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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3006526 times)
markm
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September 20, 2013, 01:55:14 PM
 #10061

No no, you don't understand, when you are in a formula one race, every penny counts, so damn right you want to slow way the fuck down to keep your tires from wearing out because tires cost money plus changing them takes time...  Roll Eyes  Tongue

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vesperwillow
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September 20, 2013, 01:57:13 PM
 #10062

No no, you don't understand, when you are in a formula one race, every penny counts, so damn right you want to slow way the fuck down to keep your tires from wearing out because tires cost money plus changing them takes time...  Roll Eyes  Tongue

-MarkM-


Stop being logical! lol

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September 20, 2013, 02:03:51 PM
 #10063

No no, you don't understand, when you are in a formula one race, every penny counts, so damn right you want to slow way the fuck down to keep your tires from wearing out because tires cost money plus changing them takes time...  Roll Eyes  Tongue

-MarkM-


You might end up having to stop the whole race because you didn't change the tires and one of them boomed away? Some stuff - that also takes some of the precious time - are still needed parts of the production of these things. They must do proper testing or they might end up with 100% of the units failing.. for some silly thing that is easily fixable but it will eat a lot more time than if they tested it in the first hand.
Who really thinks it's good if they ship everything they get without any testing? Would you like to receive unit that hasn't been tested and not only isn't working but also breaks your PSU?

And it's not about the design failures.. There's always differences in the actual chip and the designed chip. Even if you're super pro (and we somehow assume OrSoC is in that category?).. it still happens.

Puppet
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September 20, 2013, 02:04:54 PM
 #10064

how much are you gonna care for a few percent of bad units?

You dont. You know they will happen and it will be a non trivial percentage. Could be anywhere from 5 to 50% on a first run. But thats not the question. The question is if you want to discover all those bad chips before you spent time and money putting the defective chips in a fully populated PCB and assemble it to a functional testable miner, possibly with components that are harder to score than the asics (ask BFL) , or if you are going to do what is done with probably every other asic ever produced, test the dies and/or packaged chips before you waste those components,  time and money.

Im nt sure you realize those chips might be among the cheapest components and with the highest defect rate by far. Thats the one you want throw away, not the rest.
vesperwillow
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September 20, 2013, 02:14:55 PM
 #10065

It sounds like we're just philosphizing over semantics. KNC said they wouldn't ship bum units, and that they would ship ontime.

Presuming this to be fact, how they achieve their goal is moot. They have to meet their time to market goal. I don't think any of us cares if they toss 1 or 15,000 $250 PCB's as long as they meet that goal.

I also don't believe they care either--meeting that goal is like hitting a goldmine to them.

timmmers
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September 20, 2013, 02:16:18 PM
 #10066

how much are you gonna care for a few percent of bad units?

You dont. You know they will happen and it will be a non trivial percentage. Could be anywhere from 5 to 50% on a first run. But thats not the question. The question is if you want to discover all those bad chips before you spent time and money putting the defective chips in a fully populated PCB and assemble it to a functional testable miner, possibly with components that are harder to score than the asics (ask BFL) , or if you are going to do what is done with probably every other asic ever produced, test the dies and/or packaged chips before you waste those components,  time and money.

Im nt sure you realize those chips might be among the cheapest components and with the highest defect rate by far. Thats the one you want throw away, not the rest.

Every other ASIC has been late and the reputation of the company destroyed. We're talking about normal QA procedures here, international standards, AFTER the initial few rigs are out of the door. After they have met that deadline or come close..they can afford to be more intense with their QC if they wish. Formula one is a pretty good analogy.

Their initial production costing and unit retail prices will have taken into account waste..if not they shouldn't be even allowed to build with Lego.
itod
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September 20, 2013, 02:19:01 PM
 #10067

how much are you gonna care for a few percent of bad units?

You dont. You know they will happen and it will be a non trivial percentage. Could be anywhere from 5 to 50% on a first run. But thats not the question. The question is if you want to discover all those bad chips before you spent time and money putting the defective chips in a fully populated PCB and assemble it to a functional testable miner, possibly with components that are harder to score than the asics (ask BFL) , or if you are going to do what is done with probably every other asic ever produced, test the dies and/or packaged chips before you waste those components,  time and money.

You keep forgetting some facts:
- KNC are in different situation than any other ASIC ever produced. We've never seen 100% a month difficulty growth, and we may see much higher figures very soon.
- They don't have a facilities to do the chip-level resting in-house, only the board level testing.
- If they try to do chip-level testing for a whole batch #1 of their chips in China, it could take a week (or two).
- They don't have tested design yet. They may have a single problem in the design which can slow them down a week (or two) to solve.
Can they afford to loose some headroom for design changes gaining less faulty complete units?
Can they afford to reduce the worth of their chips 50% (two weeks late) to avoid some percentage of wasted complete units?
Can they afford the risk of mass refunds if they don't deliver before mid-october?
Anduck
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September 20, 2013, 02:34:39 PM
 #10068

Every other ASIC has been late and the reputation of the company destroyed.

Wrong. Check this link:
http://bitbet.us/bet/520/bitfury-eu-august-orders-will-ship-before-1st/

Bitfury shipped in time!

vesperwillow
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September 20, 2013, 02:49:19 PM
 #10069

Every other ASIC has been late and the reputation of the company destroyed.

Wrong. Check this link:
http://bitbet.us/bet/520/bitfury-eu-august-orders-will-ship-before-1st/

Bitfury shipped in time!

KNC is unique because of the time from design to delivery. Bitfury was under design for quite awhile weren't they?

markm
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September 20, 2013, 02:51:43 PM
 #10070

Surely in all these years humans have been soldering, someone must have hit upon the idea of making different-temperature solders so you can do things like solder the board with higher temperature solder then use a lower temperature solder to solder-in the ASIC when it arrives, so you can remove it without all the other components on the board coming loose?

They said the plan was to test the engines that are in the chip, shutting down those that don't work, how are they wasting the rest of the board if so many don't work that they have to loosen the lower temperature solder to remove the ASIC later once their shipping deadline has been hit?

Heck they could auction off "too few good engines board plus tested all-good-engines chip" do it yourself kits to DIYers later once they do have a system set up for testing the chips before they get onto boards. They could even have had the foundry make way the fuck more chips than they need for this initial formula-one-race run (including oodles of spares just in case) and thus have as many or more chips heading out to some testing place that can take a week or few to test the bejeezus out of them before sending them on to Sweden so that everything after the big race is totally tested fifty-five ways from sunday before they get them.

-MarkM-

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itod
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^ will code for bitcoins


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September 20, 2013, 02:52:14 PM
 #10071

True about Bitfury, but that just underlines the whole point. BTW, while we are at Bitfury, those guys are doing some amazing things. First they promised Batch #1 of their units before September 1st, delivered August 31st. Then they promised tons of their reels before October 1st:
http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/bitfury-reel-fifo/
few hours ago there's a news they delivered today, week earlier!!!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=288718.msg3196636#msg3196636
Unheard of in BTC world. Hope others will follow their example.

Edit:
Only one week earlier, my mistake.
kevinm
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September 20, 2013, 03:02:28 PM
 #10072

the ride was great, but the cliff is soon approaching.
your first day of operation on a jupiter will get you 1.5 BTC max
Hardly Avalon batch 1 levels is it?

slag me off if u like,
but make sure you post your rewards when u start hashing if im wrong,
i will eat yip yip's ball sack (escrowed through john of course)

cheers,
kev

BTC:   13oxYTF1CDzz63FV6FDMT7xuzpH8TRnYgb
btcusr
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September 20, 2013, 03:12:00 PM
 #10073

I think, it is not always hash rates. sometimes luck also play a major (small) role in winning a block.

Is it the largest pool is winning the most blocks? at least, proportionally winning most? I don't think so. So, even if you get your miners by October, you are going to use it till next two years. by this time, total network hash rate could go up to ~100PHash.

Lets hope 22nm ASICS not going to happen in 2014.. Smiley

so, let's just relax. Cool

rolling
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September 20, 2013, 03:19:15 PM
 #10074


I really want to see KNC and Cointerra delivering and going head to head.

Cointerra? Lol. Maybe KNC and Bitfury.
Micky25
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September 20, 2013, 03:20:06 PM
 #10075

True about Bitfury, but that just underlines the whole point. BTW, while we are at Bitfury, those guys are doing some amazing things. First they promised Batch #1 of their units before September 1st, delivered August 31st. Then they promised tons of their reels before October 1st:
http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/bitfury-reel-fifo/
few hours ago there's a news they delivered today, week earlier!!!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=288718.msg3196636#msg3196636
Unheard of in BTC world. Hope others will follow their example.

Edit:
Only one week earlier, my mistake.

Sorry for OT, but if someone wants to honour such progress and maybe motivate other ASIC-vendors to show similar exemplary business behavior, have a look at the BFSB-Post in my signature.
vesperwillow
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September 20, 2013, 03:25:22 PM
 #10076

True about Bitfury, but that just underlines the whole point. BTW, while we are at Bitfury, those guys are doing some amazing things. First they promised Batch #1 of their units before September 1st, delivered August 31st. Then they promised tons of their reels before October 1st:
http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/bitfury-reel-fifo/
few hours ago there's a news they delivered today, week earlier!!!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=288718.msg3196636#msg3196636
Unheard of in BTC world. Hope others will follow their example.

Edit:
Only one week earlier, my mistake.

Sorry for OT, but if someone wants to honour such progress and maybe motivate other ASIC-vendors to show similar exemplary business behavior, have a look at the BFSB-Post in my signature.

Why would we want to give money to people already making money?

And for the price they're asking for october delivery, you can get blades right now for less cost for the same hash power.

Micky25
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September 20, 2013, 03:36:08 PM
 #10077

I try to answer this with another post I made.

I bought 2 starter kits for August delivery and paid 1.000€ each, got them on September 4th and mined a bit more than 3 BTC with them until today. Two other investments are in limbo, one huge in semi-limbo with 20%, maybe 100% loss, waiting for refund, and the final two refunded after several months, one of them with 9% loss. All money I put in came from own labour.

So the BFSB investment is the only one, that actually brings me back something. And this makes me very, very happy. If I get a ROI? I do already! If I ever break even? Only time will tell  Smiley
I only know the product and the company behind it are rock solid, tell me one other this can be said of. Thats why I reinvested.
Puppet
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September 20, 2013, 03:36:57 PM
 #10078

You keep forgetting some facts:

I cant forget "facts" Ive never known about. Much less facts that arent. That said

Quote
- KNC are in different situation than any other ASIC ever produced. We've never seen 100% a month difficulty growth, and we may see much higher figures very soon.

I wasnt talking about bitcoin asics, Im talking about asics in general. And if you think KnC is the first company  to face a huge time to market pressure, well, you're wrong.
In fact, the pressure really isnt on KnC so much as its on its customers. KnC already collected, and a few days or a few weeks of delays doesnt cost them much, if anything. Its their customers who stand to lose, but if KnC delivers only one or two weeks behind schedule, not many will complain and only a fool would charge back and go stand in line at a competitor.
 And we are not talking about weeks, I dont know why I keep saying that, we are talking about.. well, no time at all really.

Quote
- They don't have a facilities to do the chip-level resting in-house, only the board level testing.

Thats a fact I hadnt read about. But not a surprising one. Nor should it matter, it seems extremely unlikely that the fab wouldnt have a wafer probe nor the assembly house  either a wafer probe nor chip testing equipment.  That just isnt gonna happen. And even if that were the case:

Quote
- If they try to do chip-level testing for a whole batch #1 of their chips in China, it could take a week (or two).

You wouldnt send it across the globe, you would find a company offering testing services in the same building or at least same campus. Dont you think each and every customer of the packaging house needs testing? Not finding a testing facility less than a stone throw away sounds about as likely as a hospital without coffee machines or news stand Smiley

Quote
- They don't have tested design yet. They may have a single problem in the design which can slow them down a week (or two) to solve.

Sure, not sure how that makes a point against wafer and/or chip testing. On the contrary, you would want to know what is going wrong with every non functional miner. Is it a bad PCB?  Bad assembly? Bad packaging? Bad die's ? Where on the wafer were the bad dies located? That sort of stuff. Hard to find out after you packaged and assembled everything. All you know is it doesnt work for some reason.

Anyway, this discussion isnt important enough to continue, but Im pretty sure you have it wrong.
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September 20, 2013, 03:37:36 PM
 #10079

So, there will be PCIE-8 connectors for 12vdc to the main board but does the Beaglebone take 5vdc?  Is there a 12v-5v switching down converter onboard or will the Beaglebone always require a separate 5vdc supply?  I can see how one might first apply the 5vdc, login, configure the miner, then fire up the 12vdc but an onboard converter would preclude two PSUs given the device can already have been configured.



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vesperwillow
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September 20, 2013, 03:41:50 PM
 #10080

I try to answer this with another post I made.

I bought 2 starter kits for August delivery and paid 1.000€ each, got them on September 4th and mined a bit more than 3 BTC with them until today. Two other investments are in limbo, one huge in semi-limbo with 20%, maybe 100% loss, waiting for refund, and the final two refunded after several months, one of them with 9% loss. All money I put in came from own labour.

So the BFSB investment is the only one, that actually brings me back something. And this makes me very, very happy. If I get a ROI? I do already! If I ever break even? Only time will tell  Smiley
I only know the product and the company behind it are rock solid, tell me one other this can be said of. Thats why I reinvested.

You paid 1 Euro for hashing machines?


So, there will be PCIE-8 connectors for 12vdc to the main board but does the Beaglebone take 5vdc?  Is there a 12v-5v switching down converter onboard or will the Beaglebone always require a separate 5vdc supply?  I can see how one might first apply the 5vdc, login, configure the miner, then fire up the 12vdc but an onboard converter would preclude two PSUs given the device can already have been configured.

You're questioning whether an engineering team with proven designs is going to forget to put a voltage regulator in place so a daughterboard can handle lower voltages?

Seriously?

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