shall we?

I love how you quote the post where I answered all your questions (admittedly, one or two with even tougher questions) and then say I avoided them. Nice try.

Do us all a favor: actually fucking read Robin Hood.

Ah see and there it is. Bitchy Mc Bitching

You see, you did avoid my questions, but like I said earlier, you have the memory of a gold fish my friend. Some real tough questions there too bud, but im afraid as I said earlier too, my time is being eaten up by a forum thread, on the internet, I have more pressing matters than to shoot the shit with you virtually, Sorry to disappoint. I tell you what, il come back to it when I have time? Please try to be civil, even though im sweary its not aimed at you, atleast not in an offensive manner. Pea's

[myrkul]

As for the robbery thing, which we have been over once, I told you were I stood, and il take the 8 ball part as a troll? or you really have a memory of a gold fish lol? I guess you thought robin hood was a baddie too?

Current theory is that the real Robin Hood was a thug who took from the rich and... took from the poor too and kept it for himself.

But that's the funniest part. He (and others like him) are misrepresenting the myth.

[myrkul]

Meow, il take your continued avoidance of my questions and bitchy tone as you dont have an answer me ya greedy git, this thread is eating up too much of my time, I think ive explained my point, we'll agree to disagree before this turns into petty insults shall we?

I love how you quote the post where I answered all your questions (admittedly, one or two with even tougher questions) and then say I avoided them. Nice try.

You see, you did avoid my questions,

Working on the theory that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes a truth?

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

Meow, il take your continued avoidance of my questions and bitchy tone as you dont have an answer me ya greedy git, this thread is eating up too much of my time, I think ive explained my point, we'll agree to disagree before this turns into petty insults shall we?

PS. The actions which you ascribed to "The western world" are all done by their governments. The people are very charitable.

Last one I promise;

Your putting words some what in my mouth, this is what I was saying about what I have said going way over your head. Il try once more;

1. I do not in anyway, support any government system in the world today, as far I can see we're in the shit.
2. I do not in anyway believe the current state of democracy to be 'good'.
3. I do not in anyway believe the taxation system in any country (that I know of) to be fair or effective.
4. I do not in anyway believe that the money from taxes collected today are spent 'well'
5. The only point I am trying to make, is that tax itself is not the problem, the governments are.

Now I know your going to disagree with number 5, but rather than focusing in on that, read everything else I have said. I agree with a lot of what yourself and Richy are saying.

However, the part about greed I was talking about comes down to a theoretical world where the taxes are being used for good, your life would be totally different, think of the money given to bankers, the military industrial complex etc. Even a fraction of that money could provide a huge array of public services. In an example like this, I can only see the possible answer for not being in favour of it as greed.

Why would tax be a bad thing when it can so easily be used for the benefit of society? Again all theoretical as the world we live in today is far from what I describe above.

It would be great if everyone was charitable enough for there to be no need for taxes, but that just simply isn't going to happen. We cant even feed the world through charity, never mind providing infrastructure, health care or what ever else the people need.

[Jimmy Chang(y)]

As for the robbery thing, which we have been over once, I told you were I stood, and il take the 8 ball part as a troll? or you really have a memory of a gold fish lol? I guess you thought robin hood was a baddie too?

Current theory is that the real Robin Hood was a thug who took from the rich and... took from the poor too and kept it for himself.

But that's the funniest part. He (and others like him) are misrepresenting the myth.

Gah it was a moot point that I made fairly light heartedly but again way over your heads huh?

Im pretty sure Robin Hood is a myth, perhaps based on factual events but not much more than that. But way to take the time to get stuck into that one 

Yes I know I said I was leaving...

[Richy_T]

Now I know your going to disagree with number 5, but rather than focusing in on that, read everything else I have said. I agree with a lot of what yourself and Richy are saying.

And once I agreed with a lot of what you're saying too.

So there's hope for you yet

Here's an important thing to consider when it comes to taxes and "good government"



The sentiment always seems to be "Everything will be OK if we can just get the right people in charge *this time*". There are no "right people"