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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3039464 times)
the-skeptic
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September 21, 2013, 04:11:23 AM
 #10141

So another point: If people think that individual miners have a lot to lose when difficulty skyrockets, punch in some numbers for the 200THs farm. These days they are making $300,000 a month, but when difficulty hits 1.1B (which should happen fairly rapidly) that will drop to $30,000 a month. Are they planning to go to 400THs then 800THs and so on? When they start consuming 100KW of electricity just to stay online do they split up into several smaller farms at multiple locations?

This is why I think the economy of scale for smaller miners (like most of us) is better and the BTC mining world naturally wants to be decentralized. I don't have a problem dumping my first two or three months (hell even 6 months) of mined BTC to buy more hashing power, just so I can stay in the black.  Is the 200THs group investing a couple hundred thousand a month on new hardware each month? Do they have the stamina to do that month after month? Eventually they will grow unprofitable and need to sell off their hardware cheap, just like ASICMiner. They'll crumble and the smaller miners pick will up the hardware, maintaining the hashrate.

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demonmaestro
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September 21, 2013, 04:48:00 AM
 #10142

That maybe true BUT the BIG question is what will happen once all the blocks are mined?

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September 21, 2013, 04:52:08 AM
Last edit: September 21, 2013, 05:44:40 AM by Anenome5
 #10143

That maybe true BUT the BIG question is what will happen once all the blocks are mined?
You mean in 120 years from now? o_O

The answer is that bitcoin should've taken over world commerce then and miners fees will have long since eclipsed mining fees. At some point there's an inversion that takes place, where miners fees become bigger than the block reward on average.

I wonder when we'll see that happen for the first time.

Mining fees right now occasionally add up to one entire bitcoin. Perhaps in the year to come we'll see that figure double or triple as commerce takes off.

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
sbfree
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September 21, 2013, 05:09:17 AM
 #10144

never really thought of that.....super good point.....


I thought I recently saw a block payout at 106btc....or was i dreaming that?
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September 21, 2013, 05:11:52 AM
 #10145

The irony is that when all bitcoins are mined the government may have to take over security:


In any P2P currency, there are only 3 choices, or combination of them.

You fund miners from savers.
You fund miners from spenders.
You let the government provide the mining. A public need so the economy doesn't stop.

1 is not available to Bitcoin long-term, because debasement is halving every four years.

2 penalizes economic activity, which is more important than burying money, ahem saving. Also it doesn't scale, unless it is uniform in the protocol. Gavin wrote making it uniform won't work in the market.

3 is thus the outcome for Bitcoin. (as designed by Satoshi)


http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/876/how-much-will-transaction-fees-eventually-be
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September 21, 2013, 05:12:20 AM
 #10146

That maybe true BUT the BIG question is what will happen once all the blocks are mined?
You mean in 120 years from now? o_O

The answer is that bitcoin should've taken over world commerce then and miners fees will have long since eclipsed mining fees. At some point there's an inversion that takes place, where miners fees become bigger than the block reward on average.

I wonder when we'll see that happen for the first time.

Mining fees right now occasionally add up to one entire bitcoin. Perhaps in the year to come we'll see that figure double or triple as commerce takes off.

anenome5, that was such a good point I just had to quote this time....gets the wheels spinning a little bit in regards to long term adoption by the masses as a form of currency worldwide, especially as a form of remittances and what you just brightly pointed out....TRANSACTION FEES!!
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September 21, 2013, 05:40:03 AM
 #10147

That maybe true BUT the BIG question is what will happen once all the blocks are mined?
You mean in 120 years from now? o_O

The answer is that bitcoin should've taken over world commerce then and miners fees will have long since eclipsed mining fees. At some point there's an inversion that takes place, where miners fees become bigger than the block reward on average.

I wonder when we'll see that happen for the first time.

Mining fees right now occasionally add up to one entire bitcoin. Perhaps in the year to come we'll see that figure double or triple as commerce takes off.

anenome5, that was such a good point I just had to quote this time....gets the wheels spinning a little bit in regards to long term adoption by the masses as a form of currency worldwide, especially as a form of remittances and what you just brightly pointed out....TRANSACTION FEES!!


Lol, he kind of missed that in the original post, didn't he?  If you replace "miners fees" with "transaction fees", it makes perfect sense.  Otherwise, not so much.
kingcoin
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September 21, 2013, 07:14:28 AM
 #10148

They would be testing them individually as they were packaged.  While you can't be certain of the extent of the testing unless you're involved, at the very least they're testing to sort out parts from bad dies from near the edge of the wafer (perhaps only 1 or 2 of the engines functional) and for major faults like Vcc shorted to GND.

How extensive the testing is per chip will depend on the testbeds and simulations that OrSoc provided the packager.  They're doing at least gross electrical testing at a minimum.  They probably are not going so far as binning parts with 4 engines showing up as functional...

There was a concrete question at the KnC open day, if they will do any wafer level or chip level final tests. They clearly answered with no.

If this is still true, they are currently doing a blind packaging of all dies (including the completely bad dies from near the edge of wafers and dies with electrical shorts) and they will assemble all these chips to PCBs. The first time they will notice that there is something wrong with a single chip is when they try to hash with it assembled to a PCB.

This is probably the fastest way to get a chip hashing (because they save the time required for bringing up and debugging a production test environment). But it could be that they have to throw away a lot of fully assembled PCBs. Not optimal in terms of costs, but finally KnC’s problem.

A wafer level test usually takes less than a second. The infrastructure is there already. All you have to do is to provide a test pattern file (STIL/WGL). For a miner even a small amount of vectors would give you very high coverage. IMHO the only reason for not doing this is if the yield is known and so low that the cost of in-fab testing exceeds the cost of the scrapped devices, boards, re-flow, re-ball or whatever cost you have related to mounting defective devices and testing them during your own production run. I would expect them to save time by doing in-fab test since they will have more confidence in the actual ASIC if the first assembled miner does not work and it might save debugging time. Of course this is not an at-speed test so there might be other issues, but still you will have a higher confidence that the actual part you just mounted is not faulty.
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September 21, 2013, 07:18:04 AM
 #10149

*patiently waiting for video and refreshing KNC website every hour*
Try "Page Monitor" plugin for Chrome. Refreshes every 10 minutes, audible alarm for changes discovered, free.

done, thanks for hint
demonmaestro
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September 21, 2013, 07:18:22 AM
 #10150

Well lets hope we hear some good news this coming week!

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plasmoske
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September 21, 2013, 07:33:35 AM
 #10151

Armchair Experts. Everywhere.


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kingcoin
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September 21, 2013, 07:38:30 AM
 #10152

The more important bit of info from this is that, as believed by some of us here to begin with, KNC is having folks physically transport the chips during these transits, in order to bypass customs delays.

In my experience it's not always optimal to do things different than the regular procedure as you will deal with people which have no experience on how to handle the situation.

What will the Arlanda customs officers do when someone arrives with a huge box of heavily packaged commercial merchandise worth thousands of dollars sealed in foil? They are used to search for drugs, alcohol, and other stuff among dirty underwear. What if they insists on keeping it for further inspection? Or what if they open the sealed bags and you have to re-bake the chips and get another delay?

Hopefully they have checked out this in advance.
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September 21, 2013, 07:48:55 AM
 #10153

The more important bit of info from this is that, as believed by some of us here to begin with, KNC is having folks physically transport the chips during these transits, in order to bypass customs delays.

In my experience it's not always optimal to do things different than the regular procedure as you will deal with people which have no experience on how to handle the situation.

What will the Arlanda customs officers do when someone arrives with a huge box of heavily packaged commercial merchandise worth thousands of dollars sealed in foil? They are used to search for drugs, alcohol, and other stuff among dirty underwear. What if they insists on keeping it for further inspection? Or what if they open the sealed bags and you have to re-bake the chips and get another delay?

Hopefully they have checked out this in advance.



Oh dear god!  Will it ever end?   Cry
Bitcoinorama
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September 21, 2013, 08:05:12 AM
 #10154

The more important bit of info from this is that, as believed by some of us here to begin with, KNC is having folks physically transport the chips during these transits, in order to bypass customs delays.

In my experience it's not always optimal to do things different than the regular procedure as you will deal with people which have no experience on how to handle the situation.

What will the Arlanda customs officers do when someone arrives with a huge box of heavily packaged commercial merchandise worth thousands of dollars sealed in foil? They are used to search for drugs, alcohol, and other stuff among dirty underwear. What if they insists on keeping it for further inspection? Or what if they open the sealed bags and you have to re-bake the chips and get another delay?

Hopefully they have checked out this in advance.


I'm sure Arlanda customs will be more than willing to oblige native residents with local businesses only a few miles down the road that pertain to the exact product being transported, especially as it clearly isn't a substance, but a necessary component. That is if it is arriving by this means at all...

*If* that's the case, they will probably arrange clearance ahead of time by informing customs as to the exact nature of their goods. In any case most customs care less about legality, of which this isn't even remotely a concern, and more about duty and levy, of which KnC are doing everything by the book. They are paying tax and not breaking rules either legal or ethical with respect to queue order. They want a legitimate long term business, not  a throw at a roulette table with customer funds, otherwise they would have avoided accountability from third parties securing payment and fraudulently lied telling you whatever you wanted to hear with respect to promised power consumption, theoretical, not realistic hashrate and bullshit, now 'anticipated' bullshit delivery times, to make you part with your cash for indefinite periods of time like other companies doing this right now.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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September 21, 2013, 08:09:04 AM
 #10155

But wait!

What if...

Inaba shipped the customers officer to Kansas City ahead of time and used the BFL mind control ray on him?!?!?!

Or worse! ... What if BFL's mind-control ray has been launched into orbit and can target customs officers worldwide?!?!?!

 Roll Eyes Tongue

-MarkM-

Browser-launched Crossfire client now online (select CrossCiv server for Galactic  Milieu)
Free website hosting with PHP, MySQL etc: http://hosting.knotwork.com/
demonmaestro
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September 21, 2013, 08:11:14 AM
 #10156

But wait!

What if...

Inaba shipped the customers officer to Kansas City ahead of time and used the BFL mind control ray on him?!?!?!

Or worse! ... What if BFL's mind-control ray has been launched into orbit and can target customs officers worldwide?!?!?!

 Roll Eyes Tongue

-MarkM-


Lay off the crack pipe.  Shocked

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September 21, 2013, 08:13:59 AM
 #10157

But wait!

What if...

Inaba shipped the customers officer to Kansas City ahead of time and used the BFL mind control ray on him?!?!?!

Or worse! ... What if BFL's mind-control ray has been launched into orbit and can target customs officers worldwide?!?!?!

 Roll Eyes Tongue

-MarkM-


What if Inaba, and Yifu both pre-arranged their customs duties owed ahead of time and organised a seamless transition of goods, or behaved like a business and oversaw operations professionally like they were meant to instead of telling you a pack of lies constantly...

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
Micky25
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September 21, 2013, 08:17:14 AM
 #10158

What if it went like this

Remember this one?



We can now speculate further on the contents of that conversation…
Lets go to the bathroom and take some lines. This plate looks perfect.


A couple of days later:


xstr8guy
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September 21, 2013, 08:27:09 AM
 #10159

But wait!

What if...

Inaba shipped the customers officer to Kansas City ahead of time and used the BFL mind control ray on him?!?!?!

Or worse! ... What if BFL's mind-control ray has been launched into orbit and can target customs officers worldwide?!?!?!

 Roll Eyes Tongue

-MarkM-


Good one!

It's very hard to distinguish the satire from the insanity in this thread.  But this single post pretty much says it all.

Now can we stop with the IRYRASMO, please?  Lol.
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September 21, 2013, 08:48:08 AM
 #10160

What if it went like this

Remember this one?



We can now speculate further on the contents of that conversation…

"so this is your secret monarch gen IV chip ?"
"yep"
"got a working prototype?"
"in two weeks"
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