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Author Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum  (Read 68030 times)
cablepair
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August 20, 2012, 08:18:09 PM
 #841

We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.

If BFL is concerned about difficulty spiking then perhaps send the first shipment when you have X percent of the current total network hashrate ready to go.  BFL would then know almost exactly what the impact to the difficulty will be and even better would be to have the community be involved in the decision as to what that percentage will be.  It seems BFL wants to reward early adopters by giving them some advantage, which is fair in my opinion, but not so much that just a few people can monopolize the network while it is still at a relatively low difficulty.

WRT to the demo units, if the devs are restricted to using them only on Testnet, then what incentive will they have to spend their valuable time running tests?  Either BFL should pay them to test/prove specs/develop software, or have no such limitations on their use of the units.  These devs have already put so much time and effort into the Bitcoin community that, I for one, welcome them getting a brief head start as a reward for all of the time they have already spent helping the community.

again more suggestions and more confusion.

This is why we need an official statement from BFL as to a concrete plan for shipping the ASICs

The 1/3rd idea is not horrible, it needs to be described a little more in detail and made official - that way we will all know where we stand, and it wont just be up in the air.

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August 20, 2012, 08:24:22 PM
 #842

We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once.
Can you explain what you mean by 'a difficulty spike'? It seems releasing as many units at once is the epitome of a difficulty spike, insofar as the network hashrate could jump by ca. two orders of magnitude overnight with the difficulty (hopefully) quickly following. Now, as a pool operator you certainty know better than me especially with EMC's recent 700GH/s increase, so let me know your thoughts on this: I imagine this abrupt increase in hashrate could accidentally DDoS pools out of existence, with both bandwidth and CPU bottlenecks. Recall, most people have a few pools as backup for their miners. Hence once one pool fails, the hashrate will jump on another pool, causing it to fail, etc. In this way, failure among pools due to very high load is correlated. With tens of TH/s coming online overnight and with pools at capacity, competing blockchains and poor network communication (remember, relaying blocks and serving getwork requests use the same connection!) may lead to very bad things. Basically, we'd have a situation where the difficulty may be an order of magnitude (or worse) below where it should be.

I think a slow, as-organic-as-possible rise in difficulty would be best for pools, miners, and the network. In other words, ship the units as they're made (according to the 1/3rd schedule).  It will allow time for pools to increase the number of server instances and change share difficulty to, say, 10 or 100. It would allow miners to access reliable pools. And it would be best for the network so we don't have a difficulty which is far-from-equilibrium possibly causing all sorts of weird problems (exacerbated by the pools being overloaded).

As far as demo units go, anything below 1% of the current network hashrate (~170GH/s) is really negligible in terms of their effect on difficulty. In my opinion, yes, send a jalapeno to every developer, I'm sure Gavin, et al., would appreciate it!
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August 20, 2012, 08:55:48 PM
 #843

Who are the people getting them? :-)

I would hope that it would be DrHaribo (bitminter developer), ckolivas (cgminer developer) and luke-jr (bfgminer developer) so that they can tighten up their software to work with ASIC.
Except that wasn't the answer given in this thread Smiley

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg1109152#msg1109152

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I think he's saying that you're wrong about them needing someone to do the free software development.

Correct.  We do have a little thing that's been in development called EasyMiner.  It's languished on the back burner for a bit whilest we try to get equipment out the door, but it's not been entirely idle and we are going to be focusing more resources on it as we get into gear.  This is one of the reasons I have taken over the customer service and shipping processes, to free up some people who's resources can be better utilized elsewhere.

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August 20, 2012, 09:07:16 PM
 #844

in the spirit of doing something to help instead of just bitching about it:

I have created a thread dedicated to the topic of the BFL Shipping plan

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.0

and I also created a poll which I encourage you all to vote in

maybe it will give BFL the nudge it needs to nail down a fair shipping plan

thanks!
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August 20, 2012, 10:36:51 PM
 #845

I am working on coming up with a concrete reply and explanation of the shipping plan which I will post/distribute when I have it ready.
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August 20, 2012, 11:28:26 PM
 #846

thanks Josh! can you please post it to this thread:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040

thanks man!
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August 21, 2012, 07:19:39 PM
 #847

And be sure to include where converted orders fall in the 1/3's!
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August 21, 2012, 08:14:18 PM
 #848

FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid.  If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.

If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way.  We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.




Ok.  A few JP's are fine IMO, but I hope they'd get in to the hands of the miner dev's.

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August 22, 2012, 06:57:35 AM
 #849


  Not sure how common this knowledge was but I was curious about warranties and the like and received the following information:

  BFL products have a warranty of 6 months.  If something dies, just like you would with a GPU, you send it in and they'll swap it for a new one.  The downtime would suck, yes, but at least you get the product fixed.
 
  Should something go south with Bitcoin period (and arguably if so, BFL would also tank as a company), they do *not* offer any returns for any ASIC product to my knowledge.

  Thus the contact person suggested for each purchaser to evaluate their investment into Bitcoin and BFL products accordingly.

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August 23, 2012, 11:24:18 AM
 #850

6 months?

Now i understand why they are NOT in Europe, here warranty by law is 2 years  Smiley
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August 25, 2012, 07:07:27 PM
 #851

^ that is a good thing Smiley

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August 26, 2012, 02:28:45 PM
 #852

Anyone pre-ordered their Jalapeno product?

Also, does anyone know how much power will it comsume?

Thanks.
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August 26, 2012, 03:10:48 PM
 #853

Anyone pre-ordered their Jalapeno product?

Also, does anyone know how much power will it comsume?

Thanks.

A lot of people have preordered the Jalapeno.  I've got one of them.  As far as power goes, nobody knows yet.  I'd imagine it will be a fairly low-power device.  I hear that it will not draw all its power over USB, though, so it'll be more than 2.5 or 5 watts.
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August 26, 2012, 03:24:12 PM
 #854

Anyone pre-ordered their Jalapeno product?

Also, does anyone know how much power will it comsume?

Thanks.

A lot of people have preordered the Jalapeno.  I've got one of them.  As far as power goes, nobody knows yet.  I'd imagine it will be a fairly low-power device.  I hear that it will not draw all its power over USB, though, so it'll be more than 2.5 or 5 watts.

Hmmm.. so no one yet has tested the Jalapeno.

It bothers me though that the Jalapeno with 3.5GH/s is much cheaper compare to the Single with only 835 MH/s.
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August 26, 2012, 03:29:39 PM
 #855

Does it bother you that CPU's two years ago were not as fast as CPU's today and they cost more 2 years ago?

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August 26, 2012, 03:57:15 PM
 #856

Does it bother you that CPU's two years ago were not as fast as CPU's today and they cost more 2 years ago?

Ohhh.. so you mean that the "Single" was made two years ago?
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August 26, 2012, 04:36:17 PM
 #857

Does it bother you that CPU's two years ago were not as fast as CPU's today and they cost more 2 years ago?

Ohhh.. so you mean that the "Single" was made two years ago?

You cannot relate "bitcoin time" to "real time".
Seeing as bitcoin is still relatively "new", yes, in bitcoin time, BFL singles were about 2 years ago.
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August 26, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
 #858

Does it bother you that CPU's two years ago were not as fast as CPU's today and they cost more 2 years ago?

Ohhh.. so you mean that the "Single" was made two years ago?

No, he means the current Single is an FPGA product that has been out for a while. The SC Jalapeno is an ASIC product they are still developing.

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August 26, 2012, 08:39:53 PM
 #859

Does it bother you that CPU's two years ago were not as fast as CPU's today and they cost more 2 years ago?
I'm actually surprised that it doesn't bother people that few will make any profit on their BFL FPGAs and then they must all double their money they give to BFL before they reach that profit mark and start again ... due to BFL themselves.

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August 26, 2012, 08:41:47 PM
 #860

Does it bother you that CPU's two years ago were not as fast as CPU's today and they cost more 2 years ago?
I'm actually surprised that it doesn't bother people that few will make any profit on their BFL FPGAs and then they must all double their money they give to BFL before they reach that profit mark and start again ... due to BFL themselves.

What choice is there?  If a person doesn't do it, someone else will and then they are left behind.

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