Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Mota]

So what is the incentive to pay for a product today? If I pay now and everybody who has paid the same amount before me gets theirs first so mine can't make it's money back, I lose.

If I pay now but other people pay for theirs in September to get them just a few days after me, it makes me wonder why I wouldn't just invest my bitcoins in ASICMINER in the meantime.  They wouldn't get any more preorders if this was the case.

So there we go.  I have ordered one Jupiter but I am on the fence on the other two that I want. Delivery in October means thousands of dollars less in profit, for the same cost.

Unless knc plans to raise the price as it gets closer to releasing? That would seem like a fair method of not making people who paid for pre orders to feel ripped off when paying a few months beforehand for something they could have waited to pay for.

If you have the money to spare for 3 Jupiters just buy bitcoins for the rest and hope that in september the btc price is higher than now. And stop crying over spilled milk. you had the chance to order 3, you blew it. same goes for everyone lse who is now crying that it is unfair. why should that be unfair? people orderer their products, they deliver in a first come first serve manner. that is standard practice and perfectly fine with everyone, excpet people who came to late and want a quick roi like you. crap like that pisses me off, pardon my french.

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[Bitcoinorama]

So what is the incentive to pay for a product today? If I pay now and everybody who has paid the same amount before me gets theirs first so mine can't make it's money back, I lose.

If I pay now but other people pay for theirs in September to get them just a few days after me, it makes me wonder why I wouldn't just invest my bitcoins in ASICMINER in the meantime.  They wouldn't get any more preorders if this was the case.

So there we go.  I have ordered one Jupiter but I am on the fence on the other two that I want. Delivery in October means thousands of dollars less in profit, for the same cost.

Unless knc plans to raise the price as it gets closer to releasing? That would seem like a fair method of not making people who paid for pre orders to feel ripped off when paying a few months beforehand for something they could have waited to pay for.

Global hashrate due to competiting offers and future BTC price is totally out of KnC's control (as it is of any manufacturer), and is a risk any investor faces when mining.

Do what you think is best, but stop whining man, it's embarrassing!

You get into Bitcoin mining believing Bitcoin has a future, which it won't unless people start accepting it as payment, far more work is needed there, than here, as is a greater potential profit in devising ways and means to accept Bitcoin as a payment for a product, or service, than there is, or will be through mining. You don't 'invest' now in mining equipment to realise immediate value. If that's what your plan is, you're a fool. ROI in days/weeks, ain't happening come September.  In my eyes BTC value will dip come September anyway as other 'wannabe investors' ditch coins to cover ROI, and the even more worrying prospect of those that took on board debt to finance. Now that...is really stupid.

Bitcoin is a project in creating a more honest financial vehicle, if you don't believe in the concept GTFO, as anything less and you'll be crying that it's a Ponzi come October and blaming everybody (probably KnC), aside taking responsibility over your own decisions.

Sounds like you haven't done enough research on the subject, you clearly don't know what you are getting into...

[Bitcoinorama]

But I wasn't crying, I don't believe in spilled milk.

My question was more along the lines of, why would somebody buy one now? Has KNC miner made enough money so they don't need to sell any more? Or are they actually trying to sell more of them because I just don't see why people would buy one now, for the same price, with it coming later.

I think mota you might have understood the opposite of what I meant.

I wasn't in any way saying if I pay today that I should get that order before the order I already paid for, that would be crazy. But it does seem like if I paid for another order today, then I would get my second unit only a few days after my first, which makes me wonder, where is my incentive to pay for one now, if knc still wants to sell them? Or more so, what was my incentive to pay for one a few weeks ago, if I can buy one today and not have it make a difference when it gets delivered.

It's nothing more than a game of risk on an emerging technology - be that ASIC development, 28nm integrated circuit development, further compounded via a currently unregulated cryptocurrency with a populist movement.

You need to determine where you stand belief wise, and how comfortable you feel about that.

Should KnC deliver on time to spec, you have a more efficient chip then what anyone else is offering, obviously risk is there. Risk is also prevalent surrounding Bitcoin adoption as a mainstream payment method, how governments intend to respond to Bitcoin and it's exchanges, and future Bitcoin price. These are all unknowns.

*If* they do succeed their product will have greater longetivity than another chip currently offered, or in development.

So really your question should be what is the point in investing in any further ASIC development now if the hashrate increases beyond profitability come October? That I cannot answer for you, I have no crystal ball...

Also, I wasn't being overtly hostile, your comment did sound like ill-informed whining, reading it again, it still does sound like you are prepared to blame a company over your own decisions, in any case there is no hard feeling on my part, just inform yourself, be confident in your own decision, and blame no one but yourself for whatever choice you make. We're all in the same boat here. I'm fully expecting more competing companies between now and September,  factored that into my investment choice prior...do not get into debt here!

Don't be afraid to post in this forum, or this thread, but please do make it proactive and helpful...

[Bitcoinorama]

Actually I did just read my OG reply, that did come across hostile, sorry!

[Bitcoinorama]

But I am still a little confused.

Okay, let's pretend I never mentioned I want to buy another two, or that I already bought one.

Alice pays $7000 on June 10th, to get a machine on September 30th.

Bob pays $7000 on September 20th to get a machine on October 5th.

Isn't Alice going to be upset, she could have left that $7000 in her ASICMINER stock and made another $1000 in dividends in that time. Or maybe she paid with a credit card and has paid huge interest, Bob has gotten the same deal but didn't have money tied up for months.

Or what if Bob pays $7000 on June 22nd.  He didn't make the June 10th deadline, so he doesn't know when his unit is coming. Should it come 12 days after Alice's? Or will it come the day after Alice's? Or will it come a month after?

That is all fine and dandy, obviously the smart thing for Bob to do is not buy one till September under that situation.

BUT I guess my real question is: doesn't KNC still have to make money, sell orders in the mean time? It is all fine and dandy to say Bob missed the boat, but it doesn't help KNC any.

Now we could all be hostile and say I am whining or something. Yes I realize 28nm blah blah blah. My question is what is Bob's incentive to pay now, compared to later.

Without people paying now there are no non reoccurring engineering costs raised to fund any development, there for no 28nm ASICs and no KnC. September's a long way off in Bitcoin ASIC development. Some may choose the wait, and the queue will undoubtedly be longer then...it's very unlikely any order Bob places on the 20th Sept will arrive October 5th. Scaling of production occurs incrementally over time at a sustainable pace...

Ultimately they've only received funding from peeps that kept their eyes open in this forum so far. May be a few other places, so there obviously was a sudden land rush, but over the course of the next few weeks, perhaps as KnC provide more evidence, more people will join that queue, some with bigger orders. Perhaps a load of disgruntled BFL and Avalon bulk chip buyers, ok maybe not Avalon as that will be hard to refund.

[Mota]

But I wasn't crying, I don't believe in spilled milk.

My question was more along the lines of, why would somebody buy one now? Has KNC miner made enough money so they don't need to sell any more? Or are they actually trying to sell more of them because I just don't see why people would buy one now, for the same price, with it coming later.

I think mota you might have understood the opposite of what I meant.

I wasn't in any way saying if I pay today that I should get that order before the order I already paid for, that would be crazy. But it does seem like if I paid for another order today, then I would get my second unit only a few days after my first, which makes me wonder, where is my incentive to pay for one now, if knc still wants to sell them? Or more so, what was my incentive to pay for one a few weeks ago, if I can buy one today and not have it make a difference when it gets delivered.

Okay, in that case it seems I have to apologize as well. But try to read into the topic before posting such comments please - if asked wrong questions can have a second meaning behind them, and your sounded like whining when first read.
Your incentive for buying/ not buying one is completely your own, they have nothing to do with it. As does the delivery time. The preorders were paid as is because of the payments to chipsuppliers etc. NOT because people get their units faster; rather that they can get them. I expect them to order more chips than units paid for in order to cope with more orders. But you have to ask yourself if those are enough if you want to pay in september. If they are not enough you have to wait for the second batch of chips, which will take way longer than october.

[Bitcoinorama]

So... On another topic you want to know why I am so sold on the Jupiter? Heat. Short of gpu mining there is nothing that even comes close to that sort of power consumption in a single unit.

1 kw of electricity is about 3400 btu. Doesn't matter if that 1000w is going through an ASIC or baseboard heater or whatever.

I hate chainsaws, but have told my parents they would never have to pay for heat, so this year I am going to upgrade their electrical system, then use my Jupiter + 2000 watts of other mining hardware to heat their house.

They will have to open windows when they are too warm, they will love it.

Then when the units get unprofitable, by next winter or whatever, if it isn't free heat they are producing, it will certainly be cheap heat, and ideally I could fit them with a thermostat.

Perhaps this is the wrong place to talk about this.

Owa, I know gpu farms get hot, but I think it will be difficult to heat a house with ASICs!!

As Sam said these things need to be operable 24/7 in locations like Dubai. Central heating usage in summer is not what they're famed for in Saudi Arabia!!

I mean at best I imagine a mildly warm box, not a replacement electric heater...

[DPoS]

If you want to game a system, any system, you can dig enough to do it.  Kncminer rollout is no exception

But the selective thinking is overboard here.. People believe only the info that supports their fear and anger

They say they aren't doing batches but that can mean different things to different people.. Instead of monthly batches (or more) like Avalon, kncminer might be doing weekly order processing

And as I said earlier, everyone believed this part of what kncminer says since it supports their fears as the latest nervous nelly on this thread is worrying about.  The ordering could very well resemble batch delivery once this is in motion

[Bitcoinorama]

If you want to game a system, any system, you can dig enough to do it.  Kncminer rollout is no exception

But the selective thinking is overboard here.. People believe only the info that supports their fear and anger

They say they aren't doing batches but that can mean different things to different people.. Instead of monthly batches (or more) like Avalon, kncminer might be doing weekly order processing

And as I said earlier, everyone believed this part of what kncminer says since it supports their fears as the latest nervous nelly on this thread is worrying about.  The ordering could very well resemble batch delivery once this is in motion

At the same time KnC what their customers to profit, as they want repeat custom, it's how KnC will profit, they have every motivation to remain competitive...

[Grinny]

@kncminer:

In another thread I read about KNC opening a share on Bitfunder soon..?
Is this just a rumour or can you confirm this?

[DPoS]

Actually we should be questioning why you hate chainsaws...they are one of the top 5 all time contributions of man along with bacon, scotch, shotguns and stripper polls

Everything you say is suspect from this point forward

[Bitcoinorama]

Actually we should be questioning why you hate chainsaws...they are one of the top 5 all time contributions of man along with bacon, scotch, shotguns and stripper polls

Everything you say is suspect from this point forward

Hey! There's no room for Bitcoin in your top 5!!

[titomane]

Actually we should be questioning why you hate chainsaws...they are one of the top 5 all time contributions of man along with bacon, scotch, shotguns and stripper polls

Everything you say is suspect from this point forward

Hey! There's no room for Bitcoin in your top 5!!

Bitcoinorama:
What do you know about this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.2520


Thanks

[Bitcoinorama]

Actually we should be questioning why you hate chainsaws...they are one of the top 5 all time contributions of man along with bacon, scotch, shotguns and stripper polls

Everything you say is suspect from this point forward

Hey! There's no room for Bitcoin in your top 5!!

Bitcoinorama:
What do you know about this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.2520


Thanks

What should I know about it? I don't know anything about it. Are you talking about receiving an email? You just signed upto receive them, didn't you?

[joae1975]

By the time sept 5th rolls around, new orders will probably be pushed past February.

[Bitcoinorama]

So, to get back on topic, I do actually want to discuss kncminer, not only with the interest of buying more, but I want them to succeed, so I feel there are some things to talk about.

Looking through 129 pages of information to find out the actual product specs doesn't seem right.

According to the website, a Jupiter will:

- Be about as big as a two man tent, and weigh about the same amount too.
- start off at 350GH/s but then (and you can't deny this implication, wether typo or not, it is still on the website) you get an extra 30% on top of that. Say what you want, that is how I understand what is worded there.
- water cooled

I don't even care if it is water cooled or not, but why does it say it is if through reading through these 129 pages, I find out differently? How long would it take to make it right, compared to the disappointment that could be caused by changing things first, but even more so, chainging things and making hard to find out about?

Yes you are saying you should do you're due diligence and all this, but if they want to sell units, shouldn't professionalism be seen on all fronts?

Please take my comments as constructive criticism rather than an attack, or consider me I'll informed and educate me.

If your saying you read through this thread, you would know the answers.

2 man tent? Pfff...

[jmaccoin]

If your saying you read through this thread, you would know the answers.

2 man tent? Pfff...

Worst PR ever.

[titomane]

Actually we should be questioning why you hate chainsaws...they are one of the top 5 all time contributions of man along with bacon, scotch, shotguns and stripper polls

Everything you say is suspect from this point forward

Hey! There's no room for Bitcoin in your top 5!!

Bitcoinorama:
What do you know about this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.2520


Thanks

What should I know about it? I don't know anything about it. Are you talking about receiving an email? You just signed upto receive them, didn't you?

copy the wrong link. I meant the question about ordering chips and expected delivery date. Have you received a response?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237114.msg2508344#msg2508344


Thanks

[Bitcoinorama]

If your saying you read through this thread, you would know the answers.

2 man tent? Pfff...

Worst PR ever.

Sorry, you're assuming I'm their PR?! Now I know you haven't read this thread.

[Bitcoinorama]

Actually we should be questioning why you hate chainsaws...they are one of the top 5 all time contributions of man along with bacon, scotch, shotguns and stripper polls

Everything you say is suspect from this point forward

Hey! There's no room for Bitcoin in your top 5!!

Bitcoinorama:
What do you know about this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.2520


Thanks

What should I know about it? I don't know anything about it. Are you talking about receiving an email? You just signed upto receive them, didn't you?

copy the wrong link. I meant the question about ordering chips and expected delivery date. Have you received a response?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237114.msg2508344#msg2508344


Thanks

Only that next week this will be answered, there's a progress report next week. This was mentioned in the thread about PSU choice.