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Author Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum  (Read 68142 times)
KIDC
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August 19, 2012, 04:14:45 AM
 #821

Ok. So I'm late to this discussion but seeing that Josh is already responding to community concerns I'd like to chime in with my ideas/concerns also, I think I have worthwhile comments. Full disclosure - I have 240 GH of BitForce SC Singles on order since day one. I have a tendency to make some very long posts on here so skip to bottom for TL;DR. Some of the following I'm sure has already been suggested by others - regardless I'm going to make my points here also.

My main concern regarding demo units shipped to high profile miners is the network difficulty impact. With such a large leap in efficiency and hashrate density, network difficulty will obviously explode - and those lucky few who have demo units are going to make very large profits while the rest of the network is comprised of relatively mundane GPUs and FPGAs. Even the almighty rigbox will collapse in the face of the Single SC. If BFL can assure that they will not be used for the user's profiteering, and that they will be limited to a test network (of which they receive no BTC), then I am much more comfortable with this idea. I also, however, consider it to be unnecessary anyway. It should be clear just from the order tracking thread that BFL has ample orders and will have ample orders up until the network is so saturated with ASIC that it is no longer cost effective for new purchases for mining. One other option in this regard would be to release videos on Youtube or other sites displaying the product working and clearly showing it's size, power draw, features, design, etc. This would be simple to perform and would put the community at ease I'm sure. I'm also sure that somebody of Inaba's caliber could easily accomplish this. Perhaps also/instead, a livestream could be setup, showing a webcam of the unit in question, and a desktop display of the unit's output. If BFL does decide to release demo units and allow their operators to profit from their extreme mining power, then I would like it to be a handful of Jalapenos - both to limit network impact and profitability. A Jalapeno SC demonstration alone would prove that the technology works as advertised.

Now, for reasons that should be obvious to everybody involved in "ASICgate", delivery time is of critical importance. I did myself order on the first day, while knowing that the intended policy was 1/3 trade-in, 1/3 order date, and 1/3 random access for first month purchases. I was not comfortable with the random order picks, however I paid in the hopes that BFL will ship my product in order. I made considerable effort and sacrifices in order to pay for these units immediately and in full, and I personally feel strongly that those who have done the same and paid up front, literally right from the beginning and have put their trust in BFL should be taken care of and have their units first. However I also appreciate that the stated policy was to have a third of the orders randomized. Now I don't know what BFL's intention with this is. My personal opinion is that a portion of the early order customers - perhaps just the first day if possible - should be protected from what you might call "order sniping". These people have paid up front in full and have had their money in BFLs hands for the longest and should have their orders either shipped out all together on the same day or should have them shipped out in order before any other orders or "random lottery winners" have their orders fulfilled. This seems to be the only fair way to handle things. I do feel that it would be bad for BFL to now renege on their original statement regarding the random orders. However I feel it would be very unfair for somebody such as me, who is one of BFLs best customers, to have their order put on hold by somebody who ordered weeks later and only took my position due to a random lottery system. So I feel the only way to do this would be to protect the first order customers (up to a week perhaps) from the random lottery. I think also that perhaps bundling the orders into 1 week blocks after that would be a good idea. I feel that shipping the entire first month as one huge block order would be logistically difficult and far too large an impact on the network at once. So maybe 1 to 7 days of the first orders get processed and shipped as one large batch together one the same day, with immunity from random order sniping. After that weekly ship outs for the remaining three weeks of orders, with random orders mixed in. Obviously those with low order numbers have a exponentially higher interest in their orders being shipped first rather than being grouped into a batch shipment. I myself will probably be at a disadvantage if orders are grouped into a batch, but I'm not too concerned about that as long as my product is shipped relative the when I ordered (first day). I will feel burned if somebody else gets their order in front of me due to random placement - this shouldn't happen for the first orders - nor for people such as myself who have now spent many thousands of dollars with BFL.

I also noticed that Josh stated that the Minirig SC and Single SC will have the same power consumption as the currently existing FPGA units. This is great news to me and is something I was concerned about. 40 GH/sec for 82 watts is absolutely fantastic. I am trusting in Josh that this is correct. I feel that I can trust him, since he is "one of us" so to speak. I appreciate your time Josh, and know that you are just trying to merge business requirements with community desires. I feel that you're going to make a solid liaison between us and BFL, one that was long overdue, and one that can be trusted due to your solid standing in the community.

On another quick note - if anybody is going to get any demo units, from a strategy and ethical standpoint I feel it needs to be the main developers of the mining software that these will be running primarily ckolivas, kano, and luke-jr of CGMiner/BFGMiner. Even with that in mind, the incredible performance of the Minirig SC is so ridiculous that no more than one demo unit should be allowed on the network at one time.

That's all I have for now. (ALL I have? lol)

TL;DR:

1. No units of larger network impact than Jalapenos should be sent as demo units. Demo units aren't even necessary due to so many orders already. If BFL feel they must provide a demo for whatever reason, then I suggest a livestream or youtube video demo rather than sending superprofitable product to people and blowing up the difficulty for everybody else.
2. First order purchasers should not be penalized for their faith in BFL. They should be rewarded by being isolated from the 1/3 random order lottery. This should be done for up to 7 days of the first orders. They could be sent in order or as one large batch together to be shipped all on the same day (probably hundreds of units). Other orders after that include the random placement possibility, and could be shipped FIFO or by bulk. First entire month of all pre-orders would avoid both previous problems, but isn't practical due to the huge number of devices shipped and an absolutely epic network impact - so I strongly recommend against doing that.
3. I am trusting Josh/Inaba because I feel he represents the community and BFL. While he may have "gone pro" or whatever, I feel he still can empathize with us and understand our needs better than any other BFL liaison here on bitcointalk.
4. ASIC hardware demos, if BFL feels they must be released, need to go to developers who then commit to shipping reliable, solid code - CKolivas, Kano, Luke-jr, etc. No more than one Minirig should be on the network at once, period.


- KIDC

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August 19, 2012, 04:44:46 AM
 #822

You realize the network has increased over 5TH (or about 40%) in the past 3 months, without any ASICs? It would take 125 SC Singles or almost 1500 Jalapenos to equal a similar increase. When I'm number crunching to figure ASIC profitability, I've been assuming a 5x increase (to start with), which would be over 2,000 SC Singles, or 24,000 Jalapenos.

I don't think a "handful" of Jalapenos shipped to a test group will increase the difficulty (which I believe he said only Jalapenos would be shipped for testing) by any significant amount.

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August 19, 2012, 05:35:42 AM
 #823

The SC MiniRig is supposed to be 1TH/s so it won't take many of them to change things if they show up ...

(and aside: basic testing only needs a single card out of it Tongue)

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August 19, 2012, 06:28:46 AM
 #824

Ok. So I'm late to this discussion but seeing that Josh is already responding to community concerns I'd like to chime in with my ideas/concerns also, I think I have worthwhile comments. Full disclosure - I have 240 GH of BitForce SC Singles on order since day one. I have a tendency to make some very long posts on here so skip to bottom for TL;DR. Some of the following I'm sure has already been suggested by others - regardless I'm going to make my points here also.

My main concern regarding demo units shipped to high profile miners is the network difficulty impact. With such a large leap in efficiency and hashrate density, network difficulty will obviously explode - and those lucky few who have demo units are going to make very large profits while the rest of the network is comprised of relatively mundane GPUs and FPGAs. Even the almighty rigbox will collapse in the face of the Single SC. If BFL can assure that they will not be used for the user's profiteering, and that they will be limited to a test network (of which they receive no BTC), then I am much more comfortable with this idea. I also, however, consider it to be unnecessary anyway. It should be clear just from the order tracking thread that BFL has ample orders and will have ample orders up until the network is so saturated with ASIC that it is no longer cost effective for new purchases for mining. One other option in this regard would be to release videos on Youtube or other sites displaying the product working and clearly showing it's size, power draw, features, design, etc. This would be simple to perform and would put the community at ease I'm sure. I'm also sure that somebody of Inaba's caliber could easily accomplish this. Perhaps also/instead, a livestream could be setup, showing a webcam of the unit in question, and a desktop display of the unit's output. If BFL does decide to release demo units and allow their operators to profit from their extreme mining power, then I would like it to be a handful of Jalapenos - both to limit network impact and profitability. A Jalapeno SC demonstration alone would prove that the technology works as advertised.

Now, for reasons that should be obvious to everybody involved in "ASICgate", delivery time is of critical importance. I did myself order on the first day, while knowing that the intended policy was 1/3 trade-in, 1/3 order date, and 1/3 random access for first month purchases. I was not comfortable with the random order picks, however I paid in the hopes that BFL will ship my product in order. I made considerable effort and sacrifices in order to pay for these units immediately and in full, and I personally feel strongly that those who have done the same and paid up front, literally right from the beginning and have put their trust in BFL should be taken care of and have their units first. However I also appreciate that the stated policy was to have a third of the orders randomized. Now I don't know what BFL's intention with this is. My personal opinion is that a portion of the early order customers - perhaps just the first day if possible - should be protected from what you might call "order sniping". These people have paid up front in full and have had their money in BFLs hands for the longest and should have their orders either shipped out all together on the same day or should have them shipped out in order before any other orders or "random lottery winners" have their orders fulfilled. This seems to be the only fair way to handle things. I do feel that it would be bad for BFL to now renege on their original statement regarding the random orders. However I feel it would be very unfair for somebody such as me, who is one of BFLs best customers, to have their order put on hold by somebody who ordered weeks later and only took my position due to a random lottery system. So I feel the only way to do this would be to protect the first order customers (up to a week perhaps) from the random lottery. I think also that perhaps bundling the orders into 1 week blocks after that would be a good idea. I feel that shipping the entire first month as one huge block order would be logistically difficult and far too large an impact on the network at once. So maybe 1 to 7 days of the first orders get processed and shipped as one large batch together one the same day, with immunity from random order sniping. After that weekly ship outs for the remaining three weeks of orders, with random orders mixed in. Obviously those with low order numbers have a exponentially higher interest in their orders being shipped first rather than being grouped into a batch shipment. I myself will probably be at a disadvantage if orders are grouped into a batch, but I'm not too concerned about that as long as my product is shipped relative the when I ordered (first day). I will feel burned if somebody else gets their order in front of me due to random placement - this shouldn't happen for the first orders - nor for people such as myself who have now spent many thousands of dollars with BFL.

I also noticed that Josh stated that the Minirig SC and Single SC will have the same power consumption as the currently existing FPGA units. This is great news to me and is something I was concerned about. 40 GH/sec for 82 watts is absolutely fantastic. I am trusting in Josh that this is correct. I feel that I can trust him, since he is "one of us" so to speak. I appreciate your time Josh, and know that you are just trying to merge business requirements with community desires. I feel that you're going to make a solid liaison between us and BFL, one that was long overdue, and one that can be trusted due to your solid standing in the community.

On another quick note - if anybody is going to get any demo units, from a strategy and ethical standpoint I feel it needs to be the main developers of the mining software that these will be running primarily ckolivas, kano, and luke-jr of CGMiner/BFGMiner. Even with that in mind, the incredible performance of the Minirig SC is so ridiculous that no more than one demo unit should be allowed on the network at one time.

That's all I have for now. (ALL I have? lol)

TL;DR:

1. No units of larger network impact than Jalapenos should be sent as demo units. Demo units aren't even necessary due to so many orders already. If BFL feel they must provide a demo for whatever reason, then I suggest a livestream or youtube video demo rather than sending superprofitable product to people and blowing up the difficulty for everybody else.
2. First order purchasers should not be penalized for their faith in BFL. They should be rewarded by being isolated from the 1/3 random order lottery. This should be done for up to 7 days of the first orders. They could be sent in order or as one large batch together to be shipped all on the same day (probably hundreds of units). Other orders after that include the random placement possibility, and could be shipped FIFO or by bulk. First entire month of all pre-orders would avoid both previous problems, but isn't practical due to the huge number of devices shipped and an absolutely epic network impact - so I strongly recommend against doing that.
3. I am trusting Josh/Inaba because I feel he represents the community and BFL. While he may have "gone pro" or whatever, I feel he still can empathize with us and understand our needs better than any other BFL liaison here on bitcointalk.
4. ASIC hardware demos, if BFL feels they must be released, need to go to developers who then commit to shipping reliable, solid code - CKolivas, Kano, Luke-jr, etc. No more than one Minirig should be on the network at once, period.


- KIDC

+1

Bravo  Cool Very well put  Wink

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August 20, 2012, 02:58:46 PM
 #825

BFL needs to build a reasonable inventory (i.e., the first 30 days of orders?!?) and then release on their agreed schedule.  I would certainly prefer going solely by order # backed up with date of payment receipt...

 

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August 20, 2012, 05:31:03 PM
 #826

FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid.  If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.

If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way.  We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.

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August 20, 2012, 06:09:33 PM
 #827

FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid.  If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.

If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way.  We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.



People have already sent you the money and they are still ordering....

BFL has stated they would ship their products before the end of October, so just produce and ship

Who do you need to convince that you have the hardware ?
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August 20, 2012, 06:26:48 PM
 #828

FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid.  If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.

If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way.  We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.



People have already sent you the money and they are still ordering....

BFL has stated they would ship their products before the end of October, so just produce and ship

Who do you need to convince that you have the hardware ?

Dear BFL:

If you do send demo units can you please send them to Developers who are going to use them to better the mining software and not just people you think are popular around here?

...Like the way you did it last time... that was very lame.

thank you.
-Tom
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August 20, 2012, 06:29:37 PM
 #829

FIFO order portion will be on the date the order was paid.  If two orders were paid on the same day, the lower order number gets priority.

If we send out demo units, it will only be a few Jalapeno's, which won't amount to more than a few tens of GH, not enough to affect the network hashrate in any appreciable way.  We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.



People have already sent you the money and they are still ordering....

BFL has stated they would ship their products before the end of October, so just produce and ship

Who do you need to convince that you have the hardware ?

Dear BFL:

If you do send demo units can you please send them to Developers who are going to use them to better the mining software and not just people you think are popular around here?

...Like the way you did it last time... that was very lame.

thank you.
-Tom

yeah give it to the engineers/developers to honor their hard work for bitcoin!
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August 20, 2012, 06:56:18 PM
 #830

Dear Tom,

Yes.

Sincerely,

BFL

XXOO
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August 20, 2012, 07:04:27 PM
 #831

Dear Tom,

Yes.

Sincerely,

BFL

XXOO

Thanks for the hugs and kisses! Smiley

Also on a serious note is there some place I can view an official statement on this whole 1/3 shipping scheme you guys are planning on doing?

I have looked through this and other threads and can only find sporadic and vague statements. If there is an official announcement on this can you give me a link? Or if there is not an official announcement can you make one? October is right around the corner now and it would be nice to know for sure what your plans are for shipping.

I am not trying to bust your balls but its a bit confusing, and the last news update on your website is from november of last year :/

There are plenty of people around here you could hire to do web site updates for  probably $100 a month (or less)
and I would be willing to bet your customers would probably pay that persons salary just to know for a fact what is going on.

Thanks for your time.

Tom
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August 20, 2012, 07:14:10 PM
 #832

Who are the people getting them? :-)

dip
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August 20, 2012, 07:16:41 PM
 #833

Who are the people getting them? :-)

I would hope that it would be DrHaribo (bitminter developer), ckolivas (cgminer developer) and luke-jr (bfgminer developer) so that they can tighten up their software to work with ASIC.
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August 20, 2012, 07:18:38 PM
 #834

Yes, a website overhaul/update is definitely one of the priorities I am currently working on.  Contrary to some of the naysayers, better communication is my top priority.  I'm juggling a lot of balls right now, so each one is moving slower than it would if I could focus 100% on it, and hopefully I don't drop any.  If I do, someone pick it up and throw it back into the mix, please.
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August 20, 2012, 07:18:54 PM
 #835

Agreed. Devs only. No pool ops, big time miners, large purchasers. Devs seem quite selfless and deserving.

dip
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August 20, 2012, 07:31:11 PM
 #836

Who are the people getting them? :-)

I would hope that it would be DrHaribo (bitminter developer), ckolivas (cgminer developer) and luke-jr (bfgminer developer) so that they can tighten up their software to work with ASIC.
I would suggest sending one to forrestv (P2Pool developer) as well, since P2P<->ASIC/FPGA has their own issues as well, tho I suppose that concern could overlap with luke-jr's testing.

-- Smoov
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August 20, 2012, 07:31:55 PM
 #837

Yes, a website overhaul/update is definitely one of the priorities I am currently working on.  Contrary to some of the naysayers, better communication is my top priority.  I'm juggling a lot of balls right now, so each one is moving slower than it would if I could focus 100% on it, and hopefully I don't drop any.  If I do, someone pick it up and throw it back into the mix, please.


I am glad we agree about the website, but as a customer I would really appreciate it if you could please let me know the official statement status of the 1/3 shipping plan as I asked in my last post.


thanks Smiley

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August 20, 2012, 07:43:11 PM
 #838

Yes, a website overhaul/update is definitely one of the priorities I am currently working on.  Contrary to some of the naysayers, better communication is my top priority.  I'm juggling a lot of balls right now, so each one is moving slower than it would if I could focus 100% on it, and hopefully I don't drop any.  If I do, someone pick it up and throw it back into the mix, please.


I am glad we agree about the website, but as a customer I would really appreciate it if you could please let me know the official statement status of the 1/3 shipping plan as I asked in my last post.


thanks Smiley


Yes, it should be rather easy since the site is running WordPress, just log in and update the news page. No need to redesign the site right now, just post official updates and policy within your current system. It's not like you have to know how to code html or anything. If you can post on a message board, you can update an article on WordPress.
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August 20, 2012, 08:04:36 PM
 #839

Who are the people getting them? :-)

I would hope that it would be DrHaribo (bitminter developer), ckolivas (cgminer developer) and luke-jr (bfgminer developer) so that they can tighten up their software to work with ASIC.

Who are the people getting them? :-)

I would hope that it would be DrHaribo (bitminter developer), ckolivas (cgminer developer) and luke-jr (bfgminer developer) so that they can tighten up their software to work with ASIC.
I would suggest sending one to forrestv (P2Pool developer) as well, since P2P<->ASIC/FPGA has their own issues as well, tho I suppose that concern could overlap with luke-jr's testing.

-- Smoov



I concur with both suggestions.
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August 20, 2012, 08:05:07 PM
 #840

We explicitly want to avoid a difficulty spike, which is why we are wanting to release as many units we can at once, so no one has a marked advantage.  The demo unit business is not set in stone, I am just trying to get a feel for how the majority of the people want to handle verification that we have the hardware we claim to have.  I don't want to get into another situation where people are crying scam or what not.

If BFL is concerned about difficulty spiking then perhaps send the first shipment when you have X percent of the current total network hashrate ready to go.  BFL would then know almost exactly what the impact to the difficulty will be and even better would be to have the community be involved in the decision as to what that percentage will be.  It seems BFL wants to reward early adopters by giving them some advantage, which is fair in my opinion, but not so much that just a few people can monopolize the network while it is still at a relatively low difficulty.

WRT to the demo units, if the devs are restricted to using them only on Testnet, then what incentive will they have to spend their valuable time running tests?  Either BFL should pay them to test/prove specs/develop software, or have no such limitations on their use of the units.  These devs have already put so much time and effort into the Bitcoin community that, I for one, welcome them getting a brief head start as a reward for all of the time they have already spent helping the community.
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