Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[rizzman]

Noticed how BFL have suddenly picked up shipments the last couple of weeks, they have been shipping about 2 weeks worth of 50-60GH/s Single SC orders each day. That's a lot of GH/s they had thousands of those on pre-order. That will be a big part of the net hash increase we had this month, add KNCminer to that and omg.

yeah, I have also been curious of this new revelation as well. I think it confirms what I originally thought, that BFL has been withholding machines purposely to influence difficulty increase. now that the new kid on the block is getting close two competing, now they open the floodgates and let everybody have their 1 year late order in attempts 2 spike the difficulty and scare investors away from the competition. Is actually a pretty smart move business wise

Huh? So instead of releasing units early which would increase BFL sales, decrease refunds, decrease lawsuits, and decrease competitor sales earlier they were holding back why? If they had been sitting around why not release all their units when KNC opened their order book?

Let's face it, it's just taken this long for them to ramp up production to a reasonable level.

I would be willing to believe it if it werent for the fact that they went from doing a week of orders over a months period to doing a month's worth of orders in a day in what seems to be an overnight transformation.  A coincidence,  I think not.

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[plasmoske]

Heh shitty how they try to edit the news like that without any mention of an edit.

[Its About Sharing]

But, I think KNC Miner is going to be ok. Trying to limit the number of miners produced was a nice first step.

When did they limit the number of miners produced? They have been trying to sell as many as possible. They are bidding thousands of dollars every week to advertise on this forum. They started a reseller program just a few weeks ago to get other people to sell their products for them.

And if you listen to the interview with Sam posted a few pages back, he said if other asics manufacturers keep pumping out units (which they of course will), KNC wil continue to keep pumping out units (i.e. not taking the 3 months break they spoke about).

They have done nothing to limit the number of miners produced - exactly the opposite. What IS limiting how many they can produce -
- people are priced out of the market. People can afford a few gpu's, but a lot less can afford to have thousands tied up in pre-order for months.
- people doing the maths on difficulty levels and realising they aren't going to make their money back.

I was talking about the bolded. Thanks for the update and I haven't listened to the interview but was aware of the point you mentioned - heard it on the LTB podcast I believe.
The next few days will be telling. I still have hope for the European companies like KNC Miner and Bitfury. The latter really limited September deliveries and I believe they delivered.

Now, regarding limiting the amount of miners - 2 issues here. 1st - Limiting them regarding the above bolded and 2nd - Limiting them according to production limits. The 1st was a nice gesture, they did do that as ridiculous as it may have been as no one is expecting the competition to slow down (I do wonder if KNC had good intentions though). The 2nd, we don't know but will find out in time. Clearly here, these companies (hopefully) are not going to do what BFL did and is doing and just keep queues open and long. Really sad situation there.

No arguing that the pre-order thing needs to be redone. It is nice to see some companies offering more GHash/s (KNC I think mentioned this, not sure) and some other companies are offering insurance or partial refunds. If miners are only offered when they are in stock, I hope there is a fair way of getting them. Not sure what that would be though...

IAS

[timmmers]

Noticed how BFL have suddenly picked up shipments the last couple of weeks, they have been shipping about 2 weeks worth of 50-60GH/s Single SC orders each day. That's a lot of GH/s they had thousands of those on pre-order. That will be a big part of the net hash increase we had this month, add KNCminer to that and omg.

yeah, I have also been curious of this new revelation as well. I think it confirms what I originally thought, that BFL has been withholding machines purposely to influence difficulty increase. now that the new kid on the block is getting close two competing, now they open the floodgates and let everybody have their 1 year late order in attempts 2 spike the difficulty and scare investors away from the competition. Is actually a pretty smart move business wise

Huh? So instead of releasing units early which would increase BFL sales, decrease refunds, decrease lawsuits, and decrease competitor sales earlier they were holding back why? If they had been sitting around why not release all their units when KNC opened their order book?

Let's face it, it's just taken this long for them to ramp up production to a reasonable level.

If they were willing to ship out of line when people attempted chargebacks, they were probably also willing to accept 6 figure bribes to move MiniRigs out the back door when the difficulty was below 10m.  I don't trust BFL one bit.

Network protection for themselves while a tiny 20TH operation on the side is running is also possible.  Or a combination of all of the above.

I personally think the ASIC generation has screwed over the small miner for good.  BFL was the last shot at making a decent return for yourself, but they kept it all.  Now the difficulty is going to run away from everyone.  If you can't build your own, you have no advantage.  Why would people be honest and ship money printing boxes when there are so many sneaky things you could do with that?  I'm not gonna jump the gun and say KnC is doing this, but people really need to be careful.  I would get refunds if you can.  There is just too much hashrate coming online now.  November is many difficulty changes away.

Well said. I really gave BFL the benefit of the doubt and for a long while. I read this thread and seeing the owner Josh try to defend himself (and attack others) as well as seeing people put him in his place with his own words, really helped me to see them for what they are. Title (LOL) - How about upping the Ghash/s on units to compensate for delays? https://forums.butterflylabs.com/post-sales-customer-service/4943-how-about-upping-ghash-s-units-compensate-delays.html

I understand people were/are trying to make money with the rigs (and also support the network, have a hobby, etc.) but seeing people having to wait over 1 year for their equipment is just sad. Basically, BFL shouldn't have taken so many pre-orders. I'm sure when this gets to court (and it will), we will see just how far over the line BFL went. I think we will see the same thing with Avalon and Yifu.

But, I think KNC Miner is going to be ok. Trying to limit the number of miners produced was a nice first step. Better communication is another. We can only hope now for the next few days. But KNC, BitFury, etc. are in another class compared to BFL and Avalon. ( aka - Cutting off your nose to Spite your Face.)

I thought that too. Limiting miners produced and supporting their customer base was a nice idea. Then came CHINA. No-one opens up in China to limit sales. (Nor do they start referal schemes). We think we have an idea of the impact of KnC rigs coming online, but are the chinese sales included in that, or even in the same order list as the ones we're on? They could be completely separate and massive, I hope not for our sake.  No real word from them for a while at this crucial point is annoying too, the silence is deafening. Which would you be doing, posting pics of racks being assembled, or the hosting faciilty ready to rock and roll? Easy answer for me, I'd be happy to share that after all the work I'd done.  Even if we can't really do much about the production/delivery but wait, they still haven't said anything about the power supplies they recommend or that paperclip bullshit, or the interface for the miners or any manual ...easy things to do and helpful especially to new miners. All ASIC manufacturers seem to hit the point when they have the money safe in the bank where they don't give a  toss about customers anymore and assume an air of arrogance towards them. KnC were never like this, but a lot of the stuff we've learned from them has been the result of customers and forum members contacting them and asking questions then reporting back here or prompting them to make a statement.

The whole industry has an air of arrogance. "Pay your money and STFU and wait" kind of thing. People will say that Apple don't release daily reports about new products...but I'd say that you don't miss a few grand of income when Apple deliver your iThingy a month late. This industry is unique as far as time sensitivity is concerned. IF a builder gave you an estimate, took your money and acted in the same way he'd be called a cowboy and you'd be dragging him through court or worse not making excuses on his behalf.

[dwdoc]

Noticed how BFL have suddenly picked up shipments the last couple of weeks, they have been shipping about 2 weeks worth of 50-60GH/s Single SC orders each day. That's a lot of GH/s they had thousands of those on pre-order. That will be a big part of the net hash increase we had this month, add KNCminer to that and omg.

yeah, I have also been curious of this new revelation as well. I think it confirms what I originally thought, that BFL has been withholding machines purposely to influence difficulty increase. now that the new kid on the block is getting close two competing, now they open the floodgates and let everybody have their 1 year late order in attempts 2 spike the difficulty and scare investors away from the competition. Is actually a pretty smart move business wise

Huh? So instead of releasing units early which would increase BFL sales, decrease refunds, decrease lawsuits, and decrease competitor sales earlier they were holding back why? If they had been sitting around why not release all their units when KNC opened their order book?

Let's face it, it's just taken this long for them to ramp up production to a reasonable level.

I would be willing to believe it if it werent for the fact that they went from doing a week of orders over a months period to doing a month's worth of orders in a day in what seems to be an overnight transformation.  A coincidence,  I think not.

Coincident with what? If they had ramped up a month ago they they would have hurt KnCminer and Bitfury device buyers worse.
On the other hand if you are saying that they are especially motivated to ramp up now to beat KnCminer to market I would buy that.

[The Avenger]

I thought that too. Limiting miners produced and supporting their customer base was a nice idea. Then came CHINA. No-one opens up in China to limit sales.

I forgot to mention China. You are exactly right. They are previewing their miner next week in China, and they aren't going to ship until next Feburary/March to allow the people who invested in them first and got them off the ground a reasonable time to make some coin? BS. Unit's will be flying out the door asap. But maybe KNC think bitcoin mining in China doesn't effect bitcoin miners in Europe Yeah right.

No real word from them for a while at this crucial point is annoying too, the silence is deafening.

Totally agreed. One news update in the last 11 days! Totally fucking disgraceful and disrespectful to the people who gave them millions in interest free loans to start their company.

Although KNC were good about issuing refunds etc, China & keeping everyone in the dark are the sort of things I've been least impressed by.

[rolling]

I thought that too. Limiting miners produced and supporting their customer base was a nice idea. Then came CHINA. No-one opens up in China to limit sales.

I forgot to mention China. You are exactly right. They are previewing their miner next week in China, and they aren't going to ship until next Feburary/March to allow the people who invested in them first and got them off the ground a reasonable time to make some coin? BS. Unit's will be flying out the door asap. But maybe KNC think bitcoin mining in China doesn't effect bitcoin miners in Europe Yeah right.

No real word from them for a while at this crucial point is annoying too, the silence is deafening.

Totally agreed. One news update in the last 11 days! Totally fucking disgraceful and disrespectful to the people who gave them millions in interest free loans to start their company.

Although KNC were good about issuing refunds etc, China & keeping everyone in the dark are the sort of things I've been least impressed by.

+1

[coda]

Hi everybody,

We are Swedish miners that are producing our own ASIC miners to strengthen the market and avoid monopoly.
Our company kncminer is pleased to announce the opening of a brand new web shop dedicated to the online sale of Bitcoin hardware to the international community, www.kncminer.com.

A lot of scam sites are appearing every day and we are not one of them, therefore we will not take any orders and are only registering interest.

We will in the upcoming weeks opening our order book to allow the purchase of our first set of ASIC miners. They are in the early stages of development now and will be ready in the summer of 2013 (yes in just a few months)
Register an account now it’s completely free and if you subscribe to our newsletter we will alert you the moment we open the order books for entry and other information around the ASIC products.
If you have any questions we will be happy to answer them.

Happy mining

so ...

first,

they say "summer 2013" (very interesting...)

then "end of summer" (less interesting...)

and now, summer has ended (21/09 is the end !)
so we are in autumn, and no miners ... (less and less interesting now...)

last "promises" were end of september ....
if it's on monday or tuesday, it could be ok, but it's pretty close the fail also !!
it is playing with the words i think...not really fair and respectful...

wait and see ...

but i'm agree KNC should do something for the early buyers cause the
first and initial promise, wich brings a lot of people and $ in the story
(and make the things happens) is not done !

the only cool thing for the moment is the bank account of knc
people who ordered and trust them, start to see plans going into smoke...

"happy mining" they say ...

[Trongersoll]

I've been quiet here, just watching all the noise.

I worked for 27 years as a software engineer. During that time our company never delivered on or before deadline. There was a school of thought that said no matter how long you make the schedule, the people will stretch out their work to fill it. So, it became tradition to make schedules too short, knowing that they would be missed, just to insure that things got done as fast as possible. Sad I know.

So, when i see deadlines missed here, i'm not surprised. Personally, i feel that any deadline that is met +- two weeks is quite an accomplishment. It seems that there are a lot of people here who take pleasure in seeing others fail. No matter what anyone says in this thread, it is going to take as long as it takes. And for those who think they are all that because they said someone wouldn't meet a deadline and they didn't, lets see you do better.  

KNC appears to be doing the best they can, give them credit for that and not their lack of accurate schedule making skills.

[The Avenger]

And to add just one more thing. Their original idea was to treat their customers well, so they stay loyal to KNC and would keep coming back and ordering more. Sam said in the interview they wanted to keep their customers, rather than going out looking for new ones all the time.

I'd say about a month ago, this idea was scrapped. They are now only going to pursue new customers. They realised old customers ain't going to make enough back from their miners to reinvest. So it only makes sense to pursue new customers, new markets. Hence China.

They are doing nothing to protect their original investors. Chopping the warranty down to 1 year was a finger to us all.

If they are so passionate about us making a return, they should extend their warranty to regular 2 year consumer warranty. Sam says they sell to the general public, so it should be that anyway. Take some long term responsibility for their products and customers.

I'm pretty sure over two years, everyone can make their money back. 1 year on bitcoin, then 1 year on alts. If we knew our miners would be kept in full working order for 2 years, we'd be properly taken care of.

[KS]

It was never on the table. It's all "marketing". They're the kind of ppl to go for the quick buck.

[shibelius]

hello. pls. why is my status on hold? i paid all. Mercuri+upgrade saturn =4204 USD+VAT 792 USD = 4996 USD
..and KNC sent today another mail,..pay mooor VAT 429.60 USD?.. why???
I'm from Slovakia, VAT is 20%, no 30% !

MAIL FROM KNC 7.august.2013
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................
Hi David,

We added Slovakian VAT to your orders #3602 and #4900
Please make a payment of 792 USD extra and mark the payment with “VAT for #3602 and #4900”

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks,
Carl
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................

OK, i paid.

MAIL FROM KNC 27. september.2013
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

Hi,

We have checked your order and we can see that the VAT has not been paid. For your order to be valid we would need you to pay $ 429.60 USD

You can pay the outstanding amount via PayPal to info@kncminer.com and include your order number 3602 as a comment / note so that we can track the payment to your order.

If you cannot pay via PayPal we can also accept a bank transfer to:

Account Name: KNCMINER AB
IBAN: SE1850000000054238202171
BIC: ESSESESS
Bank Name: SEB
Bank Address: SEB, St: Eriksgatan 32, 112 34 STOCKHOLM/SWEDEN
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........
OMG WTF??!
I sent a few emails/sms..no reply and number +46 8559 253 20 does not work all day!!

[bobsag3]

And to add just one more thing. Their original idea was to treat their customers well, so they stay loyal to KNC and would keep coming back and ordering more. Sam said in the interview they wanted to keep their customers, rather than going out looking for new ones all the time.

I'd say about a month ago, this idea was scrapped. They are now only going to pursue new customers. They realised old customers ain't going to make enough back from their miners to reinvest. So it only makes sense to pursue new customers, new markets. Hence China.

They are doing nothing to protect their original investors. Chopping the warranty down to 1 year was a finger to us all.

If they are so passionate about us making a return, they should extend their warranty to regular 2 year consumer warranty. Sam says they sell to the general public, so it should be that anyway. Take some long term responsibility for their products and customers.

I'm pretty sure over two years, everyone can make their money back. 1 year on bitcoin, then 1 year on alts. If we knew our miners would be kept in full working order for 2 years, we'd be properly taken care of.

Doesnt the EU have something with minimum warenties for consumer goods? I know apple got into trouble for it but Im not a lawyer so couldnt speak to it.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm

[Bogart]

I worked for 27 years as a software engineer. During that time our company never delivered on or before deadline.

Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter's_law

I saw about 10 years of software engineering myself.  This certainly always held true for our teams.

[KS]

hello. pls. why is my status on hold? i paid all. Mercuri+upgrade saturn =4204 USD+VAT 792 USD = 4996 USD
..and KNC sent today another mail,..pay mooor VAT 429.60 USD?.. why???
I'm from Slovakia, VAT is 20%, no 30% !

MAIL FROM KNC 7.august.2013
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................
Hi David,

We added Slovakian VAT to your orders #3602 and #4900
Please make a payment of 792 USD extra and mark the payment with “VAT for #3602 and #4900”

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks,
Carl
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................

OK, i paid.

MAIL FROM KNC 27. september.2013
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

Hi,

We have checked your order and we can see that the VAT has not been paid. For your order to be valid we would need you to pay $ 429.60 USD

You can pay the outstanding amount via PayPal to info@kncminer.com and include your order number 3602 as a comment / note so that we can track the payment to your order.

If you cannot pay via PayPal we can also accept a bank transfer to:

Account Name: KNCMINER AB
IBAN: SE1850000000054238202171
BIC: ESSESESS
Bank Name: SEB
Bank Address: SEB, St: Eriksgatan 32, 112 34 STOCKHOLM/SWEDEN
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........
OMG WTF??!
I sent a few emails/sms..no reply and number +46 8559 253 20 does not work all day!!

Send them a scan of the proof of payment of the 792USD?

(Is this the KnC support thread now?)

[shibelius]

hello. pls. why is my status on hold? i paid all. Mercuri+upgrade saturn =4204 USD+VAT 792 USD = 4996 USD
..and KNC sent today another mail,..pay mooor VAT 429.60 USD?.. why???
I'm from Slovakia, VAT is 20%, no 30% !

MAIL FROM KNC 7.august.2013
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................
Hi David,

We added Slovakian VAT to your orders #3602 and #4900
Please make a payment of 792 USD extra and mark the payment with “VAT for #3602 and #4900”

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks,
Carl
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................

OK, i paid.

MAIL FROM KNC 27. september.2013
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

Hi,

We have checked your order and we can see that the VAT has not been paid. For your order to be valid we would need you to pay $ 429.60 USD

You can pay the outstanding amount via PayPal to info@kncminer.com and include your order number 3602 as a comment / note so that we can track the payment to your order.

If you cannot pay via PayPal we can also accept a bank transfer to:

Account Name: KNCMINER AB
IBAN: SE1850000000054238202171
BIC: ESSESESS
Bank Name: SEB
Bank Address: SEB, St: Eriksgatan 32, 112 34 STOCKHOLM/SWEDEN
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........
OMG WTF??!
I sent a few emails/sms..no reply and number +46 8559 253 20 does not work all day!!

Send them a scan of the proof of payment of the 792USD?

(Is this the KnC support thread now?)

of course

[KS]

And to add just one more thing. Their original idea was to treat their customers well, so they stay loyal to KNC and would keep coming back and ordering more. Sam said in the interview they wanted to keep their customers, rather than going out looking for new ones all the time.

I'd say about a month ago, this idea was scrapped. They are now only going to pursue new customers. They realised old customers ain't going to make enough back from their miners to reinvest. So it only makes sense to pursue new customers, new markets. Hence China.

They are doing nothing to protect their original investors. Chopping the warranty down to 1 year was a finger to us all.

If they are so passionate about us making a return, they should extend their warranty to regular 2 year consumer warranty. Sam says they sell to the general public, so it should be that anyway. Take some long term responsibility for their products and customers.

I'm pretty sure over two years, everyone can make their money back. 1 year on bitcoin, then 1 year on alts. If we knew our miners would be kept in full working order for 2 years, we'd be properly taken care of.

Doesnt the EU have something with minimum warenties for consumer goods? I know apple got into trouble for it but Im not a lawyer so couldnt speak to it.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm

Again with that thing.

You "signed" a business contract, you're NOT covered by consumer law. Read your contract (i.e. their T&C), your rights are mostly in there. Anything you don't like: lawsuit.

[The Avenger]

And to add just one more thing. Their original idea was to treat their customers well, so they stay loyal to KNC and would keep coming back and ordering more. Sam said in the interview they wanted to keep their customers, rather than going out looking for new ones all the time.

I'd say about a month ago, this idea was scrapped. They are now only going to pursue new customers. They realised old customers ain't going to make enough back from their miners to reinvest. So it only makes sense to pursue new customers, new markets. Hence China.

They are doing nothing to protect their original investors. Chopping the warranty down to 1 year was a finger to us all.

If they are so passionate about us making a return, they should extend their warranty to regular 2 year consumer warranty. Sam says they sell to the general public, so it should be that anyway. Take some long term responsibility for their products and customers.

I'm pretty sure over two years, everyone can make their money back. 1 year on bitcoin, then 1 year on alts. If we knew our miners would be kept in full working order for 2 years, we'd be properly taken care of.

Doesnt the EU have something with minimum warenties for consumer goods? I know apple got into trouble for it but Im not a lawyer so couldnt speak to it.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm

This has been discussed a lot of times before. KNC terms and conditions say they sell only to businesses. That way, they can offer a limited 1 year warranty rather than the normal 2 year consumer warranty a consumer is entitled to.

I think it's really pissed me off hearing him say "We are selling to the general public, anyone can buy from us" and then their t&c's, written long before this interview, say the exact opposite:
"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."
and
" 6. Limited Warranty
6.1  KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery"

[KS]

@shibelius: do you mean you sent it already or you will send it?

[Trongersoll]

I worked for 27 years as a software engineer. During that time our company never delivered on or before deadline.

Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter's_law

I saw about 10 years of software engineering myself.  This certainly always held true for our teams.

I was once tasked with coming up with a schedule for a task. I came up with 1500 hours using the tools we were supposed to use to do schedules. One of the hardware guys, who liked to dabble in software, looked at my schedule and claimed he could do it in half the time. I refused to shorten my schedule and was taken off the project. My replacement came up with 1200 hours. When the job was done, it took 1800 hours.