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Author Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum  (Read 68182 times)
crazyates
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August 17, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
 #781

Why wasn't this information in the ordering process?

Some obscure forum post, not even an official forum for Bfl decides I might miss out on maximum profitability.
And now, behind the scenes it is decided that 'special' people get to kill the Bitcoin difficulty while I wait!

I ordered ignoring all this anti Bfl Bullshit. Now I feel like i have been conned.

So you were happy as long as you thought there was a chance you could get your rig before (or at the same time as) everybody else, and mine the shit out of it before the difficulty went up. Now you're afraid that's not going to happen, and you're not happy, and you're blaming BFL.

Well sorry, but that's the way it rolls. I would love to get my Single on the first day of shipments, but there are 2000 orders before me cuz I didn't have the funds on day 1.

You are still getting the same product that you ordered, no matter whether it ships on day 1 or not. Sure it would be more profitable if you got yours first, but thats impossible to do for everyone.

So i should subsidise people that couldn't afford to order at the start?

Yes, I ordered asap to get in early. That is the way Bitcoin mining works. Early adopters get rewarded.
I even paid them more than the cost of the items to make sure my wire went through.

If you had the money earlier and ordered wouldn't you agree?

I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said. However, early adopters are being rewarded - New customers who ordered first get 1/3 of the first orders, guaranteed. Existing customers who ordered first get another 1/3 of the first orders, guaranteed. And those who ordered in the first month get a chance at being in the last 1/3 of the first shipment - NOT a guarantee.

AFAIK, the 1/3 lotto only stands for the first batch of shipments, and only counts for those who ordered within the first month. After that it will be business as normal, fulfilling order numbers as they come.

It seems to me that while you prolly ordered early, you're concerned that your spot in the preorder list might not make it in the first batch of shipments, and you think "your spot" is being given to someone who ordered much later. But we don't know how big the first shipment will be. 200? 500? 1000? You might make it, you might not, but you have a shot at being in the lotto 1/3 even if you don't.

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August 17, 2012, 10:13:01 PM
 #782

Then have a media day and allow anyone that wants to visit the lab to see the units in action to do so.  Don't ship units out to hand chosen shills people so they can rape the difficulty all in the name of proving BFL isn't lying (again).

I think this is a great idea and I would love to do this instead, but then we'll get complaints that somehow we gamed the demo and if we really wanted to prove it, we should have sent the units out to people so they could test it any way they want, instead of with our canned "media" demo that is using a Cray XMP backend to produce the results over an encrypted cellular network, and the extra power required is beamed in via a cold fusion powered infrared laser.

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Or just pick out "proven" community members and invite them to the BFL lab....

Just give the community anything to trust in!


Not that "We have something that can hash very fast and we are taking money for preorder now...... aww u want proof .... go to hell or trust us ....radiosilence ...." crap  BFL is doing right now?


Why not showing us (the community) some details about the new Product, like you did with the FPGA singles?

Again, a fine idea, but again we'll get complaints that we rigged the demo somehow.  I'm not sure about the radio silence thing, since there's nothing that hasn't already been said available to communicate.  What details would you like to know?

Quote
I am confused as to why you NEED to have people vett and verify that the units exist and do what they are supposed to do?  Why not just let the first shipment tell everyone that?  Do you expect a huge wait time between the time when you have a handful of units that you could ship out to high profile individuals vs when the first large shipment will go out?  Personally, I don't think you need to prove anything.  Your FPGA singles have already proven that you can produce a good mining product.

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty.  We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage.  I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone.  We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam.  Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam. 

Quote
That's exactly my contention as well.  As long as they have a backlog of product, they don't need to prove anything to anyone.  Focus on shipping out the backlog, THEN work on convincing the skeptics (which they won't need to at that point, since the shipment of the backlog would have proven everything they can prove).

Very true, we don't NEED to do this, we are trying to do this as part of an effort to further the bitcoin community and provide as much openness as we can under the constraints of actually, you know, running a business instead of a charity project.

Quote
Why wasn't this information in the ordering process?

Some obscure forum post, not even an official forum for Bfl decides I might miss out on maximum profitability.
And now, behind the scenes it is decided that 'special' people get to kill the Bitcoin difficulty while I wait!

I ordered ignoring all this anti Bfl Bullshit. Now I feel like i have been conned.

What information?  When did you order?  Nothing has been decided behind the scenes, it's all been out in the open.  If you had questions, did you ask?  If you ordered early, then you're likely in the first 2/3, so what is your complaint, exactly?  If you ordered late, again, what is your complaint?  Do you expect to get an iPhone 5 on launch day if you didn't pre-order?  In either case, send me a PM with your order number and/or full name and I can get you a refund ASAP and I apologize for any confusion in the order.  We will gladly refund 100% of your money.

Quote
AFAIK, the 1/3 lotto only stands for the first batch of shipments, and only counts for those who ordered within the first month. After that it will be business as normal, fulfilling order numbers as they come.

Exactly.  The 1/3 plan was decided on before I came aboard.  All the plans seemed to have unhappy people, and this plan seems to be the best fit (as decided by the community) to have the least amount of unhappy people as possible.  As it stands now, it seems like you have a minimum of a 66% chance of being in the first batch, depending on when you ordered.  If it was exceptionally early, then you have a nearly 100% chance.  Those are dang good odds.

Now, back to the random 1/3.  Does anyone have suggestions on how best to use the blockchain to determine the lotto results?  I have several ideas, but I'm sure the giant brain of bitcoin can come up with a more creative method than I can on my own.
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August 17, 2012, 10:24:44 PM
 #783

Fair enough Josh, thanks for taking the time to respond with an explanation.  Smiley  I don't have a problem with BFL sending out test units at all - it just seemed unnecessary to me, but it certainly wouldn't hurt anything (other than people clamoring to try and be a tester, lol).
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August 17, 2012, 10:34:17 PM
 #784

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty.  We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage.  I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone.  We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam.  Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

If this is just the Jalapeno now, it doesn't sound too bad. Apologies if you did say Jalapeno only. It's not quite the difficulty destroyer as the other products claim to be!

What information?  When did you order?  Nothing has been decided behind the scenes, it's all been out in the open.  If you had questions, did you ask?  If you ordered early, then you're likely in the first 2/3, so what is your complaint, exactly?  If you ordered late, again, what is your complaint?  Do you expect to get an iPhone 5 on launch day if you didn't pre-order?  In either case, send me a PM with your order number and/or full name and I can get you a refund ASAP and I apologize for any confusion in the order.  We will gladly refund 100% of your money.

What information? That was my question! :p Where was this information on your website during the ordering process?
My order will be well in the first 1/3.
Out in the open = bitcointalk forums?
I can't stand iPhones.

I will wait until the refund date of 60 days past is reached for a refund. But I do appreciate the offer. (btw, this is information I had to find out clicking all the BFL user posts and trawling).

Sounds like you have your job cut out for you. I would recommend email updates to customers about these changes, an update on production progress, ceasing the use of these forums for announcements (let the email receivers post for you, use forums for discussion along the lines of your randomising question).
Updating the FAQ would be a good start.
I'm sure you have some of this on your radar anyway.

(In a previous life I was HoD Telecommunications for a large (3k staff, 25k+ student university), so I feel I can make some recommendations, apologies if I'm out of line).

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August 17, 2012, 10:40:00 PM
 #785

Regarding at least some early access ...

Well - to state the obvious, related to my post on the previous page - BFL can't send out a device with no software ...

They need someone to do the free software development (that they wont pay for in any way) so they can keep the, at least, many hundreds of thousands (or more likely millions) of dollars people have already given them ...

Otherwise they will be selling a device that no one can use ...

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August 17, 2012, 10:41:04 PM
 #786

Fair enough Josh, thanks for taking the time to respond with an explanation.  Smiley  I don't have a problem with BFL sending out test units at all - it just seemed unnecessary to me, but it certainly wouldn't hurt anything (other than people clamoring to try and be a tester, lol).

I volunteer  Grin

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August 17, 2012, 11:06:29 PM
 #787

Fair enough Josh, thanks for taking the time to respond with an explanation.  Smiley  I don't have a problem with BFL sending out test units at all - it just seemed unnecessary to me, but it certainly wouldn't hurt anything (other than people clamoring to try and be a tester, lol).

I volunteer  Grin

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August 17, 2012, 11:17:44 PM
 #788

A test unit would be awesome. I would be the king of all my friends if I had one, and friends.

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August 17, 2012, 11:50:06 PM
 #789

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Well - to state the obvious, related to my post on the previous page - BFL can't send out a device with no software ...

You're right.

Quote
They need someone to do the free software development (that they wont pay for in any way) so they can keep the, at least, many hundreds of thousands (or more likely millions) of dollars people have already given them ...

Now you're wrong! 

.500 average, not bad.


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August 17, 2012, 11:56:00 PM
 #790

Alright...

the problem I'm having right now is the use of vague terms and applying numbers to them...  like...

If you ordered early then you have a good chance of being in the first 1/3, and if you ordered late, probably not, and having a 66% chance of being in the first part and blah blah blah

Ya gotta define what is "early" and what isn't, and when we're talking about chances and percentages, what are they based on? The first 100 confirmed/paid orders? The first 48 hours worth of orders?

What range are we talking about here, because as long as vague terms keep being thrown out there, yer not telling us anything, and we're left being just as uncertain as before, and talking about it did no good whatsoever.

I understand there is a certain amount of uncertainty about how many will actually be ready to go out, so, what is being projected to be the amount so far? And are we talking, for the 1/3, is that all orders, or is that a portion of Jalapenos, a portion of Singles, a portion of Minis?

Like... is the first shipment planned to be X Jalapenos, Y Singles, and Z Minis, and that first 1/3 would be taken from the earliest orders of each type until you fill up those numbers?

I put off ordering other hardware, and chose to put it into ordering a Jalapeno instead (which was literally, all of the bitcoin I had been able to mine with my very weak hashrate, for half a year), expecting that being so early in the pre-order, I would be among the first to get mine, giving me my first opportunity to do more than mine for dust. My order is on day #2... are you guys considering day #2 to be "late"?

What are you guys considering "early" and "late"? And, say I don't end up making it into the first shipment... how long until you start shipping more?

We're getting all the vagueness we can stand with our elections coming up in a few months... just be straight with us please.

-- Smoov
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August 18, 2012, 12:01:07 AM
 #791

Quote
Well - to state the obvious, related to my post on the previous page - BFL can't send out a device with no software ...

You're right.

Quote
They need someone to do the free software development (that they wont pay for in any way) so they can keep the, at least, many hundreds of thousands (or more likely millions) of dollars people have already given them ...

Now you're wrong! 

.500 average, not bad.


Well, since a 1TH rig costs $30,000 (or $15,000 with a MR trade in) I can't see how I can possibly be wrong with my money guestimate ...

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August 18, 2012, 12:04:44 AM
 #792

Quote
Well - to state the obvious, related to my post on the previous page - BFL can't send out a device with no software ...

You're right.

Quote
They need someone to do the free software development (that they wont pay for in any way) so they can keep the, at least, many hundreds of thousands (or more likely millions) of dollars people have already given them ...

Now you're wrong! 

.500 average, not bad.


Well, since a 1TH rig costs $30,000 (or $15,000 with a MR trade in) I can't see how I can possibly be wrong with my money guestimate ...
I think he's saying that you're wrong about them needing someone to do the free software development.
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August 18, 2012, 12:05:51 AM
 #793

I apologize for being vague, but some of the numbers I can't disclose, others we don't want to disclose because if we have to change them, it will cause more problems and yet more of those numbers we don't have a solid figure for yet.  It's not a matter of wanting to be vague, but a matter of having to be vague to give you any information at all.  It's either vagueness or nothing on some points unfortunately.  People don't like radio silence, as evidenced by this thread and I'm trying to provide as much information as I can up to this point.

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping.  Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch.  Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out.  We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.  

Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?

It was my impression that the overwhelming majority wanted the playing field to be as level as possible, thus holding on to the orders until there's enough to ship a reasonable quantity would be preferred over shipping out a handful of each right away?  Is that thinking incorrect?
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August 18, 2012, 12:08:49 AM
 #794

Quote
I think he's saying that you're wrong about them needing someone to do the free software development.

Correct.  We do have a little thing that's been in development called EasyMiner.  It's languished on the back burner for a bit whilest we try to get equipment out the door, but it's not been entirely idle and we are going to be focusing more resources on it as we get into gear.  This is one of the reasons I have taken over the customer service and shipping processes, to free up some people who's resources can be better utilized elsewhere.

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August 18, 2012, 12:43:43 AM
 #795

The power requirements for the single/minirig will not be more than the current single/minirig.
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August 18, 2012, 12:46:32 AM
 #796

Hmm. My money cleared Paypal on the 15th (August), BFL has had my money since the 15th (August), and I still have no confirmation email from BFL with an order number or any kind of receipt other than the papal receipt. Would be nice to get some kind of verification from BFL that they got my order at least.

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August 18, 2012, 12:55:51 AM
 #797

Hmm. My money cleared Paypal on the 15th (August), BFL has had my money since the 15th (August), and I still have no confirmation email from BFL with an order number or any kind of receipt other than the papal receipt. Would be nice to get some kind of verification from BFL that they got my order at least.

SAME HERE!
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August 18, 2012, 01:07:03 AM
 #798


Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?

It was my impression that the overwhelming majority wanted the playing field to be as level as possible, thus holding on to the orders until there's enough to ship a reasonable quantity would be preferred over shipping out a handful of each right away?  Is that thinking incorrect?


Large quantity would give as many people as possible,equal opportunity of course  Grin

Make it so #1,for I am #2  Grin


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August 18, 2012, 02:11:08 AM
 #799

Let me ask you (and by extension everyone else): Do you want us to ship out a small quantity of units first and then a larger quantity later (thereby giving the first shipments a major advantage) or hold on to the units until we have enough (I am still going over what the "enough" is, specifically) to satisfy a large portion of the first set of orders at once?

It was my impression that the overwhelming majority wanted the playing field to be as level as possible, thus holding on to the orders until there's enough to ship a reasonable quantity would be preferred over shipping out a handful of each right away?  Is that thinking incorrect?
Well, IMHO, the overwhelming majority would be people who weren't early adopters when bitcoin came out in the first place, and so already have a negative attitude towards early adopters in general. It isn't based on any specific thing, but just the impression I get.

My choice is just to do FIFO, of whatever size. Picking 1/3 at random just doesn't seem right, but that wasn't your question.

As for small quantity vs large quantity, I suppose that would all depend on what you mean by small vs large to begin with. What you consider small, could be what I consider large, ya see... it doesn't mean anything because there is no frame of reference to what those terms are supposed to end up being.

If by small, you mean, the first week's worth of orders in the first 2/3 of your plan, then yeah, I'm cool with a small shipment... if by large, you mean, only the first 24 hours, then I hardly see what it matters.

If we had some idea of the first 1/3 would be the first week, or the first 4 days, or the first 8 hours, then we have something to work with. Even if it is only the roughest of estimates, it would give us an idea of what you're shooting for, and that's all I'm asking for.

Something like: We're shooting towards having all of the orders from the first 4 days going out at once, but we may end up only being able to send out the first day once we have an idea of how long assembly of each unit will ultimately take... etc

This would be something we can work with.

We know you're limited in what you can say, but please try and get someone to let you say enough of something to give a rough idea of what the goal is?

-- Smoov

edit: and I've firmed up what my issue with the random 1/3 is... if the first shipment amounts to roughly the first 24 hours of orders, or less, then the random third should still favor early orders. by early, I mean the first week, not the first month. the range of the random pick just seems too great, since it was sounding like the other 2/3 won't even exhaust the first day's worth of orders.
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August 18, 2012, 03:04:01 AM
 #800

IMHO:
I would prefer to see orders filled by the order in which the money was *received* by BFL.
If some one put in an order on the first day but took a month to pay I don't think they should be ahead of some one who paid in full on the second day.

As for batching shipments, if it was possible:
First day orders get on same first day
Second day orders get on second day (Or second shipment date?)
Sixth day orders get on sixth day (Or sixth shipping date)

That might be asking allot based on the number of orders submitted on the first two days.

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