Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[El duderino_]

Todays session ended, Exhausted, HODLsleep and HAT change needed.

Gonna catch up with the thread tomorrow.

Good night my fellow BTC-brothers

[1680252886]

1680252886

[1680252886]

1680252886

[1680252886]

1680252886

[Last of the V8s]

That’s all very good and well.  But the only alt coins that have shown any value to date so far are stable coins.  And even they are quite dubious.  Tether and Dai have shown us that current stable coins are not stable.  They had one job....

Until we have at least one alt coin which has achieved something, I’m afraid your argument has no practical application, and is of theoretical interest only.

They relieved the unwary of their bitcoins and sent them to the likes of eduffield, fluffypony, coblee, bytemaster and the other worthy gentlemen.
They achieved that much.

[GreatArkansas]

Just got home from our province just to vote for Midterm election, $6,100 before I left, and now I'm back BTC already reached $8,000. 

[toknormal]

That’s all very good and well.  But the only alt coins that have shown any value to date so far are stable coins.

What exactly do you mean by "value" ? Value to you ? Value to the market ? Productivity value ?

More importantly...does it matter ? These discussions inevitably end up like an order book = there's somebody parked at every level from zero to infinity. Commentators in the "fiat world" argue bitcoin is useless and valueless just as many bitcoin holders argue altcoins are. Moon Coin from way back in 2014 has no current value. All its value is now in bitcoin because that was the only pairing it ever had. But it was where the "value" went first. Those people bought mooncoin, not bitcoin because many of them would have far less bitcoin today if they'd bought bitcoin first.

Similarly, stocks in typewriter manufacturers from the 1960's have zero value. Their value moved into more permanent vehicles whether that be the next short-lived stock, cash or gold. It doesn't matter because the value was captured and eventually moved down Exter's pyramid.

My point is that all this talk of "alts have no value" is pointless. You might as well say bitcoin has no value because if someone puts their money in Moon Coin first rather then bitcoin, it doesn't. Most people want to earn money quickly, not slowly and reserve assets have never been - nor ever will be - the front door to wealth.

They're where wealth ends up when it matures to a certain stage. That's why most people invest in companies rather than gold and it's why bitcoin needs a healthy altcoin market that's - ideally - multiples of its own size to grow long term.

[HairyMaclairy]

By “value” I mean a use case, where the coins have been used for their use case.  

Other than stable coins, no alt coin has ever been used for its intended use case in any meaningful way.  

If they don’t have a viable use case, then they don’t have any value.

[Last of the V8s]

edit: Justin Sun face mat Consensus pee bounty now up to $70 https://twitter.com/StopAndDecrypt/status/1128441005374619648

[Torque]

My point is that all this talk of "alts have no value" is pointless. You might as well say bitcoin has no value because if someone puts their money in Moon Coin first rather then bitcoin, it doesn't. Most people want to earn money quickly, not slowly and reserve assets have never been - nor ever will be - the front door to wealth.

They're where wealth ends up when it matures to a certain stage. That's why most people invest in companies rather than gold and it's why bitcoin needs a healthy altcoin market that's - ideally - multiples of its own size to grow long term.

So your argument is that altcoins have "value" simply to make short term wealth gains in, instead of buying Bitcoin? Really?

You're missing the whole point of Bitcoin in the first place. SMH

[toknormal]

By “value” I mean a use case, where the coins have been used for their use case.  

Other than stable coins, no alt coin has ever been used for its intended use case in any meaningful way.  

If they don’t have a viable use case, then they don’t have any value.

LoL. Do you actually see how hilarious that sounds coming from a bitcoin promoter ?

You think that bitcoin has any more of a "use case" or is being used for its "intended use case" ? We're 10 years in. What's the Whitepaper called ? "A Peer to Peer Electronic Cash System" ?

Look around you. What did you use the last time you went to the supermarket ? Bought something on Amazon ? Made a withdrawal from the bank ?

Get real. Altcoins are an $80 Billion market - that's quite a lot of "no value". The words pot and kettle spring to mind when people from either camp accuse the other of "not having any value". Most alts are doing what they were designed to do which is more than can be said for bitcoin. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a role, but everything in this entire sector is far more mutually dependent than many of their respective fanboys give credit for.

[Searing]

That’s all very good and well.  But the only alt coins that have shown any value to date so far are stable coins.  And even they are quite dubious.  Tether and Dai have shown us that current stable coins are not stable.  They had one job....

Until we have at least one alt coin which has achieved something, I’m afraid your argument has no practical application, and is of theoretical interest only.

They relieved the unwary of their bitcoins and sent them to the likes of eduffield, fluffypony, coblee, bytemaster and the other worthy gentlemen.
They achieved that much.

Works great, when I used to mine altcoins and convert to BTC, for a few years...that boat may have sailed however in the USA and home mining wise now

[toknormal]

So your argument is that altcoins have "value" simply to make short term wealth gains in, instead of buying Bitcoin? Really?

You're missing the whole point of Bitcoin in the first place. SMH

No. That isn't what I'm arguing as you'll see if you care to go back and re-read my long post. I'm making the point that reserve assets are not wealth creators, they're wealth maintainers, and that there is a hierarchy of monetary functions and assets that are shorter term and more utilitarian in nature which serve to feed value into those reserve assets. By analogy, bitcoin needs such an ecosystem to survive and grow long term and it needs it specifically in the form of a diversity of trustless blockchain assets as we're seeing emerge.

I'm also making the point that most bitcoin "maximalists" have a flawed appraisal of the "bitcoin dominance" metric. They think it's good when bitcoin dominance is high and rising when in fact it's bad - a bit like a tree loosing all its branches and leaves and having only the trunk sticking out of the ground is bad.

[HairyMaclairy]

By “value” I mean a use case, where the coins have been used for their use case.  

Other than stable coins, no alt coin has ever been used for its intended use case in any meaningful way.  

If they don’t have a viable use case, then they don’t have any value.

LoL. Do you actually see how hilarious that sounds coming from a bitcoin promoter ?

You think that bitcoin has any more of a "use case" or is being used for its "intended use case" ? We're 10 years in. What's the Whitepaper called ? "A Peer to Peer Electronic Cash System" ?

Look around you. What did you use the last time you went to the supermarket ? Bought something on Amazon ? Made a withdrawal from the bank ?

Get real. Altcoins are an $80 Billion market - that's quite a lot of "no value". The words pot and kettle spring to mind when people from either camp accuse the other of "not having any value". Most alts are doing what they were designed to do which is more than can be said for bitcoin. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a role, but everything in this entire sector is far more mutually dependent than many of their respective fanboys give credit for.

Bitcoin is a store of value.  It is working quite well at that.  The market is deep and liquid

Have a look at the order books. That so called $80 billion alt coin market is illiquid and shallow. 

[soxxx]

So if we break 8.5k its likely going to 10k?

[jojo69]

What "use case" do you think bitcoin solves out of interest ? (Apart from making coin-grabbing early adopters rich)

so you really don´t know it yet? you been in this forum since sub $100 prices. you did not understand it back then, that is why you are no early investor. nothing to be ashamed of. but after 6 years and 6000 posts...    i see...

how about:
permissionless, trustless, uncensorable, borderless secure and safe transfer of value.
unconfiscateable, immutable, truly decentralized and safe store of value.

lots of slick buzzphrases and matching graphic elements

I feel like I was just sold a shamwow

[GreatArkansas]

So if we break 8.5k its likely going to 10k?

It's possible but I would like to see first some retracement before going to $10,000 based on previous resistance and support.

[Torque]

Bitcoin is a store of value.  It is working quite well at that.  The market is deep and liquid

Have a look at the order books. That so called $80 billion alt coin market is illiquid and shallow. 

Was literally going to log in to say this but you beat me to it Hairy

[toknormal]

Have a look at the order books. That so called $80 billion alt coin market is illiquid and shallow.  

Not shallow enough for them not to account for an equivalent ratio in trading volume - nearly half bitcoin's. Also, bitcoin accounts for only 7% of the transaction count in the top 15 chains alone.

So most of that trading "depth" doesn't even manifest on a blockchain but in a security that inherits its value and trades off-chain. So bitcoin is very much not seeing any use case, at least as far as its design case is concerned. That is one of the reasons an alt market exists.

Meanwhile blockchains exist that no only trade on-chain but also host other markets on chain. Those are use cases that are direct, not "store of value".

Like I say, I'm not knocking bitcoin - I own it. But the maximalist cool-aid is well flat and it's time people realised where their bread is actually buttered IMO.

[arcmetal]

What "use case" do you think bitcoin solves out of interest ? (Apart from making coin-grabbing early adopters rich)

so you really don´t know it yet? you been in this forum since sub $100 prices. you did not understand it back then, that is why you are no early investor. nothing to be ashamed of. but after 6 years and 6000 posts...    i see...

how about:
permissionless, trustless, uncensorable, borderless secure and safe transfer of value.
unconfiscateable, immutable, truly decentralized and safe store of value.

lots of slick buzzphrases and matching graphic elements

I feel like I was just sold a shamwow

lol, a shamwow coin is a great idea.  I'd buy one, for the hell of it.

As for the "value" of alt-coins, I believe they serve an important purpose.  They are an incubator for experimental algorithms, like a large and wild ecology of untested possibilities.  Most have failed, but so what, every now and then you'll get a good idea to survive.  And if its good enough it can get absorbed into bitcoin.

Thus, I see the alt-coins as part of a large infrastructure beneath bitcoin.

[Hueristic]

Bitstamp adding Tether
https://twitter.com/WhalePanda/status/1128049374645428226

WhalePanda deleted the tweet?

I thought it was a joke, Is it real?

Stranger shit has happened.

[jojo69]

[JSRAW]

stop buying this fuckin and this damn bitcoin and crypto ..
are you crazy??8000 usd per btc !!!
bitcoin will crash under 2000 very very soon

dont buy guy ..when no one buy they will stop their fake
and cheat pump