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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3008708 times)
timmmers
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September 13, 2013, 04:19:32 PM
 #9261

Man, these guys are really putting some work into this "scam" eh? Pretending to build a datacentre and buy loads of shiny kit.

I await some hilarious trolling about that being something else than  what it obviously is...some guys making a home for some rigs to live in in the very near future.

Thanks for sharing. Smiley
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vesperwillow
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September 13, 2013, 04:22:39 PM
 #9262

Man, these guys are really putting some work into this "scam" eh? Pretending to build a datacentre and buy loads of shiny kit.

I await some hilarious trolling about that being something else than  what it obviously is...some guys making a home for some rigs to live in in the very near future.

Thanks for sharing. Smiley

You know damn well that's photoshopped!

 Grin Grin

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September 13, 2013, 04:36:07 PM
 #9263

Wonder if this is a photoshop..


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September 13, 2013, 04:49:44 PM
 #9264

No you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. It is illegal to mention the word 'investment', or promise a 'return on investment' and then make that part of your terms of sale via the use of a clickwrap when you are an unregulated financial service.

Bullshit.  In order for something to be illegal in the U.S, there needs to be a law that says it's illegal. What law says it's illegal to say "investment" or "return on investment"

Earlier you were saying it was fraudulent to buy something with a credit card with the intention of canceling the order, which is clearly bonkers.

Quote
"Please read this carefully, as with all things Bitcoin one should treat this as an investment and make the decision best for you based on the liquid-able funds available at the moment when placing an order.

I accept the terms and the potential risks involved with placing an order."


If you want to hold and transmit money in any way you will need to comply with money transmitter laws. Bitcoin has been recognised as a currency on a Federal level. Bitsyncom has claimed to offer an investment by which they hold your funds and offer a return over a given period and then made you click to agree to those terms.

To compound this, there is the shadiness of the fact they pre-mined and purposely delayed equipment with a premeditated knowledge of the effect on promised returns, this is known and provable and had a direct detrimental effect on their customers 'investment', along with the allegations by their own staff they were in possession of significant numbers of chips from the end of June, before dropping all contact for a couple of months until legal action was threatened.

There is a significant difference between the above and what they should have stuck to, i.e. they manufacture a machine that spits Bitcoins, that is all the machine does, and is not priced on a return on investment.

Again, what you are saying is totally insane.  FinCEN SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED people who SOLD PRODUCTS WITH BITCOINS from needing to register as money transmitters or needing to comply with KYC.   It's not illegal to sell stuff with bitcoin in the U.S without registering as a money transmitter.

Secondly, bitcoin isn't even recognized as a currency at the federal level, a single judge in one case said it could be money regarding the PirateAt40 case.  That only applies to that single case, and if upheld on appeal at the circuit level would only apply to the circuit (a group of states).

Pirate would have to appeal the case all the way to the supreme court and lose in order for that ruling to be the official law of the land.

You don't live in the U.S. and you clearly do not understand how the US legal system works, or what the laws actually say.

Obviously if Yifu refused refunds and never delivered the products, he would be likely be sued and possibly lose.  However, giving the refunds it's unlikely a lawsuit would be successful, and if it was it could only be for the cost of the boards, etc that people purchased in anticipation of the chips.

Claiming that Avalon units were financial instruments simply because he used the word 'investment' or "ROI" is insane.  People use the word investment all the time when advertising products. Things like awnings or clearcoat for your car are advertised as "great investments"

If you think it's illegal in the us to use the word "investment" when advertising a product then show me the specific chapter and paragraph in the legal code that makes it illegal.  If you can't find it, then you can't make that claim, period.

Also, you seem to be getting more and more shrill lately. I have no idea why you're hammering on this bizarre legal theory about Avalon but it's definitely completely insane.

Quote

Oh shit, better lock that guy up!

Quote

OMG THAT GUY IS SELLING COMICS AND CALLING THEM INVESTMENTS, AND EVEN USING NUMBERS!? HOW IS THIS MONSTER NOT IN JAIL!??!!?

Seriously dude you seem to have lost your mind.

If it was illegal, there would be a specific law that said it was illegal.  Of course, there isn't, because it's obviously not.

You Sir have to learn how to read correctly. You argument is invalid since both of these guys did not say those specific words in a terms of service context. IF you have those terms in your ToS, you need to have the appropriate licenses. That is not only so in the US, it's pretty much everywhere in the world.
And please note that he is not liable because he sold goods for bitcoins but because he "promised" returns of investments to his customers - which only a licensed/registered/regulateted (insert any kind of money playing thingy here) can.

Who wants to be a billionaire? Me!
You could help Wink 1Dvja1RFCqxdnYRgjTntwGvdCeUisU4xp
Rampion
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September 13, 2013, 05:19:20 PM
 #9265

looking at thegenesisblock i did some math and things are looking grim..wanted to know what you guys think about it.

Given facts:
- With an initial mining date of October
- Difficulty ~140 mil (now 110 + 30% over the next week)
- 1 Jupiter @ 400 MH/s
- BTC@140$

Results. This scenario with an increase of 77% until march next year will not break even!
Considering that in October we will most likely see 40-50%/11day increase since KNC is shipping, November and December mark the months of newcomers such as (CoinTerra and HashFEst)
The likelihood that the difficulty will taper off until march 2014 is next to 0.

Maybe i`m not seeing all the sides of the cube, but it is not looking good.
With BTC @ 180$ will have profited ~400$

Yep. It would have been more profitable to just have bought BTC in June instead of buying Jupiters. Difficulty just went to the roof.

Hindsight is 20/20. It was a risk, we took it, it didn't pay off. That's life, at least the loss is not too big if they deliver on time.

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September 13, 2013, 05:33:11 PM
 #9266

KNC setting up the datacentre:

That's Sam right there on the left:

Speaking of photoshop, I like how they blurred out the labels on all the boxes, just in case they gave anything away  Grin

P.S. The power supply looks like a Cooler Master V1000.


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September 13, 2013, 05:37:03 PM
 #9267

For ideal efficiency you want no more than ~60% load on the PSU. So people are getting a 1,000 watt PSU to achieve that. 850w is adequate but not targeted towards efficiency, on a device that will be operating full bore, 24/7, it makes sense.

Also you could get two 500w PSUs and feed one to each side, but I wonder if you face an additional risk if one board is powered on before the others? Might that cause problems?

The efficiency part is rubbish.

In regards to the 2 PSUs: just plug them to the same power extension lead and flip the switch = they power exactly at the same time.

If this post helped you and you feel generous you know what to do: 1P9tXFy9bVgzrfPGeV7F8np26ZtFdCCWvz
Bogart
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September 13, 2013, 05:58:17 PM
 #9268

As much as I want September deliver to be true (I have a Day 1 Saturn order), I would have to bet on No.

Going directly from chip manufacture to board production with no testing in between is a huge risk.  The non-bitcoin ASIC-makers never do it this way.

"All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed... and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the I.R.S." - President F.D. Roosevelt, 1933
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September 13, 2013, 06:05:00 PM
 #9269

What makes you think that testing needs to be done in Sweden to make it valid?  What makes you think no testing is being done?
DeathAndTaxes
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September 13, 2013, 06:08:09 PM
 #9270

P.S. The power supply looks like a Cooler Master V1000.

Or any other model from V series, they all look the same.

For example V850


Given they recommended to user 850W I would assume they bought V850s for internal use.  I would assume they didn't buy smaller PSU for the smaller rigs and instead just plan to use 1 PSU for 1 Jupiter, 2 Saturn, or 4 Mercury.
vulgartrendkill
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September 13, 2013, 06:10:47 PM
 #9271

What makes you think that testing needs to be done in Sweden to make it valid?  What makes you think no testing is being done?

Thats what I was thinking.  Just because we havent seen the results of testing, doesn`t mean its not being done.  Sure, it`d be nice to see but then we have seen some evidence already.
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September 13, 2013, 06:23:27 PM
 #9272

If you're going to outsource things, you might as well go all the way and have completed/tested sub-assemblies delivered - just put them in cases when you receive them, connect some cables, burn them in for a couple of hours to sanity check things, then pack and ship them...  By the time you have a picture of a completed unit, you are already ready to start shipping them out the door.
vesperwillow
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September 13, 2013, 06:35:24 PM
 #9273

If you're going to outsource things, you might as well go all the way and have completed/tested sub-assemblies delivered - just put them in cases when you receive them, connect some cables, burn them in for a couple of hours to sanity check things, then pack and ship it...

I'm betting they definitely designed their product to be somewhat 'assembly-minded modular' for this reason. If they're going to do it in house, they just want to pop boxes open, connect a few things, test them, and then ship. Considering the design, it's so simple it lends itself to this by nature.

1. Mount host PCB to case.

2. Chip to PCB, Fan on Chip, Mount PCB to case. Connect serial cable to host PCB (repeat as necessary)

3. Close Case

Done. No soldering, no need for hot glue, etc.

And if they truly only need the chips to arrive, they were smart enough to get all the steps done ahead of time minus the Chip/Fan portion.


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September 13, 2013, 06:39:02 PM
 #9274

I'm hoping there is a step in there to spray-foam pack around the coolers before they close up the case, or these things are likely to get beat all-to-hell during shipping.
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September 13, 2013, 06:40:36 PM
 #9275

E-mailed KNC about pre-configuring multiple machines for hashing and this was the response. For those of us hoping for a BTC windfall during burn-in, we might be disappointed.

Quote
 
Dear Dana,

If you mention your pool worker in “My Account”, both of your miners will be pre-configured with this information.

The live net burn-in will be done by using your pool and other details that you mention in common information for pre-configuration of your miner.

The burn-in will take about 5-20 seconds.

 

Med vänlig hälsning | Best regards
Anna Jagdhar
Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253 20
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September 13, 2013, 06:47:26 PM
 #9276

I don't see how you could even tell that all 4 boards of a Jupiter were hashing in 5 seconds.
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September 13, 2013, 06:51:00 PM
 #9277

I don't see how you could even tell that all 4 boards of a Jupiter were hashing in 5 seconds.

Maybe they are just after the green light Smiley

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vesperwillow
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September 13, 2013, 06:53:23 PM
 #9278

I don't see how you could even tell that all 4 boards of a Jupiter were hashing in 5 seconds.

Well, the BFL 500GH units seem to take 18 months to do a burn in before hitting customers. 20 seconds is not so bad.

Wink

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September 13, 2013, 07:11:23 PM
 #9279

You Sir have to learn how to read correctly. You argument is invalid since both of these guys did not say those specific words in a terms of service context. IF you have those terms in your ToS, you need to have the appropriate licenses. That is not only so in the US, it's pretty much everywhere in the world.
And please note that he is not liable because he sold goods for bitcoins but because he "promised" returns of investments to his customers - which only a licensed/registered/regulateted (insert any kind of money playing thingy here) can.

No, your argument is invalid because neither you nor 'orama have pointed to any law that would make it illegal, and you never will, since there is none.

Also, these are the actual terms for the Avalon chip deal:

Quote
The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale
1 the only payment accepted is Bitcoin.
2 these chips will be available until at least end of the year, 2013.
3 spec and various information is available on the wiki
4 the chips being sold are packaged and tested.
5 the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,
6 made to order from TSMC foundry, this also means no refunds.
7 the order quantity is 10,000 chips.
8 the chips are identical to those in the Avalon units.
9 communication protocol, reference board design can be found on github.
10 everything will be open source from FPGA to PCB design.
11 30 sample chips will be provided 4 weeks into ordering per 10,000 chips.
12 we do not offer technical support of any kind, this is final.
13 if you do not know what to do with the reference design / packaged chips, please do not purchase.


I don't know where on the site they mentioned their price calculation but it's not in the ToS.

Here's the terms of sale for batch 3:

Quote
We Accept Bitcoin Only – Bitcoin allow us to collect large sum of assets in a short period of time, and due their nature the bitcoins can also be move to where they are suppose to go in a similar time frame. It also make sense as the Avalon units mine bitcoins so they should be priced as such accordingly.

No Refunds - The Avalon units are made on a built-to-order basis. This means when you place an order, your bitcoins are used to order parts to construct your Avalon Unit. Refunds therefore are impossible. Utilizing a short time frame, batch based, and built-to-order method allows to manage finances properly and reduce risk for all parties. e.g. Avalon ASIC, the re-sellers and the buyers.

No Address Change - Unless it is a special case no address change will be allowed, please allocate time correctly to handle the delivery of these units, There has been too many people attempting to sell these units and changing their shipping address. You can choose what to do with them after you receive them, but whilst they are still in our hands they will go to the address the order was originally intended for.

Limited Customer Support - The Avalon team is comprised of a small group of capable people; however, we are also extremely limited in manpower. Every one of us handles multitude of tasks, and for this reason we will have very limited customer support. No news is good news. We apologize for this, but we do not expect this situation to change.

Not Newbie Friendly - The Avalon units are designed much like a hardware development board, while it works out of the box with very little configuration it is ultimately geared towards developers and experienced miners, please do your research before purchasing. A good place to start is the Bitcoin Wiki page on Avalon.

Please read this carefully, as with all things Bitcoin one should treat this as an investment and make the decision best for you based on the liquid-able funds available at the moment when placing an order.


There's no promise of ROI in either of those terms.  The word investment does not appear.  It's not against the law to simply say the product you're selling is a "good investment" or speculate about what kind of ROI a customer might get with it. Not when selling miners, or cars, or comic books or whatever.

If you think it is, point out the actual line in the law that says it is. If you can't do that, you don't have an argument that something is illegal.

DeathAndTaxes
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September 13, 2013, 07:14:18 PM
 #9280

Hey KNC what size are the mounting holes on the PCB?  M3?
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